posted
Right now, I'm looking for readers to read the whole story and tell me specific things to improve. I would also welcome feedback on whether the first 13 lines make you want to read more. Plus, once people have read the whole story, I could use some help with a title. Thanks.
UPDATE: I've finished editing the full story, at least the first round. I'd like people to read the whole story and offer critique of anything that doesn't "work", i.e. too slow, not believable, not enough external stimuli for MC.
Also, I'm working on a different title, so I have a few ideas that I'd like to run by those who are willing to critique the whole story.
UPDATE: New title - "Baby Steps"
**** Version 1
Sam opened his planner. Somehow, seeing “library” in only one of the hourly slots made him feel a little better. That blank space from 11:00am onward represented an oasis of solitude. All he had to do was go in there, find a book, find a seat, and start reading. Don’t even worry about talking to people, Jim had said. Sam set a timer on his phone. One hour. Could he start it now? Did this count? Or did he need to wait till he got inside? What did Jim mean by “spend an hour in public”? What would Jim say if he did it wrong? There it was again. The anxiety, his heartbeat going faster. He was overthinking things again. Sam walked across the parking lot. He jumped when some kids ran
**** Version 2
I knew I was wasting gas, but I couldn’t bring myself to turn off the car. The red brick library loomed over me. I opened my planner. In the 10:00 am slot, I had written “library”. If I could make it through that hour, I could spend the rest of the day in solitary peace. If I could make it an hour in the library, maybe someday I could hold a conversation. Then I could talk to potential employers, landlords. I could move out of my parents’ house. I felt queasy. My heartbeat sped up, making my hands shaky. I glanced at my planner where I’d written, “just focus on today” during last week’s therapy session. Just take one step at a time. All I had to do today was go in that library, find a book, sit down, and start reading. Don’t even worry about talking to people, Jim had said.
**** Version 3
I was wasting gas, but I couldn’t bring myself to turn off the car. The red brick library loomed over me. I opened my planner. In the 10:00 am slot, I had written “library”. If I could make it through that hour, I could go home and have the rest of the day to myself. I jotted down “freedom” at 11:00 am. I set a timer on my phone. One hour. That’s it. Then I was out of there. Last week at therapy, Jim had said to just focus on the next baby step. He’d listed my goals on his legal pad: independence, a job, moving out of my parents’ house. Under my goals, he had written “job interview”. “Sam, you’re not gonna get a job interview if you can’t talk to people. And you won’t be able to talk to ‘em if you can’t even be around ‘em.”
posted
I really, really wish I had better news, especially given the work and time you've put into this. But, the problems begin early, I'm afraid, and are structural. They're not a matter of your talent or potential as a writer, though. They stem from a common misconception: We all leave school believing we learned how to write, and that since writing-is-writing, what we need is practice, a knack for storytelling, a good plot idea, and a healthy dollop of luck. So in what I'm about to say you have a lot of company. And, the solution is pretty straightforward.
So, take a deep breath:
quote:Sam opened his planner.
You begin reading with the full knowledge of who Sam is, what's going on, and where we are in time and space. So for you, this line points to knowledge and image that's held in your mind. But what about the reader? They have only what the words suggest to them, based on what the words suggest to them. So for them, this line points to knowledge and image that's held in your mind.. And given that you're not there to explain when it's read...
Remember, your intent never makes it to the page. Nor does your tone of voice, or your visual performance as a storyteller. And given that the reader won't "see" the things you mention because our medium doesn't show visuals, fiction for the page requires a very different approach. What constitutes a scene on the page is very different from one on stage and screen because of the difference strengths and weaknesses of our medium from other media. For example, on stage a scene is usually the action related by time, or location, while on the page it's more often a unit of tension—and even that term differs in meaning from the word "tension" in everyday speech.
In short, because you're missing the specialized knowledge of the fiction writer, and are doing the best you can with what you currently posses, there are problems for the reader that you, the writer won't be aware of. For example:
quote:Somehow, seeing “library” in only one of the hourly slots made him feel a little better.
Look at the unknowns that your reader faces that you don't:
• He could be teenage, a young adult, or a grandparent. Which he is makes a huge difference to a reader's perception of the scene. • This might be taking place on Earth, another world, or in space. That gives ambiance to the scene that matters. • Sam could be the protagonist or a minor character. • Sam could be in an office, working, or almost anywhere else.
