posted
This topic is dedicated to the late Damon Knight, who started a similar discussion on the late BBS GEnie years ago.
I don't particularly think that apostrophes should be destroyed, but I do think they aren't absolutely necessary. I agree with Damon Knight that very little confusion would be created by removing apostrophes completely from the English language.
quote:Plurals and Apostrophes We use an apostrophe to create plural forms in two limited situations: for pluralized letters of the alphabet and when we are trying to create the plural form of a word that refers to the word itself. Here we also should italicize this "word as word," but not the 's ending that belongs to it. Do not use the apostrophe+s to create the plural of acronyms (pronounceable abbreviations such as laser and IRA and URL*) and other abbreviations. (A possible exception to this last rule is an acronym that ends in "S": "We filed four NOS's in that folder.")
Jeffrey got four A's on his last report card.
Towanda learned very quickly to mind her p's and q's.
You have fifteen and's in that last paragraph.
Notice that we do not use an apostrophe -s to create the plural of a word-in-itself. For instance, we would refer to the "ins and outs" of a mystery, the "yeses and nos" of a vote (NYPL Writer's Guide to Style and Usage), and we assume that Theodore Bernstein knew what he was talking about in his book Dos, Don'ts & Maybes of English Usage. We would also write "The shortstop made two spectacular outs in that inning." But when we refer to a word-as-a-word, we first italicize it — I pointed out the use of the word out in that sentence. — and if necessary, we pluralize it by adding the unitalicized apostrophe -s — "In his essay on prepositions, Jose used an astonishing three dozen out's." This practice is not universally followed, and in newspapers, you would find our example sentence written without italics or apostrophe: "You have fifteen ands in that last paragraph."
Some abbreviations have embedded plural forms, and there are often inconsistencies in creating the plurals of these words. The speed of an internal combustion engine is measured in "revolutions per minute" or rpm (lower case) and the efficiency of an automobile is reported in "miles per gallon" or mpg (no "-s" endings). On the other hand, baseball players love to accumulate "runs batted in," a statistic that is usually reported as RBIs (although it would not be terribly unusual to hear that someone got 100 RBI last year — and some baseball commentators will talk about "ribbies," too). Also, the U.S. military provides "meals ready to eat" and those rations are usually described as MREs (not MRE). When an abbreviation can be used to refer to a singular thing — a run batted in, a meal ready-to-eat, a prisoner of war — it's surely a good idea to form the plural by adding "s" to the abbreviation: RBIs, MREs, POWs. (Notice that no apostrophe is involved in the formation of these plurals. Whether abbreviations like these are formed with upper- or lower-case letters is a matter of great mystery; only your dictionary editor knows for sure.)
Notice, furthermore, that we do not use an apostrophe to create plurals in the following:
The 1890s in Europe are widely regarded as years of social decadence.
I have prepared 1099s for the entire staff.
Rosa and her brother have identical IQs, and they both have PhDs from Harvard.
She has over 400 URLs* in her bookmark file.
Authority for this last paragraph: Keys for Writers: A Brief Handbook by Ann Raimes. Houghton Mifflin: New York. 1996.
*The jury still seems to be out on whether URL (acronym for Uniform [or Universal] Resource Locator), the address of a Website on the World Wide Web, should be pronounced like the name of your Uncle Earl or as a series of letters: U*R*L. The information technology experts at the college where I work use the "earl" pronunciation, and one would have to ask why you'd want to say "you-are-ell" when a simple "earl" would suffice. In either case, though, the plural of URL would be spelled URLs. The New York Times, by the way, would insist on U.R.L.'s because their style guide requires that everything be capitalized in headlines and URLS would look dumb in a headline. So use URLs unless you're writing for the New York Times.
I submit that in the above examples of using apostrophes to create plurals the plurals would make sense without the apostrophes.
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited November 20, 2004).]
posted
Since the individual letters, time periods (the 60s) and acronyms don't own anything, I believe it's wrong to use apostrophes. The English language has a history of common usage dictating the rules, but common usage shouldn't be confused with sheer ignorance on a mass scale. Using website instead of Web site is an example of common usage. It should be Ps and Qs, not p's and q's.
But whatever. Everybody ends sentences with prepositions and thinks that's just fine, too.
posted
FETCH!!! I hit something and lost everything I had so painstakingly typed in.
On apostrophes:
Source for my comments in Prowder's thread: Webster's New World Dictionary (1995). Though Webster's II New Riverside Desk Dictionary (1988) gives the plural with no apostrophe. My VERY OLD (1924 or so)unabridged dictionary (The title page and cover are missing so I can't give the title) also gives the plural without apostrophe. <shrug>
It's just that I stumbled over the word for just a moment, wondering if it was a typo, then thought on it for enough moments more to reach for the nearest available dictionary, which gave the plural with the apostrophe.
I quite agree, Kathleen, that the apostrophe can be largely done away with--except in instances in which it improves clarity.
IE. "The dogs feed," and "The dog's feed." Two fragment sentences, of course. But since fragments often appear in dialogue and often appear in fictional narrative, the apostrophe helps with clarity.
