Six hundred and sixty-six posts, I need to get out more.
In Hebrew numerology, six symbolized imperfection, being one less than seven which was the perfect number. Lacking a comparative or superlative, the Hebrews repeated things twice for a comparative effect or three times for a superlative effect.
This imperfection seems an interesting metaphor for life. I do not believe in Satan or in any form of demons and so I hold that all evil comes from human imperfection and that humans created a Hell from their own insecurities and place a demon based on their own evil on its throne.
And yet, here we stand, imperfect as we are, the greatest of the species, but a fluke on a biologic chain, and the only hope for the Earth.
Imperfection is of great interest to me, being seventeen and inherently incomplete. I am not an Existentialist, but I can easily see the appeal in that philosophy, particularly to the young. We do appear thrust into an indifferent existence and a life without inherent meaning, indeed, I am in full agreement with that part of Existentialism. But I cannot agree with the view of how life is made meaningful, by isolation called individuality.
I wish to leave something behind for future generations, but I have not yet crafted anything worthy of this fate, and thus, I remain imperfect.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
You think "crafting something" worthy of rememberance will make you perfect? You strike me as well read, but have you ever read Ecclesiasties?
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Yes, a very early Existential writing. Crafting something of great value will indeed make me a perfect human being, in the classical sense of perfect, meaning complete. The perfect human being is not is not without fault, indeed that might lead to his imperfection.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Something of great value to who? Something that will be remembered by who? For how long? You become complete for 50 years or so, then you and your accomplishments are forgotten. Do you cease to be complete? I gather you don't believe in the immortal soul, so it doesn't matter I suppose. But then, neither would being complete in the first place. How about "The Sea Wolf" by Jack London?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: Ozymandius by Percy Bysshe Shelley
I met a traveler from an antique land Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert... Near them, on the sand, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal these words appear: My name is Ozymandius, King of Kings, Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away."
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Ozymandius built in stone, Shelley in words.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Hammurabi used both Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I wish to leave something behind for future generations, but I have not yet crafted anything worthy of this fate, and thus, I remain imperfect.
This is a noble sentiment, except for the perfect/imperfect phrasing. Creating something worthy to be remembered for generations will not perfect you. When I was your age, I wanted to prove a mighty theorem in mathematics, that would be remembered, at least among mathematicians, for generations. But I had no illusions it would perfect me.
[ July 20, 2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Ozymandius built in stone, Shelley in words.
Keats did both. Graven onto his tombstone is his epitaph:"Here lies one whose name was writ in water."
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:In Hebrew numerology, six symbolized imperfection, being one less than seven which was the perfect number.
Actually, ten is the number that symbolizes completion and perfection. Seven is still entirely rooted in the physical world (although it contains an element of the spiritual), and eight is the symbol of surpassing the physical to the metaphysical.
Six symbolizes the three-dimensional world -- each pair of points is a line, and three non-coplanar lines define a 3-D space.
quote:Lacking a comparative or superlative, the Hebrews repeated things twice for a comparative effect or three times for a superlative effect.
*snort* Who told you that? While it is certainly true that biblical Hebrew (and to a lesser degree, Talmudic and even modern Hebrew) sometimes double words for emphasis, it is not because of any lack of comparatives or superlatives. And I cannot think of a single example where words are tripled (although I can easily come up with half-dozen with doubled). In any case, while numbers are generally represented with letters in Hebrew, they are not words.
Your claim is narishkeit. Do better research.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
This topic shed a lot of light on your New Theology thread. You believe that our works perfect us, whether they be a building, art, or writing. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that you would wish to parade these works before the Divine as a justification for humanity.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
There are many examples in Biblical Hebrew and in Hebrew-infused Greek as in "Holy, Holy, Holy." I have no knowledge of modern Hebrew (or modern Hebrew for that matter, but I have heard the claim I cited cited by many who are authorities on Biblical Hebrew), and I admit to being overly imprecise in my wording, using Hebrew to mean ancient Hebrew.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ok, you are right about "Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh" (Holy, holy, holy). Now come up with a couple more of these "many examples."
