posted
So, I'm finishing up typing this one out from a hand written manuscript so not sure of the wordcount yet, I'm thinking about 7k. This piece features the same characters as "Ben and Jenny", but is, I think, a bit more focused. Comments on the opening are good, full reads are better, totally happy to do crit exchanges.
Hmm...I might just make Purple Haze the actual title...
Edit: Could I please get 7000 words added to the subject? Oops. Was remembering the old days.
Ryan was so absorbed in what he was doing—standing at the stove in nothing but a backwards Ghost in the Shell cap and a “Kiss the Cook” apron, singing along with “Baba O’Riley” on his ipod and flipping pancakes with his mind—that he didn’t even notice Kyle come into the kitchen.
He turned around and the stocky young bassist was standing beside him, still half asleep, dressed in a pair of shamrock-pattern boxers, his red hair disheveled in a highly irresistible manner.
“Oh, hey babe,” Ryan said, pulling the earbuds from his ears. “I’m making pancakes with butterscotch bits, just the way you like ‘em.”
“Mmm, butterscotch,” Kyle replied blearily. He yawned like a huge sexy kitten, then noticed what Ryan was wearing.
Version 2
Ryan was so absorbed in listening to “Baba O'Riley” while flipping pancakes with his mind as an exercise in magical control and focus that he didn’t even notice Kyle come into the kitchen. He turned around and the stocky young bassist was standing beside him, still half asleep, wearing a pair of shamrock-pattern boxers, his red hair disheveled in a highly irresistible manner.
“Oh, hey babe,” Ryan said, pulling out his earbuds and grinning at the sight, “I’m making pancakes with butterscotch bits, just the way you like ‘em.”
“Mmm, butterscotch,” Kyle replied. He yawned like a huge sexy kitten, then noticed what Ryan was wearing—nothing but a backwards Ghost in the Shell cap and a “Kiss the Cook” apron.
posted
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Individuals and social pleasantries.
"Purple Haze" cannot but allude to what the Jimi Hendrix song of the name relates. Part inspired by Hendrix's fear a woman put a voodoo love spell on him, part inspired by science fiction Night of Light, Philip José Farmer, 1966, and about the delirium of "love" and unsatiated lust vice, not glorification of psychedelic drug use, the common mass culture perception. Albeit a psychedelic-rock love song.
Pleasantries starts do little, if any, of the above, least of all the contained delirium chaos of psychedelic genre expression.
If a title immediately develops into thematic subtext relevance within a few words of body content, the title starts at least emotional equilibrium upset movement. "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been," Joyce Carol Oates, does so. The title emulates a parent's concern for a semi-independent child's social activities, also alludes to the Book of Judges: 19:17, New International Version, "When he looked and saw the traveler in the city square, the old man asked, "Where are you going? Where did you come from?" The Book of Judges and Oates' short story theme-topics are closely related. Plus alludes to controversial New Feminism views of human sexuality's privileges, responsibilities, and, explicitly, horrors.
Likewise, the Oates' short story starts from a far remote, detached narrator, as this fragment does, and incrementally closes narrative distance to danger-close personal and private, and continues emotional disequilibrium escalation throughout, which this fragment doesn't develop -- an allegory for human realization of sexuality from puberty's naive innocence through to all that masculist hetero-dominant human sexuality entails.
Pleasantry starts are among the least engaging for me.
posted
For me, the start of a story should reveal something of either setting, character, (dramatic) tension, (dramatic) want, or foreshadowing of conflict to come. All this start did for me was to send me searching for a quote which immediately came to mind after reading this submission of yours: “Drama is life with all the dull bits cut out.” Alfred Hitchcock.
I was bored witless. Where’s the drama? All I got were the dull bits.
I know this isn’t what you, or anyone else, would want to hear, but it is my honest opinion. Sorry.
Phil.
[ November 21, 2018, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
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quote: "Purple Haze" cannot but allude to what the Jimi Hendrix song of the name relates. Part inspired by Hendrix's fear a woman put a voodoo love spell on him, part inspired by science fiction Night of Light, Philip José Farmer, 1966, and about the delirium of "love" and unsatiated lust vice, not glorification of psychedelic drug use, the common mass culture perception. Albeit a psychedelic-rock love song.
