So here I am, an agnostic/atheist... and sometimes I really really wish I could believe in the divine. I used to be a devote Catholic. My whole family on my mom's side are devote, liberal Catholics from Chicago. Religion for us wasn't just some philosophy, it was a way of life and all kinds of family rituals and events were around it, like everybody getting together at Grandma and Grandpa's house during Christmas to sing through all the rooms of their big house in Evanston. So when realized that religion was no longer possible for me it was tough... because I left what I was raised with and because it was almost like leaving the family.
I remember that for a long time I thought our family was unique in that. I never did see other families do that. Maybe I was just blind or maybe they never shared that aspect when I was around. I think that's part of the reason I love all the Mormons here...because for many of the LDS peeps here they really live their faith with the family and it really is part of the glue for community, etc... Reminds me of what was for us.
I was really devout up to 16 or 17. I was on the parish planning committee, helping to choose songs and readings for each Mass. I even thought about becoming a Priest. Being gay didn't wasn't by far the only reason for leaving the church, though that was a factor. While our school/church was fairly liberal, love the sinner hate the sin kind of thing, it wasn't cool to think of what I was and what I wanted as evil or at the least some deformity.
The main reason for my leaving was because at the core I was a scientist and I couldn't resolve the conflicts between what religion said was Truth and what I saw and studied and knew was true from humanity's experiments and knowledge of the Universe. No was could the world be created in seven days, etc. I won't go into all the reasons as they've been debated ten thousand times already here.
In the beginning I was really militant on my dislike for religion. I would think religious people were fools, that religion was the opiate of the masses, a tool for would-be leaders and con-artists to trick an ignorant population into giving them power. (I still do, but not quite as much)
Then after a couple years of college I softened up a bit. Why? I realized that as I didn't want people telling me what to believe, it was wrong of me to do the same to them. Being a non-believer is tough though. You don't have the psychological buttressing that a religion can give you. But You only have the great unanswered. But I was and am still determined never to fall into the "easy" way out...even though it's painful. And I probably can never go back to being a believer if I wanted to. I know too much. I've rejected too much.
One of humanity's survival traits is to question everything, learn, and fear the unknown. We fear the unknown because it could kill us. So we are afraid of the dark, we look at loud noises, we stare at horrible things... because it might be dangerous and we need to study it in case it might hurt us. And in every age humanity has a limit to our knowledge, and beyond that limit is the unknown...fear. So we make up gods and religion and philosophy to answer the things our science and observations cannot answer yet. And once that void is filled we can go back to the business of living.
But, oh, I wish I could believe again. I am most deeply moved by tales of the divine. The theme I love best in "The Lord of the Rings" is not the Rings, or the Hobbits, or whatnot... but the theme that the divine has not abandoned the world to evil... that the gods still love the world and are actually working in it. The Eagles of Manwe are sent... the Valar march from Valinor to defeat Morgoth... the Ring bearers and the last of the High Elves reach the Pass of Light and see the fields of Heaven.
And in the Matrix when the divine have not forgotten us and left humanity to eternal slavery and indignity... Neo is resurrected to bring freedom to God's children.
In Neo Genesis Evangelion God sends down the Archangels to destroy Man who would evolve himself to supplant God. And in the end when Gabriel himself comes down, bringing the last great song before he destroys Mankind, the divine surrender... for love of us they give us divinity.
I think that's what I long for. Proof that it exists. These stories call to something in me...and when I read them or see them I can enter that universe where God(s) exists and I can feel the horrible beauty of the divine. Something I cannot feel in this world.
The farthest I can go is knowing that Humanity is sacred because of what it/we are... we are the Universe made manifest. We are pieces of the Universe that has become self aware, and as we explore our lives and the world around us we are actually exploring ourselves. When we love others we actually love parts of ourselves. When we hate others we hate ourselves.
We are all little gods that way I guess. I guess it's enough.
PS> Sorry this landmark has been so late. Hopefully my 3K one won't be so behind.
[ May 27, 2005, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It's kind of like that for me, even starting off as religious and being unable to stay in my religion because I just outgrew it the way a snake outgrows its old skin. Plus, it wasn't logical enough and I liked the way holistic concepts felt so much better. Now, I am not exactly an atheist... I have my own personal religion....
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
Sounds to me like God is maybe trying to talk to you. =\ God can answer questions, he can give peace, he can give purpose. Have you tried going to church or anything lately?