Because you have intent and context, this has perfect clarity as you read. But the reader? Not so much.
I know this is absolutely horrible news, and not something you expected, especially so early in the story. But as I said, it's both fixable, and a common problem. And if you are born to be a writer, the learning will be fun.
The problem stems from the fact that while our teachers don't mention it, the purpose of public education is to prepare us for the needs of employment. Remember all the reports and essays you were assigned? They were to teach us the basics of nonfiction writing, which we need when working in industry and commerce, as most people do. The goal of that style of writing is to inform the reader clearly, and concisely, so it's both fact-based and author-centric. And in this opening you, the author, are explaining the story to the reader—reporting it, just as you've been taught to do.
But why do we read fiction? Primarily for entertainment. And reports seldom entertain. To move someone emotionally the writing needs to be emotion-based. To generate an emotional connection to the protagonist it should be character-centric. It should center on the protagonist's view of what must be done, and why they feel it must. That way the reader's reactions and perceptions are calibrated to that of your protagonist.
Everyone in a given location will experience the same thing, but how they perceive that, and what they conclude, differs for each person—which is why the reader needs to know that, not the bare facts. I'm sure you've heard the old saying about a couple having an argument, in that there's his version, her version, and what really happened. As writers we don't focus on what actually happened, because our protagonist will act according to their version. And if the reader is to become our protagonist, emotionally, that's what we need to provide.
And how much time did our teachers spend on how to do that? Mine spent zero.
The fix is simple: add the professional fiction-writer's tricks of the trade to your present writing skill-set.
Unfortunately, while it's a simple answer, it will take time, study, and practice to make those skill as intuitive to use as the skills you spent so many years in school practicing. But since it's something everyone faces on the way to publication, it's no big deal. And, the knowledge you need can be found in the local library's fiction writing section, online, and via workshops, seminars and retreats.
A good first book, one I often suggest to people in your situation, is Debra Dixon's, GMC: Goal Motivation & Conflict. It's a warm easy read, like sitting with Deb and discussing writing. You can download it from any online bookseller, or in hard copy from Deb's site.
The local library's fiction writing department is also a great resource, with the views of successful writers, publishing pros, and noteworthy teachers there for the taking. Hours spent there are a wise investment.
So, I know this is not what you were hoping to see, and having been there more than a few times, I know how something like this can feel. But keep this in mind: If you write just a little better each day, and you live long enough...
Hang in there, and keep on writing.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016
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I’ve found that I must be a very forgiving reader because I’m usually willing to read on for a few pages before I give up on something.
While it is true that I don’t know much about Sam(age, ethnicity, location, or even species) I was able to be pulled in enough to understand that he has major anxiety and someone is trying to help him with it.
One thing that I think some might point out is that the last 13 sentences are almost all short, with an average word count of six words. Some will say that makes it feel choppy and rushed, but I felt it gave a sense of what Sam was dealing with. Now if that is what you were going for, then it is worth looking at it, and if small sentences continue too much it would become tedious to read.
That being said, I’m not a great writer and I hated English class in HS due to all the rules that they made us follow. Pretty much, all the reasons that Jay points out above pushed me away from writing, until the stories in my head cried out louder and louder to written down to a point where I couldn’t ignore it.
So take my feedback for what you will. If I find that my schedule over the next week will give me the time to read more, I will come back and ask for the full story. I’m just not sure how much time I will have as I start full time student on top of full time employee, husband, and father.
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posted
One of the hardest things to do in any first thirteen lines submission is to evoke in the reader a connection to the character. I found myself connected to Sam and hoping things would work out for him. Well done. But now the really hard work starts: Can it be better, sharper, more elegant and more intense?
Jay made some valid observations that are appropriate in some circumstances; not in all circumstances. In my opinion I have all the information I need at this particular moment to connect with Sam and his dramatic want: His name, his gender, his rising anxiety and his attempts to reduce the urge to panic. Time, age, place, ambience, mood, setting and passers-by are all irrelevant when it comes to being connected with Sam and wishing him the best. There is time for all that ‘scenic’ baggage when it’s needed. It is my opinion it isn’t needed right now.
posted
An agoraphobic individual and informal public immersion therapy, an individual and social alienation theme in general.
The above are dear to me. . . .
Wow, an actual implied complication, realized, intimated and eminently inferable: not declared. Plus implied conflict, likewise undeclared and inferable. Exquisite. Tone, somewhat realized, under-realized, though.