Well, the (for a while) antagonist of this story takes on an alternate, purple form when emotionally distraught or angry (and Hendrix also identifies anger and the color purple in "Axis: Bold as Love," so it fits with that.) Also, my late father was a guitarist and idolized Hendrix, so that sort of thing does tend to occur to me.
quote: Likewise, the Oates' short story starts from a far remote, detached narrator, as this fragment does, and incrementally closes narrative distance to danger-close personal and private, and continues emotional disequilibrium escalation throughout, which this fragment doesn't develop -- an allegory for human realization of sexuality from puberty's naive innocence through to all that masculist hetero-dominant human sexuality entails.
Soooo...is that a compliment or a criticism? It certainly wasn't intentional, but it sounds pretty neat and somewhat fitting. I'm just not that closely attuned to the 1001 flavors of POV.
quote: I was bored witless. Where’s the drama? All I got were the dull bits.
I know this isn’t what you, or anyone else, would want to hear, but it is my honest opinion. Sorry.
Nothing to be sorry for. Honest personal opinions presented as such are one of the main things I look for in a critique (right now I just wish I could get them for entire stories instead of little bitty pieces of them.) That being said, I am curious about something and please do not take it as being an attack on your opinion because it isn't...
quote: For me, the start of a story should reveal something of either setting, character, (dramatic) tension, (dramatic) want, or foreshadowing of conflict to come.
Admittedly there is neither conflict nor the foreshadowing of it in this opening-that starts to show up a little later. However, it seems like it has a pretty good dose of character and also setting/worldbuilding/genre tag (flipping pancakes with his mind.) So I am curious, do you not feel that these elements were present, or did their form in this instance just not interest you?
I would have to do some pretty serious contorting to get the conflict into the first 13 here, my intent was to "hook" (to the extent that I ever go out of my way to "hook") with character and genre tag elements, so I need to know how people perceive (or don't) those elements.
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posted
The Oates story's seamless, progressive narrative point of view transitions complement the dramatic movement of a naive young woman's internal journey toward sexual savvy. Four distinct narrative points of view from start to end, ever closer narrative distance, and the remote, detached start of an outsider looks in for a character sketch, anecdote event and setting vignette attend, though emotional equilibrium upset from the outset, fits the story to a theta. That is, the narrative points of view transitions are part of the dramatic structure, too.
No pleasantries, no nonstart, no boring parts, irrespective of a remote, detached narrator summary and explanation back-story tell at first. The remote narrative distance, detached start fits the viewpoint agonist's sexual naivete and blissful innocence, in that the traditional narrative point of view is equally of a seeming innocent naivete, though a subtext of ominous upset, soon further emotional equilibrium upset. Events upset Connie's naive sexual awareness, to which she "wises up"; narrative distance progressive close movement attends her wisdom obtainment as like sexual awareness self-obtained.
This fragment signals little, if any, of that initial upset movement process. If given the whole, say, as part of a collected work or digest, I still would not be an engaged reader enough at the start to read past the first few lines.
If a start promises little, if any, movement by any means, that signals a whole would not, either. Too much to read and other everyday life pressures to spend time on a nonstarter.
posted
A short story of a quiet start, gay fiction, example of excellence, "Territory," David Leavitt.
The New Yorker, May 31, 1982, subscriber archive access, first openly gay New Yorker story, first debut of Leavitt fiction, top of the market at the outset; first anthology Family Dancing: Stories, Knopf, Random House, 1984; Bloomsbury USA, reissue edition June 3, 2014, Kindle edition available from Amazon $; Internet Archive free digital library loan available to registered library card holders (free); Worldcat: 106 editions published between 1983 and 2014 in 11 languages and held by 1,281 libraries worldwide; winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award, short fiction collection, 1983, advanced review copy distribution.
The story's movement is somewhat quiet overall -- on the surface; a subtext potboiler, though. The narrative is as much or more about Neil's mother Mrs. Campbell as about viewpoint persona Neil, a specimen and visitation shapes type, per Jerome Stern's shapes. Third-person omniscient limited to one agonist, attached narrator, remote to close narrative distance range, open-ended end, yet full closure, and several exquisite dramatic pivots (plot twists).
The title is found about halfway, within a dialogue line of Mrs. Campbell's: "It goes with the territory." The story is about private boundaries, a mother's tolerance for a grown son's breeches, and utter trespasses thereof.
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quote:Well, the (for a while) antagonist of this story takes on an alternate, purple form when emotionally distraught or angry...
You know this is going to happen. But does the reader? No. So all the linkages this evokes when you read it are missing when the reader does. And in any case, by the time they reach that part of the story they will have forgotten you said it. Remember, your reader may be with you for only a few minutes per day, on the bus or at lunch.