So, for me, the apostrophe clarifies that Prowder firmly intends for the word to be plural, and didn't just misspell. No doubts. No questions. Clear. I suppose the difficulty comes with the fact that the word ends in s. Sheep, not ending in s, and being a much more commonly used word than chassis, is a word that we know to be both the singular and plural form, therefore we automatically look to context to decide whether it is being used singularly or plurally. If there are ANY other words in the languag that have the same form for both plural and singular AND end in s, I'd like to hear about them, and hear exactly how one would clarify them as singular or plural--besides mere usage, as usage can often be confused.
posted
To mind one's Ps & Qs is another way to say to mind one's manners (although I guess that doesn't mean it doesn't stand for pints & quarts, but I don't see a connection to manners).
Let's not yet vote the apostrophe off the island.
[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited November 20, 2004).]
posted
I would never vote to get rid of apostrophes in possessives, but I agree that, in almost all cases, they shouldn't be used for plurals (as in " 1890's ").
Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Does this mean it is now a domain for Queens? Surely if you are going to remove the apostrophe the 's' should go with it. I thought the whole point of the apostrophe was to differentiate between plural and possessive. I was wondering if the 1960's bit comes from a shortened form of 1960's decade...
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Nobody seems to have mentioned this so far, but an apostrophe is also used to indicate a contraction. I think eliminating apostrophes could cause some confusion there. Some contractions would be fairly clear anyway (dont, isnt), but some would not (shell, shed, wed, were, etc.) And since contractions usually contain words that are different parts of speech, they would tend to make grammar less clear if they looked like unitary words instead of contractions of multiple words.
Oh, and as for minding one's p's and q's: there are various stories about the origin of the phrase, none of them proven.
posted
We could of course ban possessives, contractions and apostrophes. English is one of the few langauges that uses such constructs after all.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
but keeley, that "X" is not always pronounced "Z"
i can't think of any examples except for romanized chinese right off the top of my head tho, the "X" in those is pronounced as more of a "J" with a very slight "Z" mixed into the "J"... a very interesting sound i might add
of course, most people do just pronounce "X" at the beginning of a word as "Z," regardless of what it is actually supposed to be
posted
I know it's not politically correct, but I don't consider Romanized Chinese part of the Enlish language. Not yet, anyway. Posts: 836 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I'm surprised at how long it took anyone to mention the possesive and contraction usages. For those, the apostrophe should probably sick around. As for plurals? I couldn't care less if I never saw it again Besides, not all words (as Dakota pointed out) need an "S" to become plural, and some, such as dish and church, require the addition of an "ES" and we would never even think of wrting out dish'es or church'es.
Posts: 1473 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
> One commonality among the varying versions > of the phrase's etymology is that the > words are plurals, not possessives. > > So, in no case would they take an > apostrophe.
Except that using an apostrophe for the plurals of individual letters is legitimate, and helps avoid confusion.
Sure, there might not be much confusion when writing about ps and qs, but when you start writing about as, is and us, there's a problem.
It is actually how I recall that "its" has no apostrophe. I think of it being a genitive case pronoun, analogous to "his" and "hers".
But I find not using contractions rather unnatural. I almost put two in this post.
The only really good reason I can think of to get rid of apostrophes is because they are hard to input using graffiti on a PDA. I always wind up with a "-". I think "-ough" is much higher on my list of things that English could do without.
[This message has been edited by franc li (edited November 27, 2004).]
quote:Except that using an apostrophe for the plurals of individual letters is legitimate, and helps avoid confusion.
On the contrary. That is exactly what is creating confusion, because nobody seems to know when it's accepted and when it's not. If we all followed that apostrophes were only used for contractions and possession, then things would be simpler.
[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited November 27, 2004).]
posted
> On the contrary. That is exactly what is > creating confusion, because nobody seems > to know when it's accepted and when it's > not.
Just because some people are confused doesn't mean all people are.
People misuse commas all the time. Does that mean we should abandon the comma? Of course not. It just means we need to do a better job of letting people know about the rules.
posted
Same argument could apply as to why American English is different to English English with spelling etc.
Color vs Colour Labor vs Labour Check vs Cheque
etcetera.
(And whay does Microsoft refer to it as international english? Arrogant vs arrogant, Oh hang on! Arrogant is the same in anyone's language)
Maybe we should just teach you guys the rules.
But then again, the biggest market wins. Right?
(Please recognise that this is a long string of tongue-in-cheek.)
BTW: There are cultural ramifications or permutations to this debate. Please don't pinch my apostrophe off the key board; I won't be able to write emails to my friend Mr Tuiali'i.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 28, 2004).]
posted
I only use apostrophes for possessives and contractions, regardless whether some rulebooks allow for exceptions. Because different people and different rulebooks disagree on what exceptions are allowed, and it is NEVER wrong to only use apostrophes for possessives and contractions, that is what I do.
I think as long as your story is consistent in how plural apostrophes are used, it doesn't matter. If your work is publishable, your editor will likely dictate your apostrophe rules to you, and you will smile and say "thank you." My complaint was with idiot's who don't know when plural's have apostrophe's and when they don't, so they just use them at ALL time's!