Huh, about two thousand words, suggests this is for a writing program's workshop assignment, perhaps for a literary journal submission. Two thousand or so words fits length parameters for each. Commercial digests, four or so thousand words up to about eight thousand; flash's venues, about a thousand words maximum. Longer prose, niche target markets or book lengths.
The close narrative distance, or "internal conflict," too, is a convention of program and journal narratives, that and experimental prose. A common shortfall of the type, on the other hand, is excess hand-wrung ennui and angst, often due to too close and too soon a danger-close narrative distance, before a causal relationship establishment.
The former, experimentation, occasions some altogether new methods and such under the Sun or Moon or heavens or hells, or some extant method and expression extended further, or some freshly rearranged extant method and expression, each noble by each's own rites, and, of course, program platform apprenticeship's already extant method and expression mannerisms, new to an inexperienced prose writer who debuts practice applications for workshop's focus group function, as well noble.
A standout method and mannerism of the fragment is its internal conflict and close narrative distance apropos of "literary" prose; experimental fiction, that is. Those two facets are among the more difficult challenges inexperienced prose writers encounter, mimesis's in-scene show methods, that is. For the fragment, aptly managed mischiefs, that is, yet shy of proportionate and relevant external sensation detail specifics. Emotional thought given within a vacuum of external sensation cause and effect is from a disembodied mind, perhaps a dissociative affect apt or inapt for an agora-mania immersion therapy situation, and challenges, jeopardizes willing suspension of disbelief.
This -- all but stuck in a fishbowl of the mind. Very few external, antagonal, causal, tensional, artful, subtextual, specific details given. This -- not quite stuck, actually, rather, a foray outside the proverbial fishbowl of the agora-mania trapped mind. Hence, wants external sensation proportion essential to the true substance of the story.
External sensation details authenticate a narrative's reality imitation. Though fiction's overall and short story favored third-person, close, omniscient psychic access limited to one persona -- the closeness is apt for the other attendant authentication facet: consistent narrative point of view and viewpoint that establish narrator identity, of the focal agonist's received private and personal reflections and estrange the narrator in favor of the focal agonist masterfully. The fiction favorite due to that narrative point of view is a "metaphor" for first person's personal immediacy, intimacy, and subjectivity though benefits from third person's occasions for varied narrative distances, external and internal, and by-default objectivity. Those are third person's artful flexibilities and strong or strongest appeals, short prose especially.
Subtext expression affords occasions for external sensation details, actually, the other way around from a writer perspective, external sensation detail is a vehicle for subtext significance expression.
The agonist here is entirely inside the self at an outside social performance space. Outside a library, an actual outside -- outdoors -- space, a social space, an agora. Does not Sam encounter folk who harsh his mellow? And does not the agora situation trigger hyperactive situational awareness? If yes, how might an economy of words, a very few, express his external situation and his consequent social anxiousness, yet without estrangement from his internal space and agora-mania consciousness?
Two insertion locations for consideration; what about the library exterior reflects the situation? Also, this tells in summary his emotional state, albeit subjected to transformation, hence, an apt mite of dramatic movement: "The anxiety, his heartbeat going faster. He was overthinking things again." Too "on the nose," perhaps, for the anxious situation. Plus, if recast, consider revision for more dynamic voice, less, if at all, to be and past and present progressive tense static voice ("was overthinking").
Anxiety triggers manic thoughts, too. Somewhat signaled by the syntax shift from, at first, a short simple sentence, longer complex sentences next, then a quick succession of brief rhetorical questions and indicative statements. Masterful use of variant syntax to intimate emotional status flux. If only the context echoed the syntax texture and the true situation's agora mania.
I don't know that I've approached a library without agora mania trepidations and, of course, irrational fears proven valid and behavior accordingly. I am at least high function agoraphobe -- clinical dissociative affect misfunction, actually.
One punctuation mistake: "11:00am" //11:00 a.m.//
Another semiotics -- linguistics -- consideration are the matters of de dicto, de re, and de se expression, respectively, of the word, of the thing, and of the self. A persona's name given as sentence subject expresses a de dicto sense. "Sam opened his planner." "Sam set a timer on his phone." "Sam walked across the parking lot." Each a nonspecific external detail, a narrator's summary tell from far outside looks in upon the scene; actually, "Here to there" mistakes, too, and de dicto, little, if any, subtext significance, three of those sentence and context types.