And in any case, this is not your story, You're neither in it nor on the scene, it's the protagonist's story. So your intent is irrelevant. Remember, when it's read, all the reader has to draw in is what the words suggest to them. And suppose they never heard that piece, or that band?
Look at this from the reader's viewpoint:
quote:Ryan was so absorbed in what he was doing—standing at the stove in nothing but a backwards Ghost in the Shell cap and a “Kiss the Cook” apron, singing along with “Baba O’Riley” on his ipod and flipping pancakes with his mind—that he didn’t even notice Kyle come into the kitchen.
The purpose of this line is to place Kyle and Ryan in the kitchen for what follows. We can do that if the line is reduced to no more than:
Ryan was so absorbed in what he was doing that he didn’t notice Kyle come into the kitchen.
eighteen words as against fifty-three. So the line reads 2.9 times faster. Let's look at the necessity of those extra thirty-five words.
You tell the reader what's on the hat and how it's worn—visual detail in a medium that does not reproduce vision, and which both characters are ignoring as this scene begins. Had he been wearing the hat with the bill forward, or had it had none, would the story changed? No. But if you leave it in the sentence takes longer to read, and so, has less impact.
You tell the reader what's printed on the apron. Who cares? And if his state of dress matters, someone will comment on it, or react to it, and the reader will know. If not, why does it matter enough to report? Doing so slows the read of the line and interjects you into the scene. And with you on stage, if the characters don't turn to you and ask who you are, how can it seem real?
You tell us that he was "singing along with “Baba O’Riley.” Do you require your reader to have your taste in music to make sense of this story? If he's singing, that sets the scene and develops character. What, he's singing, is relevant to the story? The fact of it, the type of music, or the song choice. You don't say. And if the one entering the kitchen doesn't comment on his choice of song, why waste the readers time talking about that they're ignoring? If he's going to comment why waste the reader's time informing them twice?
And who cares that the music comes from an iPad? Would the story change in the slightest if he used a different brand, or if it was on the TV or radio? No. And if not, why show the read to tell the reader that?
So in the end, you include visual detail the reader can't see and unnecessary detail that takes up more space in the sentence than what actually matters to the characters.
The problem is that you're thinking in terms of telling the reader a story—as a storyteller. But that places you front and center—someone the reader can neither see and hear. That means there's no emotion in the storyteller's voice and no emotion imparted through the storyteller's performance. That reduces the text to a report: This can be seen...and this happened...the importance of that is...And then...
How can that be anything but boring? Your reader isn't interested in what happens. That's plot. Story lies in the protagonist's emotional response and decision-making: their viewpoint.
What was Ryan's emotional reaction to turning and finding Kyle at his elbow. Did he smile or frown? What does he notice about Kyle first? That's what causes him to respond. And if we're to live the story as the protagonist, and feel what he feels, don't we have to know that before he responds, so we understand his motivation in acting? Readers are method actors, and need motivation if they're to [I]be{/I] the character.
The short version:
You're using the tools of the storyteller in a medium that doesn't support them, and overloading the reader on visual detail that that would be picked up in an instant, as background detail, in parallel to what matters to the characters. In parallel mediums, liken stage, screen, and life it works. But on the page, where you must spell everything out serially, it does nothing to move the plot, develop character, or set the scene meaningfully. In other words, it slows the narrative.
Take some time to learn what publishers see as tight, interesting writing. We didn't learn those techniques in our school days. After all, to write like a pro; to please the reader (or that acquiring editor) the way the pros do; we need to know what the pros do, and spend some time acquiring those tricks of the trade. In fact, the only short cut I know is to get to it before those bad habits harden to concrete.
I know that's not something you want to hear. Not after the hard work and time you've spent. But think about a few facts. In our public education days we learn no professions. Does it make sense, then, to believe that we learned the writing skills of a professional fiction writer there, and need no more? If we did, wouldn't most new writers be new high school grads? Or if not them, given that we get out writing skills from our teachers, If what we learn is what we need, and teachers, know it better then most, wouldn't most writers be teachers? But neither are true. And while it might sound reasonable that we learn by reading, do we learn to cook by eating? Consuming a produce tezhes us to appreciate well done jobs, but does not give us the professional tricks necessary to create that product.
My point: Pick up some good books on the subject. As Wilson Mizner observed, “If you steal from one author, it’s plagiarism; if you steal from two, its research.” So do your research. It will help give your words wings. There are no fixed rules (other than things like not starting a sentence with a comma), but there are lots of useful techniques worth learning about, because you'll never correct what you don't see as a problem, and you can't use the tool you don't know exists.