In any case, you are completely ignoring my points about Hebrew numerology, and the difference between numbers/letters and words.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: [QUOTE]Your claim is narishkeit. Do better research.
Oooooo, burn!
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: And yet, here we stand, imperfect as we are, the greatest of the species, but a fluke on a biologic chain, and the only hope for the Earth.
The only hope for the Earth to do what, exactly? The planet will still be here, even if we die off. It would continue if we never existed. We do have an effect, but I wouldn't say we're the only hope for the Earth.
Maybe the only hope for ourselves, however.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
(three times, for emphasis)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Ok, you are right about "Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh" (Holy, holy, holy). Now come up with a couple more of these "many examples."
Maybe he was thinking of Shalom Aleichem and Kol Nidre. Yeah, that's it. That's probably what he had in mind. (repeated for emphasis)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Ok, you are right about "Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh" (Holy, holy, holy). Now come up with a couple more of these "many examples."
Maybe he was thinking of Shalom Aleichem and Kol Nidre. Yeah, that's it. That's probably what he had in mind. (repeated for emphasis)
(I meant to double post. Jews always do that for emphasis.)
Posted by Chanie (Member # 9544) on :
He probably heard all of the Jewish grandmothers saying, "Ess, ess, ess."
Pelegius, I am curious about where you learned that.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chanie: He probably heard all of the Jewish grandmothers saying, "Ess, ess, ess."
Oy Oy Oy.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Hammurabi used both
Hehehehe.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: Hammurabi used both
This is by far the funniest thing I've read all day. Possibly all week.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Ok, you are right about "Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh" (Holy, holy, holy). Now come up with a couple more of these "many examples."
Maybe he was thinking of Shalom Aleichem and Kol Nidre. Yeah, that's it. That's probably what he had in mind. (repeated for emphasis)
(I meant to double post. Jews always do that for emphasis.)
If you had REALLY meant it you would have done it three times. What a bad Jew. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
She wasn't THAT emphatic.
Nor is she hunting snarks.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I wish to leave something behind for future generations, but I have not yet crafted anything worthy of this fate, and thus, I remain imperfect.
Too bad you didn't realize the same thing applies for a Landmark Thread, isn't it.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I sense a logical conundrum, Pel. If works justify us before the creator (or the divine if you prefer), and our works complete us, how is it that we can make something that's good enough. As we're actually doing the work, we would still be in a state of imperfection and incompleteness. Only ONCE the work is done (it seems from what you've said) is there a shot at finding out if it was good enough to complete the person and raise them to perfection. Yet, they, being incomplete and imperfect while doing it, must have created a flawed piece nonetheless.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
One of my ID's landmarked at 666. Unfortunately, I can't find it. But I was going to totally wave it around with pride.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
edit: I didn't mean to link to a specific post, that's just how I searched for it.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Yep, this is amusing.
rivka and Tante, have I told you how much I love you lately?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: She wasn't THAT emphatic.
Nor is she hunting snarks.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
You probably get teased in real life, but whatever you are doing, keep it up. You make quite a few claims that I don't agree with. You make many other claims that are objectively false. But, and this is important, even where we disagree on style and substance, I can tell that you are finding your way from a deep place.
In a few years, when you've read more, better works; seen more, better phenomena; and thought more, better thoughts, I have complete faith that you are going to write quite a bit that is worth reading, and maybe even earn a place in immortality.
As an aside, I know you are a latinist, but start up with Greek. For my money, and I've studied both, there is more, powerful work written in Greek.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Your claim is narishkeit. Do better research.
To be fair, I think his claim is narishkeit, narishkeit, narishkeit. But I could be wrong.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oh, I don't think it's really THAT bad. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Tante, have I told you how much I love you lately?
Right back atcha!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Oh, I don't think it's really THAT bad.
Thanks for ruining ruining ruinging my repetition joke! Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
How do you say "Oh snap!" in Hebrew? Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: And I cannot think of a single example where words are tripled (although I can easily come up with half-dozen with doubled).
מלך מלכי המלכים?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I wish to leave something behind for future generations, but I have not yet crafted anything worthy of this fate, and thus, I remain imperfect.
Hmm...