De re, at least, substitutes personal pronouns for sentence subject names, and third person does so as a substitute for first person pronouns' potential excess perpendicular pronoun "I's" extra lens filters. Another, stronger de re method relocates personal pronouns to sentence object position, without passive voice's static stasis; de se does, too. Albeit, the overt want to introduce the focal agonist's name for reader appeal demands his name given soonest.
For example, //DayPlanner opened to the Friday schedule, mania eased that he penciled a mere hour-long library visit.// "that" the preposition of the verbal object phrase in which the personal pronoun appears. "penciled," a verbal metaphor for a conditional, tentative time commitment, erasable; simple past tense, indicative mood though invisible subjunctive mood. "mere," emotional intensifier, adjective, non-ly non-adverb substitute for "only" (adj, adv, con), a litotes, actually, understatement that affirms and emphasizes the opposite of the word's de dicto meaning. What, an entire hour tolerated in an agora's anxious hell?
Plus, stream-of-consciousness's unconventional grammar from an expected past perfect //he'd penciled// to in the immediate now-moment prose's metaphoric present tense of simple past //he penciled//.
That example combines the context and texture of the first few sentences in an economy of words. Freighted by subtext significance, the illustration offers considerations for revision strategies, especially how external detail specifics, echoes of and echoed by internal sensations, thoughts, and emotions, poetic equipment, linguistics, and grammar compliment each other and, in an economy of word count, express more with less.
"Somehow, seeing 'library' in only one of the hourly slots made him feel a little better." "Some" variants best practice want judicious consideration. Those often intimate a lack of creative imagination. A "Some mistake." "seeing" is unnecessary; readers can and will infer Sam sees "library" without being told so, plus, occasion to excise an unnecessary -ing word. The sentence is wordy, too. Due to the sentence affords a best occasion to introduce Sam's name in a sentence object position, too, that small reader want fulfilled is a timely, judicious, and ideal opportunity.
Example: //"Library” entered for but an hour slot gave Sam some less panic.// Otherwise worth reconsideration of often misused and overused words "but" and "some," those are emotional intensifier uses and emphases, personal, intimate, and apt subtext, again, litotes' understated affirmation of the words' opposite de dicto meanings and apropos of the agora-mania situation.
"Sam at the Library" does little to entice me, little, if any, that an apt title does. If Sam's full statutory given name were used instead, say, Samson, that further intimates Biblical subtext significance (Samson and Delilah parable), besides, that anyway already gives Sam's name up front and obviates it within the fragment at least, except that an occasion for his diminutive "nickname" is apt and timely.
I might could read further as a somewhat engaged reader, intrigued by the close distance efforts, most due to prospects for full realization to come are implied, yet, to me, disorganized dramatic movement and under-realized external-to-internal and also those in mixed proportions.
posted
I'm intrigued and would keep reading. I like how you let me know what's happening with clues. I dislike not knowing what's happening, BTW, but your level of mystery was fine. You successfully put me in Sam's head, which is where I like to read a book.
Small point. I didn't like oasis of solitude. It comes too close to being redundant; I had to work too hard to see how it wasn't. Can I have oasis of safety or something like that? When I think about it, maybe oasis works fine just by itself.
And since we're on that topic, you would prefer the metaphor usually: was an oasis. You can decide which choice is better, I just want to make sure you saw the choice.
posted
"represented an oasis of solitude" is indeed a simile: "represented," direct comparison, indirect allusion to an oasis. "represented" and similar comparison words, resembled, mirrored, echoed, and such for direct comparison senses, are another of simile's less visible signs, other than like and as direct comparisons, indirect allusions.
posted
Didn't really work for me mayflower. I've been two months away from here and have fresh eyes.
I have no idea what this story is leading too. It could be two thousand words of sam just trying to get through the library door for all I know. I have no clue, is it fantasy, sci fi, drama, teen lit? The title and story so far tells me that sam is trying to go to the library. Why should I care if sam gets there or not? So he hates the outside world or has an affliction, so again, is the whole story, him just getting his foot into the library? And Jim, no clue of who jim is to sam, told him to go to the library so he could get out of the house. Why? And why the Library? The place where most people go to escape reality in a book? Why not a coffee shop? Or the grocery store? If he's agoraphobic wouldn't his house possibly be a library already?