Lots of people have different favorite books on the subject. My personal is Dwight Swain's Techniques of the Selling Writer. Perhaps it's because it was only after I read it that I made a sale, but several others I've suggested it have duplicated that feat, and I don't argue with success.
Sorry for any pain. Definitely, though, hang in there and keep on writing. If nothing else, it keeps us from wandering the streets mugging little old ladies at night. Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: You know this is going to happen. But does the reader? No. So all the linkages this evokes when you read it are missing when the reader does. And in any case, by the time they reach that part of the story they will have forgotten you said it. Remember, your reader may be with you for only a few minutes per day, on the bus or at lunch.
Not sure why you're bringing that into our conversation, since the bit you quoted was just me telling extrinsic why I was considering "Purple Haze" as a permanent title.
quote: And in any case, this is not your story, You're neither in it nor on the scene, it's the protagonist's story. So your intent is irrelevant.
Oh, is it now? I would say that since it's the only thing I can actually control, my intent is quite important. A great deal of art is in very large part a form of communication...the creator of the art is attempting to communicate something to those who see/read/hear/whatever the piece of art, whether it's a message (social commentary etc), a particular idea (scientific ideas, philosophical concepts etc) or a mood or feeling or, oftentimes, various combinations of things. However, since people communicate, perceive and comprehend differently, you're never going to succeed in getting exactly what you were trying to get across across to everyone perfectly (or even at all.) This is why when I critique people's work I like to know/find out/intuit as much as I can about what they are trying to accomplish with the story so I can help them achieve that, instead of just trying to make it into something that fits my preferences.
quote: Remember, when it's read, all the reader has to draw in is what the words suggest to them. And suppose they never heard that piece, or that band?
So, I'm not allowed to make references in a story to anything that won't be familiar to every reader?
quote: No. But if you leave it in the sentence takes longer to read, and so, has less impact.
You mean less impact for you (and those who share your tastes, perceptions and opinions)
quote:You tell the reader what's printed on the apron. Who cares? And if his state of dress matters, someone will comment on it, or react to it, and the reader will know. If not, why does it matter enough to report? Doing so slows the read of the line and interjects you into the scene. And with you on stage, if the characters don't turn to you and ask who you are, how can it seem real?
So, only first person and extremely close third person points of view are ever acceptable in a story?
quote:You tell us that he was "singing along with “Baba O’Riley.” Do you require your reader to have your taste in music to make sense of this story? If he's singing, that sets the scene and develops character. What, he's singing, is relevant to the story? The fact of it, the type of music, or the song choice.
It's interesting, because I've known a lot of folks that would call doing what you appear to be suggesting here "talking down to the reader." There are those who feel that the reader should be allowed to draw there own conclusions about things like this rather than than being informed of it (I'm not saying that's what I think, I'm just illustrating how people have different opinions and viewpoints.)
quote: And who cares that the music comes from an iPad? Would the story change in the slightest if he used a different brand, or if it was on the TV or radio? No. And if not, why show the read to tell the reader that?
So...the music is supposed to just come from nowhere, because nobody cares where it's coming from? Whatcha wanna bet, if I didn't mention the source of the music, somebody would ask, "where is the music coming from?"
quote: So in the end, you include visual detail the reader can't see and unnecessary detail that takes up more space in the sentence than what actually matters to the characters.
I think what you're really saying is what actually matters to you, which is fine and indeed what I'm actually looking for-but just state it as what it is, an opinion (and a totally valid one) instead of trying to speak, in absolute terms, for all readers in the Universe and my characters.
quote: How can that be anything but boring?
Probably by way of how different people have different opinions (and again, I am happy to hear yours, my problem is that you seem to conflate your opinion with a universal fact.)
quote: Your reader isn't interested in what happens.
The only problem I have with this sentence is that it begins with "you're reader isn't" instead of "I'm not."
quote: That's plot. Story lies in the protagonist's emotional response and decision-making: their viewpoint.