Look outward, angel.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That's not exactly tripled, sL. Or are you going to cite נ נח next? Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Actually, I think things should be repeated 18 times, no? But then, 6+6+6=18!
:shifty eyes:
-Bok
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Pel,
It has been called to my attention that I was a bit flippant toward you in my earlier post and that, this being a landmark thread, I might've done better to address some of your points.
I re-read your initial post and did think that the state of imperfection can persist after even a truly wonderful creative act.
In a sense, I view that as a spur to greater attempts (if not actually greater achievement). It seems to me that there's absolutely nothing wrong with striving for perfection and I wish you a lot of pleasure and success in whatever you create along the way.
Sorry I was less than supportive before. I am interested in the whole conundrum thing, but probalby should've used a different thread to start that discussion.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It actually seemed like one of the few posts here that ddi talk about his points, Bob.
YMMV though. Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Hey Pel, I actually would be interested in your answers to my questions in my second post. Specifically the one about reading "The Sea Wolf". If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. I have a few copies, maybe I could send you one. Get with me via email or AIM if you're interested (I think both things are in my profile).
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Pel, I've been thinking about it, and I feel kind of bad about the derailing of your landmark. I can only hope that you took my lighthearted jesting in the spirit in which it was intended. But if you took offense, I offer my apologies for that.
And now down to the meat of your original post. How is life made meaningful, and how do we achieve perfection? A long time ago, maybe when I was about your age, I also believed that a meaningful life meant making a big deal contribution to culture and society -- like writing an important book or making an important scientific discovery. But my opinion has changed. A meaningful life is one spent trying to do the right thing, trying to heal the world, improving it, even in your small bit of it, so that when you leave, it is better for your efforts than if you had never arrived. And perfection? Although we may strive to improve ourselves, successfully, perfection will always remain beyond our grasp. Even the best of us can find some room to improve, no?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
"Although we may strive to improve ourselves, successfully, perfection will always remain beyond our grasp." I suspected camus to say that "One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
Dr Strangeglove, for as long as are works are known, even if their creator is not. The ancient Icelandic peoples had a saying "Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die; I know one thing which never dies: the reputation of each dead man." This works both within the traditional Norse view of the family saga and in our own saga of civilization. The internet shall make our society the best-documented in the history of the world, and us with it.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:"Although we may strive to improve ourselves, successfully, perfection will always remain beyond our grasp." I suspected camus to say that "One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
But...what do YOU think?
I can't tell if you are lampooning this viewpoint -- that someone could be happy with the struggle even if the goal is unattainable -- or if you acknowledge it as the basic human condition.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Both, Bob, both. Sisyphus, although perhaps happy, performed meaningless actions (of course, Camus thought we all did). Another part of the myth I find more interesting is the simple fact that Sisyphus defied the gods of nature, even if he paid the price for it. Camus's emphasis on Sisyphus neglects Homer, although clearly inspired by him. There is no sign of Homer's rock slipping. In concentrating too much on Icarus, we neglect Dædalus.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
But Icarus is a friend of mine.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Be nice to Pelegius. It is his landmark.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I believe that Sisyphus believed, everytime, that he was going to make it up the hill, and because of Sisyphus' belief, at the time of the action, his labors were not meaningless. You can argue that his travail was feckless. But still, since we talk about the myth today, it doesn't seem that Sisyphus' belief or actions were without effect.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
The myth of Sisyphus does not, for me, fully address the question of whether people are perfectable. What if, finally, Sissy really did manage to complete the task and get that rock up the hill? Does that mean that he has perfected himself? He has no other tasks to complete, nothing else he can do? And how, for that matter, did parking the rock at the top of the hill help anything, anyway?
How could Sis improve his lot? By abandoning his pointless task and engaging in something productive. I mean, you can't blame him enitrely for his plight, the Olympus crowd being so moody and snitty and all, but I certainly wouldn't take him as a role model.
I tend not to base my world view and philosophy on a bunch of Greek myths, anyway. That theology and world view is certainly not my own. I believe that we lead meaningful lives through our deeds. By doing the right thing, as much as possible, we improve the sum total of good in the world. And that has meaning.
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