Again I have to reiterate-
Is this story just about sam at the library overcoming his dislike for the outdoors and people? because if I had to judge it by the first thirteen that sounds pretty boring to read.
Even if you put in big bold letters on the front - BASED ON A TRUE STORY. It still sounds boring and would be the only thing saying there's something interesting about to happen. So far all I can guess is Sam is not going to like the library and maybe something will happen to change that. A trope - person meets an obstacle and overcomes with the help of a new friend. See new movie of an old movie: aka a star is born. Legendary singer fading out helps new girl with a complex fade in. or Beatles song, I can get by with a little help from my friends, found here - [URL=friend help]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75Oct1Qv8x0[/URL]
You have to give me some clue Mayflower of why I want to keep reading.
Ok I'm going to take my best guess . . .
Sam's really an Agoraphobic want-to-be serial killer, but unless he can overcome his fear of libraries, where his first target resides, he can never fulfill his murderous rampage as the library killer(Because he hates books and the people who read them.) and his mentor Jim has been helping him plan this . . . was I close?
No? Then please write me something more interesting.
posted
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I've been doing some revision on the story. I have a couple of questions that I haven't found answers to yet - 1. How do I send people my story to read if they want to read and critique it? 2. Would you suggest sending the story to those critiquing before or after revising?
Question for extrinsic and EmmaSohan: You both mentioned that you would keep reading, but would you be interested in critiquing the whole story? Thanks, everyone. Very helpful, well-rounded feedback. To Jay Greenstein, don't worry. I didn't come here for pats on the back. I came here to improve and to write. Thank you. Those comments were needed and helpful.
Posts: 298 | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
Sorry if I was hard on you May. I just recently had to take a hard look at my own stuff and take a dagger to it. I'm in the rip the band-aid off mode.
Perhaps it's my own reflection on my recent face my fears moments, of hike/climb up to peaks while I'm afraid of heights. It takes a superpower amount of willpower to face those fears. There was a few times when it felt like an anvil was holding my head from looking up at the breathtaking views, at times it was complete terror. Every ounce of your body feels completely crippled, but you just keep breathing and moving forward, fighting the screaming voices in your head to turn back! You're going to die!
Your description hits all the points, but I don't feel the characters motivation to even attempt this besides what jim says. His doubts, fears, drive, what are they? Try and give your reader a glimpse of something.
I'll mellow out in a week and be back to writing boring posts
posted
The few areas that I noted don't work for me, if accommodated in a subsequent posted fragment revision, might incline me to read a further revised, full version, maybe or maybe not return a response commentary, maybe brief, maybe comprehensive.
In any case, please do not send without a posted agreement and notice on the Hatrack forums. The email address listed on my Hatrack profile page is a genuine dummy account, valid, for disposable site registrations, and a diversion for malicious spammers, a junk catch-all. I rarely read email sent to that address, so advance notice and agreement ensures I look for wanted messages sent to that account.
An inconvenience yet less of one than the persistent nuisance attacks at Troy's walls and personal privacy invasions.
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posted
I've decided that I need to edit my story a lot more before I let anyone read it. Thank you all again for your feedback.
Posts: 298 | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
I didn't think to ask this the first time around, but I'm wondering - does the third person work at all for this story? Should I change it to first person? That would make it easier to communicate Sam's anxiety, but I know that easier isn't always better.
Posts: 298 | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
First person's strengths are its subjectivity and default close narrative distance and access to deep thoughts and emotional expressions. A first-person shortfall is limited persona viewpoint flexibility, limited exclusively to one persona.
Third person's strengths are its implied objectivity and viewpoint flexibility, includes third-person close, limited, which the fragment is, and is a metaphoric substitute for first person. A third person shortfall is its psychic access limitations (limited access to a viewpoint persona's interior discourse), though a surmountable challenge.
Anymore, first person's biggest, commonest shortfalls are from lack of the first-persona agonist character development in every aspect, physical appearance, personality, behavior, motivations, risks, attitudes, etc., in inexperienced hands. If challenges overcome, though, first person is every degree as suited as third-person close, limited to an agoraphobe's immersion therapy efforts.
However, a tangible, material, concrete motivation (complication) and its inherent risks (conflict) are essentials alongside intangibles, and an attitude's tone, regardless of narrative point of view.