Story lies in different places for different people. It really really irritates me when anyone tries to make objective, factual statements about "what a story is," or what something must contain in order to be a story. Realistically, most stories (be they in the form of short fiction, novels, scripts etc) contain characters, plot, setting, mood, ideas etc etc and pretty much need all of those things, especially the first 3, to function and the differences lie mainly in degree of focus-some stories are focused on character, some driven by plot, some mostly exist to explore an idea or concept (which may often be strongly linked to setting/worldbuilding) and in many all these things may be too closely tied to even begin to separate them. And with some, one or more of those elements may be absent, or may strain the definitions of those things to the breaking point. But they are all stories. I don't believe anybody has the right to try to say "story is this" or "if it doesn't have X, it isn't a story," without adding "to me/in my opinion/etc."
Also, I personally care very much what happens in a story. Now of course, if a particular aspect of a work is just really amazing, it will often make up for weaknesses in other areas. For example, Joss Whedon's Buffyverse has some worldbuilding flaws that irritate the crap out of me, but, his strength of characterization makes up for it. Sometimes it's the other way around. In a lot of high fantasy, character isn't so much emphasized but my interest is held by the epic events and in-depth worldbuilding.
Anyway, what you're basically saying here is, character and character arc are the things you care about in stories and you dislike those where that isn't the focus. Not everybody feels that way.
quote: You're using the tools of the storyteller in a medium that doesn't support them, and overloading the reader on visual detail that that would be picked up in an instant, as background detail, in parallel to what matters to the characters. In parallel mediums, liken stage, screen, and life it works. But on the page, where you must spell everything out serially, it does nothing to move the plot, develop character, or set the scene meaningfully.
While I don't challenge your assertion that it doesn't work for you, a character's appearance can, to many of us, say quite a bit about that character. All the details you mention that I should get rid of are intended to (and for me as a reader, and other readers as well) help establish Ryan's personality (indeed that's a big part of why people dress as they do-to express things about themselves to the world.) Same thing with things like actions (singing) and taste in music and all that sort of thing. Again, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't. But not everyone is you, and there is more than one way to skin a Displacer Beast. A writer has many tools at his disposal to accomplish any given goal and none of them are going to work on everyone.
That being said...
quote: What was Ryan's emotional reaction to turning and finding Kyle at his elbow. Did he smile or frown? What does he notice about Kyle first?
I do in fact think I will be incorporating some more of this type of characterization into this scene. However, there are those whose preference in what you're describing is exactly the opposite of your own. For example, I know of at least one pro editor (the guy who runs Beneath Ceaseless Skies, his name escapes me just now) who is obsessed with close POVs and being "in the head" of the character, but who has specifically stated to me his dislike of using the type of expressions and reactions your talking about to show emotion. He wants what the character is feeling to be stated directly.
quote: Take some time to learn what publishers see as tight, interesting writing.
Again, you're speaking to me as if I haven't done this. In doing this, what I unsurprisingly discovered is that publishers/editors are individuals just like the rest of us and as such have varying opinions on what is interesting. Therefore, instead of trying to create works that I may or may not even like myself in order to fit some nonexistant universal standard, I write what's in my head and shop it around until it finds its audience. And I seek the opinions and views of others on my works, in order to try and make them as close as I can get them in the eyes of as many as I can to what I see/feel in my mind. Not to have people tell me what "my reader" or "the reader" wants, but to get their personal perspective.
quote: After all, to write like a pro; to please the reader (or that acquiring editor) the way the pros do; we need to know what the pros do, and spend some time acquiring those tricks of the trade.
From what I can tell, most of what most of the pros do, and advise others to do, is to write what they want to write, to learn all the tools a writer has at their disposal and use them to achieve whatever their storytelling goals are.
And of course, they show great persistence and, ultimately, what amounts to enormous luck.
quote: I know that's not something you want to hear. Not after the hard work and time you've spent. But think about a few facts. In our public education days we learn no professions. Does it make sense, then, to believe that we learned the writing skills of a professional fiction writer there, and need no more? If we did, wouldn't most new writers be new high school grads? Or if not them, given that we get out writing skills from our teachers, If what we learn is what we need, and teachers, know it better then most, wouldn't most writers be teachers?
I never had school days public or otherwise, so your mild fixation on that doesn't really apply to me. I learned writing from a lifetime of reading, by doing it, and through giving and receiving criticism through this and other writers communities. I have read some books on writing as well, but I feel that practice and crit exchange are ultimately the most helpful.
Also, a great many writers are in fact teachers, so make of that whatever you will.
quote: There are no fixed rules (other than things like not starting a sentence with a comma),
That's a bit odd, since while you haven't used the word, your whole post essentially consists of you trying to tell me the right and wrong way of writing and what is and isn't a story and what the (apparently singular and identical) "reader" wants and other absolutes (in other words, rules.)
quote:because you'll never correct what you don't see as a problem,
That's because it isn't necessarily a problem. We're talking about art and entertainment, which are inherently subjective. It isn't science. It isn't like building a boat, that either floats or doesn't (and behaves the same way for anyone.) Any given story is going to float for some and sink for others, no matter what.