Faith is a hard thing to come to terms with, especially if you're heavily involved with science, i suppose. There've been little things I've always had trouble believing, things I've always questioned. Maybe that's why God made me so terrible at science. so I couldn't get too involved with it, and wouldn't question so much.
*wonders if "there've" is really a word*
Sorry I'm not a good advice giver and I'm not good with words. It sounds like you need something. I would try going to church, and if religion is what you need then get it. Try talking to God, he's still in the helping business, you know. And you can work out the small stuff like believing this-and-that story eventually. You don't have to be perfect when you go into it, and you're not going to be perfect even if you're the most devout believer. If you have questions, ask Him. Like I said, he's good in that helping department.
Sorry I'm no help. Good landmark, anyhow.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
The choir that my friend and I founded is in residency at a United Church of Christ.. um.. church. Our "concerts" are usually during their service on sunday, and our Music Sunday event is also a service.
Some old friends from college that I hang with started trying out this Unitarian Universalist Church and I've gone with them once. It was pretty neat. It was actually during May Day so they had a May Pole and did a cool pagan ceremony. They apparently do this multi-cultural stuff all the time.
And when Pope John Paul II died I was glued to the TV for days. Could not stop watching. I really had an attack of nostalgia for the old Catholic Church then...
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
Telpy,
As a landmark critiquer (and chastized for being one), I dare say that sucked. You can wax painfully over your sinful past and it's conniving/conflationary confrontation with religious conformism, but PLEASE... stop with the typos.
my best, you're friend,
alluvion
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Just trying to bear my soul for Landmark's sake. Just telling a tale from my pov. Sorry if it wasn't a literary masterpiece.
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
hey, hurry telperion, and you can ironically get alluvion on a typo
quote:you're friend
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
see where criticism gets you? *tsk tsk*
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Being a believer isn't exactly "easy".
Just saying.
Posted by memory_guilded (Member # 8092) on :
Although I'm not a Mormon, I've always found the religion to be quite appealing. I almost converted, not because I was a believer but because I fell in love with the strong sense of family you just described. Then I realized I was agnostic, but I credit Mormonism for being the only branch of Christianity that reaches the goal that Christ set for us. For Christians to work, live, and love as a big family/community.
As a fellow atheist/agnostic, I agree that it is difficult. During times of strife it's difficult for me to realize that God may not exist, and if he does he probably isn't what we think he/she/it/they are at all.
It's hard, because I would love to convert to Christianity. I'm a big fan of Christ's teachings, and I wish to apply them to my life. But in order to be a Christian, don't you have to believe in God the way your fellow Christians do?
Not that I feel entirely hopeless. I'm from Alaska and sometimes, when I'm near the inlet, staring across the waves at the amazing snow-capped mountains, I think about how there are places that man hasn't even set foot upon, and I think of how, at one time, there was absolutely nothing. That these mountains weren't even HERE, but now they are, and that is a miracle in itself. Sometimes I *don't* need the comfort of knowing God, whatever God is, created us and has a plan for us. Sometimes seeing things for the way they are is good enough.
~M
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
Telperion, no worries. It stunk, though... (FYI)
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
I'm confused at how you guys can want to believe, but yet don't? I just haven't ever encountered that.
"But in order to be a Christian, don't you have to believe in God the way your fellow Christians do?"
What do you mean? In order to be a Christian, all you have to do is admit you're a sinner, believe in jesus christ and that he died for you and i, and confess your sins and be saved. (That's just me and my church.)
Maybe I'm not understanding "believing in God the way fellow Christians do".
I know that my God, while he is the same God, (because there's only one) isn't the same for me as He is for my dad. That is, our relationship is different. I might not be as close with Him as my dad is, and I might not talk to Him as much or in the same way as my dad does. Things like that. (Since my dad is really religious, I used him in that example.)
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Thanks for sharing that memory_guilded. Puffy, I didn't mean to insult anyone's faith or their work in it. I'm giving credit to religion for touching on certain beauties that I sometimes feel I've lost.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
alluvion, I hope you're not fallow... considering I've stood up for fallow on several occasions. You're not being very nice. And if you feel the need to criticize my personal thoughts why not give some actual pointers instead of bad vibes.
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
Yeah.
Bad vibes. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
*injects good vibes into thread*
There. Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
bad vibes? how so?
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
YOU!!!!!
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
quote:all you have to do is (1)admit you're a sinner, (2)believe in jesus christ (3)and that he died for you and i, (4)and confess your sins and be saved.