A question, why? That is, why venture outside the sanctuary hermitage? An agora-challenged individual's first and foremost coping mechanism is solitary solitude. Why go outside? Maybe, say, motivated to -- what? Why at the library? A library is as safe a place as agora immersion gets, museums, too, maybe parks. So what could Sam's tangible motivation be? An object destination? Maybe he's only gone there to register for a library card, which requires an in-person application to get and then to borrow materials.
Or might Sam's "destination," his tangible goal, be otherwise? What? Why? Maybe how? To meet someone at a "safe" place? Why foremost, what motivates him to leave the hermitage's solitude oasis? Social immersion therapy's intangibleness is secondary to a tangible reason; attendant, yes.
Dramatic movement starts from complication's want and problem motivations.
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posted
Thanks, extrinsic. I'm working on earlier introduction of conflict and on incorporating Sam's motivation to leave his solitude.
Posts: 298 | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:does the third person work at all for this story? Should I change it to first person?
the person you tell the story in is mostly an authorial choice. Only the narrator uses personal pronouns, and the narrator is neither on the scene nor in the story. For the one living the events, viewpoint matters. And for them, like us, life is present tense first person.
We're not telling the reader a story on the page, as s verbal storyteller does. We can't, because how you tell it—your performance—counts as much as what we say. And if we try, the lack of emotion, and the "This happened....then that happened...and here's what that means," approach reads like a report by a dispassionate external observer.
Story lives in the protagonist's viewpoint, and that's unique for each character. When it comes to an argument, I'm certain you've heard, "There's what he says, and what she says, and what really happened." It would seem that we should tell what really happened, and be accurate. But that's the nonfiction approach. In life, and in fiction, everyone has their own unique viewpoint. So, leave that out of a story and it can't read as real. Remember, we make our life-decisions based on our personal view, and interpretation of the situation. Can our protagonist simply act, without our being privy to their viewpoint and seem real?
Unless the reader understands the protagonist's viewpoint, they'll apply their own to the data you provide. That means every reader will get something other than your intent because they will apply their own biases. But...if we make the reader know what has the protagonist's attention in the moment they call now, what it means to them, and why—plus their resources and needs, every reader will hold the protagonist's viewpoint and have theirs calibrated to the protagonist's. A solid viewpoint is the difference between telling and showing.
As E. L. Doctorow observed, “Good writing is supposed to evoke sensation in the reader, not the fact that it’s raining, but the feeling of being rained upon.”
For some examples of how viewpoint changes a basic situation, this might help.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016
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quote:Originally posted by mayflower988: I didn't think to ask this the first time around, but I'm wondering - does the third person work at all for this story? Should I change it to first person? That would make it easier to communicate Sam's anxiety, but I know that easier isn't always better.
The short answer is yes.
Some of your sentences make sense only as thoughts of your main character: "Could he start it now? Did this count?" This isn't a narrator asking the reader questions; it's Sam asking himself questions. That's classic first person.
But "Sam walked across the parking lot" was you as narrator describing what you imagined in your head to the reader. So it fits third person. I'm now seeing Sam as observer.
Authors often put that mix into their stories, so that's not a criticism.
I just think you will like first person and it will work better. But it should be (in my opinion) more than just changing tense -- "I walk across the parking lot" isn't how people think. So it's work to put yourself inside Sam's mind and tell the story from there.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Apr 2018
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posted
I think the story works very well as it is. For me, the use of first person in a narrative is fraught with more drawbacks than advantages. This is why I don’t use it. With first person all you can do is explore your viewpoint character from the inside; his thoughts, emotions and his physical actions. For example, if your character’s name was Randolph and you wrote this:
“Damn!” Randolph’s eyes glazed over.
this would be a break in your first person viewpoint because Randolph can’t see what his own eyes are doing, can he?
Also, any characters Randolph comes in contact with can only be viewed from the outside; what they say and what they do, not why they do it, or what they think or feel. For example, if you see someone crying, do you know why? No, you don’t. They could be happy or sad, but you won’t know which it is unless you ask.
If you have a library nearby, see if they have a copy of Damon Knight’s book, Creating short fiction, ISBN 0-312-15094-6. In it he has a whole section on viewpoint and person, and how they interact with each other. There is also an illustration on page 133 that makes it simpler to understand.
posted
Third person limited, close is my fiction preference in general due to the greater challenges of its full realization result in less common uses than other narrative points of view. More challenge, less common, more appeal.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
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The short answer is that Sam at the Library seems to be a story about what is happening in Sam's head. So first person present will probably work better.