You talk a lot about "the reader" and "your reader" but once again I remind you I am a reader. An avid, life-long one. I attempt to write stories that I would want to read and since I am not so egotistical as to think myself unique, I'm pretty sure there are other readers who share my tastes. Which are actually pretty broad. Indeed, it seems that our real main difference/point of contention is that I like a wide variety of story types and writing styles and you have a narrower range of likes and have come to the conclusion (seemingly; I can't read your mind, I'm just going by your statements) that those are the only ones that constitute real/good/publishable stories.
I respect your opinions and feedback...I just wish you'd remember that they are yours, not everyone's.
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quote: Oh, is it now? I would say that since it's the only thing I can actually control, my intent is quite important.
When you release your words to the world, you, your intent, and everything about you becomes irrelevant, because the reader has only the placement and selection of your words, and what those words suggest to them, based on their background and experience, not yours.
Sure, when you read it, it makes sense, because for you, every line calls up images, ideas, and background that reside in your mind. Added to that, your intent shapes and supports them. The reader? For them, every line calls up images, ideas, and background that reside in your mind.. No one cares what your intent is because you’re nowhere near when the words are read. They care what matters to the protagonist and the other players—and must, or they’ll not turn the pages. A list of what happens, and what there is to see informs, but it doesn’t entertain. And that matters because the reader is with you to be entertained
But if your characters are plot devices that you’re talking about—placed and moved to illustrate a point—everyone will speak with your voice, think with your mind, and behave according to the needs of your plot, not their personal needs and perceptions of the situation.
quote:A great deal of art is in very large part a form of communication...the creator of the art is attempting to communicate something to those who see/read/hear/whatever the piece of art, whether it's a message (social commentary etc), a particular idea (scientific ideas, philosophical concepts etc) or a mood or feeling or, oftentimes, various combinations of things.
And mashed potatoes have no bones. Both are true statements, and both are irrelevant. Making a blanket statement that elevates all attempts at writing to the status of “art,” and then proceeding as though that confers any status to your writing is a specious argument, if for no other reason than that “art is in the eye of the beholder.” Once again, you’re making the assumption that writer’s intent is relevant to reader’s enjoyment. Simply put: performance wins the race, not intent.
quote: So, I'm not allowed to make references in a story to anything that won't be familiar to every reader?
Not if you hope to get a yes from the publisher. Specifically:
To the reader unfamiliar with The Ghost in the Shell, the reference would have zero relevance so far as setting the scene, developing character, or moving the plot. Hence, it’s clutter that serves only to slow the narrative and dilute inpact. In fact, given that the reader, at this point, knows nothing about either character, why would what they’re wearing matter to that reader? Instead of telling the reader that he's reading only an apron, let the other character notice and react. As Mark Twain observed: “Don't say the old lady screamed. Bring her on and let her scream.”
And will the reader care which song is playing if the characters don’t react to the fact it is that song, and not another? Assume that the reader hates that song, for reasons of their own. You’ve just made that reader frown at the opening lines of a story you hope they will pay to read. Not the best sales pitch.
quote:You mean less impact for you (and those who share your tastes, perceptions and opinions)
No, I mean less impact on the acquiring editor you hope will send you a contract. Every unnecessary word you remove makes a story happen faster for the reader. And impact is a function of velocity. Bear in mind that this isn’t my viewpoint. As an example, from Dwight Swain’s, Techniques of the Selling Writer:
Impact.
Timing, word placement, makes a world of difference, whether in a joke or in a story.
Thus, “Sympathy is what one girl offers another in exchange for details” makes a good gag-line, because the punch, the unanticipated twist, is at the very end. Would it be as amusing if you said, “When one girl offers another sympathy, the details of what happened are demanded in return?”
The technique of building impact is a fine art indeed. One wrong or extra word inserted, or one key word misplaced or left out, and what should be a bomb can sound like the backfire of a car a block away.
Perhaps the best way to learn timing is to practice telling jokes.
Don’t just repeat; experiment with your phrasings endlessly. It may make your friends groan for a while, but every laugh you coax will increase your skill at adding impact to your copy.
quote: So, only first person and extremely close third person points of view are ever acceptable in a story?