I believe what is meant was that (1) might be possible, but (2) and (3) are harder to accept theologically and spiritually. Not only do I personally NOT believe that is "All" you have to do, but that (2) and (3) have a lot of strings attached as far as what constitutes "believe in" for those without the faith.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
quote:The farthest I can go is knowing that Humanity is sacred because of what it/we are... we are the Universe made manifest. We are pieces of the Universe that has become self aware, and as we explore our lives and the world around us we are actually exploring ourselves. When we love others we actually love parts of ourselves. When we hate others we hate ourselves.
We are all little gods that way I guess. I guess it's enough.
Not to sound all prosilytising and all, but that sounds like something a Mormon would say. The only addition would be that what we do to others and ourselves, we are doing to God.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I'm sure some Christian stuff is still locked up there in my brain, influencing my ideas and thoughts on what I think is an agnostic worldview. I think all religions have elements of Truth in them... they all touch on Truth but no one religion has it absolutely correct. imho.
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
and the Good News is that God can "take it".
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote: But, oh, I wish I could believe again.
I know how you feel. While I've never been a believer I have moments in which I wish there would be a way for me to find God. I'm quite sure that if I DO find him he will be quite far away from most if not all of the existing religions, but that's as much a guess as me currently saying there's no God. But in the meantime, I'll just go on treating each moment as being equally important; there's simply nothing else I can do. Welcome to my world, Telp! Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Hey Telp.
Thanks for sharing.
While never having grown up in a religion, I understand *exactly* what you mean.
It would be nice to have that surety. But I know, for me (at least at this point in my life) pretending I had it would be - well, pretense.
Good landmark. Sorry you have had to deal with the responses from alluvion that you have had.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
I don't want to believe as much as I want to belong .
I think that for the most part church is a community of like-minded people, and to know that you will never fit with any of these communities is dis-heartening in a profound way.
I've tried church many times and it just feels wrong to me. It's difficult to explain and difficult to reconcile the fact that my spirituality doesn't seem to fit into an organized religion. I wonder if this is how cults are started, not by crazy people, but by people who're trying to find a place where they're at peace...
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
If I belonged to a church, perhaps it would be easier to meet people, but for me, going to church is a bit like hearing beautiful music with off-key notes thrown in. It's jarring and frustrating to me. Still, if I did join a church I think I'd become a Quaker.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: Still, if I did join a church I think I'd become a Quaker.
I do like their oatmeal... Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*throws some good vibes into thread*
*Hugs Telpy*
It may be a stream of consciousness but I think it was beautiful.
Wishing you peace.
AJ
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
*hugs too*
I thought you really captured the yearning caused by the recognition that *we* are not the measure of the universe, but the measurers.
Ignore the silly critics and proseletyzers above... you are way beyond them. Posted by memory_guilded (Member # 8092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tater: In order to be a Christian, all you have to do is admit you're a sinner, believe in jesus christ and that he died for you and i, and confess your sins and be saved. (That's just me and my church.)
I know that my God, while he is the same God, (because there's only one) isn't the same for me as He is for my dad. That is, our relationship is different. I might not be as close with Him as my dad is, and I might not talk to Him as much or in the same way as my dad does. Things like that. (Since my dad is really religious, I used him in that example.)
I am skeptical that God is this Supreme Grandaddy who sent His only son to save us from our sins. The reason I want to convert is because I have a great appreciation for Christ's philosophies, not because I believe in the Bible's dogma. When I read it, I can't help but take it all in metaphorically. I do that with all religions, though. I see religious texts as mere collections of different spiritual perspectives. No one is right or wrong, and no God is the only God. How could I truly convert to Christianity then, if I take the Bible's descriptions of God with a grain of salt?
~M
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
I think you expressed yourself very well.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Telp, I was agnostic/atheistic for 15 years. I was hostile to religion, a full believer it was opiat for the masses, a crutch for people less capable or intelligent than me. It was fine for them, I thought, but please...I don't need anyone to tell ME what to do. For most of those 15 years, I couldn't have believed in God, really, if I tried.
Then some stuff happened over time where it got harder *not* to believe. Before I finally accepted that I believed despite myself, I ran through all my questions, and while I certainly don't have answers for them all, I have enough that I'm content. I'm content to sit with God's answer to Job. It sucks as an answer, but I know from experience as a mother that sometimes I have to give a somewhat similar answer to my children. I accept that it's possible I wouldn't be able to understand the answer if he'd provided it. But that's just me. While I do find my faith in God very reassuring, I also find it to be a damned nuisance. I would really like to just ignore him. And for the most part, I accomplish that better than my conscience likes.