For example, the issue probably isn't what the librarian is truly thinking; the issue will be how Sam perceives the librarian.
I am painfully aware of the limitations of first person present, I usually write in it. It has enough strengths to make that worthwhile.
And, in my opinion, sentences like "What did Jim mean by 'spend an hour in public'?" are "breaks" in third person narration. Why doesn't the narrator know what Jim meant? Why are we accepting the limitation of just Sam's thoughts on the matter?
posted
I submit that it would be worth the exercise to try writing it both ways - not rewriting the 3rd person stuff into 1st person, but writing it new as 1st person.
Then compare them and decide which works best for what you are trying to accomplish as a writer.
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posted
Several considerations for narrative point of view and persona viewpoint.
Narrative point of view is an overall narrative perspective, perhaps of a whole or parts. Viewpoint is to an individual persona, that is, agonists, includes narrator or narrators, and is per each's internal perceives external and internal perspective.
Narrative point of view includes:
Grammatical person, first, second, third (fourth person perhaps)
Grammatical tense, simple past or simple present, other tenses auxiliary
Narrative time, reading time elapsed
Story time, time elapsed within a narrative's "clock"
Subjective-objective span (subjective is to feelings, intuitions, suspicions, etc.; objective is "factual"
Degree of psychic access, none to deep and danger close (thoughts, emotions, internal sensations)
Degree of selective omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence
Tone, attitude toward a topic or subject, pieces, parts, and wholes
Number of viewpoint personas, limited to one, or multiple, may include a narrator if the narrator expresses a personal attitude (thought)
Any of the above might shift to an apt auxiliary aspect. A short composition favors limited narrative point of view shifts; longer compositions, more numerous shifts are possibly apt. Narrative point of view shifts could be apt switches or could be viewpoint glitches. A viewpoint glitch confuses narrative point of view and viewpoint and confuses readers, likely ejects readers from a narrative's non-alpha-reality immersion spell. Artless and inapt, that.
quote:Posted by EmmaSohan: And, in my opinion, sentences like "What did Jim mean by 'spend an hour in public'?" are "breaks" in third person narration. Why doesn't the narrator know what Jim meant? Why are we accepting the limitation of just Sam's thoughts on the matter?
Third person limited, close: the narrator reports the received reflections of a viewpoint persona, which estranges the narrator's perspective in favor of the viewpoint persona's perspective, here, Sam's thoughts, sensations, and emotions.
This is a viewpoint glitch, though: "Sam walked across the parking lot." Narrator report, sees Sam walk from outside of Sam's sensation perspective.
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posted
My personal favourite is limited-omniscient in third person with a sliding narrative (also called psychic) distance. Such a sliding narrative distance allows me to zoom in and out of the character’s head as a scene demands. Because most of my stories include combat ranging from army size down to individual hand-to-hand fights, this sliding narrative distance lets the reader see both the ‘big picture’ as well as experiencing the sights, sounds, smells and sensations the character feels during a fight.
Also under development is a story of such scope and range I decided the only way to tell it in all its complexity was to use a multiple-character viewpoint in third person; think of a War and Peace sized story landscape.
To quote Damon Knight again:
The multiple-character viewpoint is a natural way of writing for me; I use it in preference to the omniscient or limited-omniscient viewpoint because it seems to me that it gives me all the sharp, portraitlike quality of the single-person viewpoint, and nearly as much panoramic wideness as the omniscient. When a story can be told from a single viewpoint, I tell it that way; otherwise I use multiple. This is at least partly a matter of temperament. I like to get as close to the central character as the story will let me--you may prefer to stay back and drift around.
posted
Right, if you only describe what the main character sees and thinks, you can achieve the effect (mostly?) of first person. But you just gave up all of the advantages that the Grumpy old guy cited for third person.
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posted
Third person close, limited occasions "slides" into narrator-agonist perspective, neither absolutely narrator nor viewpoint persona, yet stays in touch with both's perspectives as one viewpoint, most often, viewpoint agonist foremost, little, if at all, narrator foremost or exclusive, though occasions for apt narrator exclusives.
For example, this from the fragment: "Somehow, seeing 'library' in only one of the hourly slots made him feel a little better." An agonist thought, emotion, and sensation though third-person narrator reflection.
Clearer and stronger diction, unique to Sam's perspective and mannerisms, would adjust descriptors' attitudes, shift proportion more toward Sam's perspective, "made him feel a little better" particularly.