The person you tell the story in is irrelevant, and an authorial choice of pronoun. There is not the smallest difference between:
Jack walked to the garage to get the car. And He walked to the garage to get the car. And I walked to the garage to get the car.
In all cases the same person did the same thing, as reported by someone not on the scene. So the viewpoint is that of an external speaker whose voice and the emotion in it, cannot be heard. But, the difference between showing and telling isn’t a matter of visual detail, it’s being in the protagonist's viewpoint instead of the narrator's. Only the narrator refers to the protagonist via personal pronoun. To the one living the story, as it us to us, life is first person present tense. That person getting the car isn’t thinking, “I am getting the car…I am getting the car…I…” Unless something happens on that trip to the garage, does the reader care where the car is parked? Do they care if he walked or trotted? Aren’t they more interested in something related to what matters to him as he walked, like, “As he waked to get the car, Jack thought about what Susan said. Clearly, she…”
To make the reader live the story, as opposed to hearing about it second hand, in the words of Sol Stein, “In sum, if you want to improve your chances of publication, keep your story visible on stage and yourself mum.”
quote: It's interesting, because I've known a lot of folks that would call doing what you appear to be suggesting here "talking down to the reader."
“A lot of folks,” aren’t that acquiring editor you hope to impress. Go with the pros. You may not agree with their advice, but it works for them. And in the case of the acquiring editor, or reader in the bookstore, let me quote Sol Stein again: “A novel is like a car—it won’t go anywhere until you turn on the engine. The “engine” of both fiction and nonfiction is the point at which the reader makes the decision not to put the book down. The engine should start in the first three pages, the closer to the top of page one the better.”
With all that visual detail the reader can’t see and hasn’t been made to want, the starting point of that “engine” will be delayed. Your potential reader arrives with mild curiosity that you must turn to active interest, because it fades, word-by-word. And if the point where the reader says, “Hmmm…tell me more,” is delayed past the “put it back on the shelf” point, your audition was a failure.
The whole purpose of this thirteen-line business is to show the importance of setting hooks early. Knowing that such-and-such is written on an apron, what kind of hat is worn, and what brand of device is playing a song the reader can’t hear, are detail, not hooks.
quote: So...the music is supposed to just come from nowhere, because nobody cares where it's coming from?
Assume I open a scene with,
“Hey Sue, I really like that song,” Jack called, as he searched the fridge for a snack. "Play it again when it finishes."
Do you would need to know the kind of device playing the music, the song's name, who plays it, and the brand of player? No. Why? Because the story belongs to the protagonist. And since that protagonist appears to be Jack, all that matters to the reader is what matters to Jack in the moment he calls “now.” How can we feel we’re living the story if someone not on the scene stops the action to talk about things the characters aren’t paying any attention to? That’s a report—a history. And who buys history books for entertainment? Some I suppose, but the market is small.
quote: Whatcha wanna bet, if I didn't mention the source of the music, somebody would ask, "where is the music coming from?"
How much? Any stakes you care to. Why? Because they can’t ask you anything. You’re not there when it’s read, and no one is going to write to you asking that question. Of more importance, were these thirteen lines to be part of a submission, the rejection would have come out of the drawer at the end of the first sentence because you’re thinking cinematically, and including irrelevant visual detail.
Remember, in the film version that plays in your head as you write, those visuals are noted in parallel with what matters to the story, like the way they look at each other, their body language, and everything else visual. So that secondary detail is gotten in an eyeblink. But the page is a serial medium, and the reader must plow through the words one-at-a-time. That’s not just slower, it’s hugely slower. So we come to another quote. This one from Jack Bickham, who held the title Honored Professor: “To describe something in detail, you have to stop the action. But without the action, the description has no meaning.” And in this case, you spend far more time on what could be seen than what the protagonist is noticing and reacting to. What matters to that character as he enters the kitchen? Not the apron, he’s probably seen it before. Same for the hat. And while he can hear the music, ands perhaps react to it, he doesn’t focus on what plays it unless it in some way matters to what’s happening. By mentioning it, specifically; by taking up more of the reader’s time with that than the action, you make the player the hat and apron seem important to the story, and something the reader must remember. But they’re not.
Story happens. It’s not talked about by a voice no one can hear. It’s not presented in overview and summation. It’s lived in real-time.
quote:I learned writing from a lifetime of reading, by doing it, and through giving and receiving criticism through this and other writers communities.
That’s like saying I learned cooking through a lifetime of eating, or house construction technique by living in one.
Consuming a product teaches little about the decisions the one creating it had to make, and where.
Try this: Ask ten friends what’s different about the first paragraph of every chapter in half or more of the fiction in the library, and they won’t be able to tell without looking. Some of them won’t see it even when it’s in front of them. And if we miss something so obvious how much that’s not obvious did we miss? Will we learn the necessity and role of the short-term scene goal? Will we know why most scenes end in disaster for the protagonist? Will we learn why a scene on the page is so different from one on stage or screen? Probably not.
Simple truth: pretty much everyone who turns to writing fiction loves reading. So if we learned what we need to write fiction by reading it, why would universities offer four year degree courses in writing fiction? Why would the rejection rate be 99.9%? Why would publishers/agents declare fully 75% of what’s submitted, “unreadable?” (their term, not mine)
Another quote. This one from the great Ernest Hemingway: “It’s none of their business that you have to learn how to write. Let them think you were born that way.”
And if someone at his level thought it was a skill one had to learn, who are you or I to argue?
But I suspect I’m only upsetting you with this. And my goal certainly wasn’t to do that, so I’ll wish you luck with your writing career and bow out of this discussion.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016
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Uh -- writing program degrees come in several sections: BA, two-year junior-senior concentration; BFA, four-year concentration; MA, two years course work; MFA, three years course work, largely considered the terminal degree. Ten or so U.S. universities also offer a creative writing concentration PhD of four or so years study. None guarantee publication success, rather, the opposite too often transpires, that more than a few publishers reckon a creative writing degree is an impediment to artful craft.
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[QUOTE] None guarantee publication success, rather, the opposite too often transpires, that more than a few publishers reckon a creative writing degree is an impediment to artful craft.[\QUOTE]Of course they don't guarantee success. No professional training guarantees anything but that they will give you the tools. Using them professionally is your job. As for publishers expressing a dislike, no acquiring editor, or agent rejects a work because they notice that the query said they had a CW or MFA, any more than do you get or lose an acting job because of a degree.
It's performance that you're judged on. In our case, the writing sample either garners a call for the full manuscript or it doesn't, based on if the writing, itself, entices.
And as for CW degrees and most MFA's, I agree that most are not helpful. As Flannery O’Conner, said, “Many a best-seller could have been prevented by a good teacher.”
I don't generally recommend them because most focus on the literary genre, which helps little when your goal is to write a more commercial genre. But that being said, the basics of writing fiction, the character-centric and emotion-based skills we don't learn in our public education years, are taught there, early. And they appear in any good book on fiction writing technique. And where they not necessary, most new writers would be new grads from high school. And to take the view that none of what's taught is necessary is refuted by the fact that every time I do an analysis of the tip sellers on the NYT list, without exception, those at the top who have a Wikipedia entry showed a background that include training in the area of writing fiction.
Of more relevance, so far as a degree being useful, there has been a trend to offer a specialization within the MFA on commercial fiction. Oklahoma University is one. University of Southern Maine established the Stonecoast MFA back in 2002. Seton Hill University offers a Master of Arts in Writing Popular Fiction, as does Western State College of Colorado. Emerson offers one online.
There are not too many, but they are out there.
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Several many fantastic fiction screener-editors, who shall not be enumerated per moi, claim an MFA or similar entered onto a query is grounds for reservations or worse. CV structure criteria lists after all other pertinent query content beforehand anyway, so, obviously, a degree obtains little influence in the first place.
The guarantee lack is a manifold nexus of publication industry, program, concentration, culture, society overall, and to a given individual, not solely an absent warranty certificate's assurances of competent manufacture.
Education CV listed as part of a writer's encyclopedia biography is another matter, of benefit to the public agora, that glorifies more so survivorship bias than degree necessity or publication success guarantee.
And every program produces and perpetuates instructors who forbid fantastic genre, perhaps convention-based genre, too: romance, mystery, thriller, western; and instructors who don't, or tolerate or define limitations, or encourage whatever.
Moi? AFA, BFA, and MA, from distinguished in their own rights programs, one of which globally recognized. Altogether which more so surveyed a gamut of further independent study pathways than comprehensive essentials and crucial options. And as much or more from Hatrack revelations as from writing program studies. It was a start of an itinerant sojourner's sacred Poet's Journey. You derive gain from the effort you invest, irrespective of a program's reputation or instruction caliber. Such is the artist's writing life.
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Posted a second version. Mostly the same stuff but in different order and with a few substitutions/additions
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