//made him feel less outside the body// or //felt more matter of fact, less fictive, as if over and done forever// or way out of proportion from narrator and pure Sam, if he's manic and panicked and disturbed.
//Somehow, 'library' penciled into a mere hour slot, in his own hand, out of plumb, as if a quick memo to another self, felt less far from the safe place.//
posted
In combat scenes, the closer the narrative distance the less narrator tell and the closer the prose approaches first person, immediate point of view. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to combat scenes, it is applicable to any scene containing conflict. The greater the conflict and tension, the closer the narrative distance.
Phil.
[ September 23, 2018, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
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posted
Multiple viewpoints creates more diffused reader-viewpoint persona rapport than single viewpoint narratives' singular rapport, too.
On the other hand, multiple-viewpoint variety might appeal stronger, for longer fiction anyway.
A why for trials of several narrative points of view aspects and varied viewpoints, for one or another perspective emphasis that accesses strongest appeal features without that decision too much diminishes other appeals.
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I have been working on editing this story off and on since the last time I posted. I have added the first 13 lines of the story in its current edited state. (Okay, once I add that last period, the "said" is officially a 14th line.) I'm not finished editing, but right now I'm working on adding more of the external stimuli that I failed to communicate in the first version. I'm also changing my story to first person, at least for now. I want to see if that will better convey the MC's internal struggles while allowing the reader to empathize more with him.
I would like to know if you all think the second version is an improvement. Does it grab your attention better than the first? Do you feel more of a connection to the MC? Thanks in advance.
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posted
I like the second version a lot. It has a good flow, and you get a sense of the characters inner struggle with his social anxiety disorder or agoraphobia or whatever exactly it is.
The only thing you're missing, I'd say, is some indication of genre (if this is, in fact, a science fiction/fantasy/horror story.)
It catches my attention, because I am drawn to stories about outsiders.
I would be happy to read this whole story for you if you wish, especially if you'd be interested in a crit exchange.
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posted
Second version stronger, clearer appeal. One drawback is, except for the red-brick library sensation mention and day planner glance, the whole is internal discourse heavy. Somewhat tell and abstract heavy. More leisure attention lavished on fraughtful and pivotal, tangible external interactions would leaven the internal life's quality and quantity.
Yeah, though, more empathy and vicarious urge connection for the social anxiety to alleviate a bearable degree, though not too easily. Plus, if a noble sacrifice due to tangible personal want satisfaction efforts presents soon or sooner, that would develop more public-life appeals of a tangible want contest at the outset. Plus occasion for dialogue's many pretties. Dialogue and tangible sensation lean, thought and ennui and angst heavy overall.
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posted
I still prefer version 1. When I took my sabbatical from this forum some little time ago I devoted my thoughts to matters of craft; one of them the shortcomings of the first person POV. The following is one of the thoughts that occurred to me and that you have so eloquently demonstrated:
One of the inherent problems in presenting a first person perspective of a character’s complex wants and needs of the tortured soul is the temptation for the writer to wallow in the character’s internal monologues to the exclusion of any dramatic movement or revelation.
In addition, I feel that first person direct perception of events stops the reader from fully imagining in their own mind’s eye the events that are unfolding. In first person you are telling the reader what a character feels and experiences instead of allowing, or encouraging them to see the whole event in their own imagination.
First person robs the reader of a personally immersive experience.
Just let me add this quote from another writer:
quote:...the craftier contemporary novelists usually prefer to tell their stories in the first person, which is simply writing dialogue. In character, as it were, the writer settles for an impression of what happened rather than creating the sense of the thing happening.
Gore Vidal. Forward to Tarzan of the Apes
Just my opinion (plus one other), and I hope it helps.
posted
MerlionEmrys - I would love to do a crit exchange, but I feel like I'm not the best person to ask to do such a thing. If you're looking for an inexperienced writer to read your short story and tell you basically if she liked it or not, then yes, I'm in. If you're looking for someone who can offer any valuable writing advice, it isn't me. Let me know what you think.
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posted
If you can tell me what you like and dislike and why and thrown in a few suggestions, we're good.
Honestly, the experienced writers are often the ones more likely to administer what I call reconstructive criticism, which I do not like at all.
Send me this story, and let me know which of the ones I have up that you'd like-save for "They Got Her" and "Elf King's Tune," because they aren't in sendable form yet.
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