Anyway...I'm glad that you posted your landmark. And I'm glad that you're here on Hatrack. You add a real sparkle to the place. Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Hi Telp!
I can empathize with your landmark. I want to believe because it would give me peace to know that life is all part of some plan, that there's someone I can ask for help and guidance when I need it. Priests, ministers, rabbis, etc. provide the earthly form of this for their members.
What I have settled for is a strong sense of independence, self-confidence and relaxation. I realize I can't do everything, that horrible things happen and it's not my fault, and that I have friends I can depend on. You can have family and community without religion, and peace without a god, and happiness without compromising your truth. It's just more difficult to find that solution when so many other people choose religion as their solution and encourage you to do so as well.
Thanks for your landmark. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
For me, the coolest revelation was when I realized that my religion, as practiced today on the earth, does not claim to know all the answers to everything. We don't try to (as Carl Sagan says) put God into a box. When you can, through study and application of principles, gain the faith in the teachings you've heard all your life and then realize that those teachings are just the most basic smallest part of truth and reality and that you've got lifetimes worth of learning and discovering to do, it really humbles and impresses you. For me, religion is so awe inspiring because it's so big! It fills the whole universe!
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Telp, that was well written. I hope that in time you will be able to find what you seek.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Telpy, that was lovely. I'm very glad to know you, and I'm so glad that you are here. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Wow. Telpy, that last part was just beautiful. I'm glad I'm part of the Universe with you. A lot of what you wrote really spoke to me. Missing the comfort that religion and belief can give gets tough sometimes. Thanks for describing it so well.
space opera
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I'm confused at how you guys can want to believe, but yet don't? I just haven't ever encountered that.
You don't live in a large town, do you, or talk to many non-Christians?
It's not uncommon. It is, in fact, the situation for most of the agnostics here.
There appears to be strong evidence that credulity is genetic, and that a propensity for "faith" is in fact an inborn trait. People without that kind of native trait, then, may well have to work at belief while people to whom belief comes naturally may at worst wind up bouncing from fraud to superstition.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
So if you want to, you can let that desire work in you. There is no defitive proof either way, but lots of things can be taken different ways. If you want to believe, you can test things out.
Belief and faith in anything always starts out as choice. I think the firmer faith comes when that belief is not betrayed - when you hope and look to find good there, and then, you do.
quote:People without that kind of native trait, then, may well have to work at belief while people to whom belief comes naturally may at worst wind up bouncing from fraud to superstition.
This I can easily believe. Genetics is not destiny, though - there are credulous atheists and skeptical believers.
[ May 27, 2005, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Great post Telp. Even though I was planning a similar landmark that I can't use now =P
Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
I think it was very well done. Good luck in what you do.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Count me as a wishful non-believer. I would love to believe to the core of my soul that there is an overarching plan, that my existence is more than a cosmic happenstance. It would be lovely to believe that whatever makes up my being will last forever. I long for the comfort and sense of security that true-believers tell me they posses. Alas I seem unable to make that leap of faith. No matter how much I wish to believe I still feel like it is pretend.
Telp, thanks for sharing. I find comfort in similar thoughts of loving friends and family. Pay no attention to fallow, he is empty and infertile.
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
Where did you grow up? I was never ever under the impression that I had to believe the world was created in 7 days to be Catholic. I think that it's interesting to see how location and different slants can really change a religion, or at least the way a person sees that religion.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
That would be especially weird as the Vatican is completely fine with evolutionary and big bang theory.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Telp...thank you for sharing this. I won't say much, except that I totally know how you feel.
(((Telp)))
Posted by Sartorius (Member # 7696) on :
When the big bang theory first appeared it was scoffed at by the scientific community because it seemed to support a divine creation. I think it's funny how things turn around.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Thanks everybody. Sorry for stealing your idea Pixiest. Sarahdipity, I grew up in Allen Park, a suburb of Detroit. Went to St. Francis Cabrini grade and high schools. They were actually pretty liberal compared to all the conservative stereotypes. They taught us that evolution AND creation were true. That the Bible shouldn't be taken literally most of the time, that much of it was metaphor or poetry or misunderstood. I always thought that was a fairly enlightened way of looking at the Bible. Science and religion don't have to be enemies. As another thread said, if God is the creator of everything then the study of the Universe is the study of God.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I only saw this now. That was deeply touching, so bittersweet. Thank you for your thoughts and insight. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by Occasional:
quote:The farthest I can go is knowing that Humanity is sacred because of what it/we are... we are the Universe made manifest. We are pieces of the Universe that has become self aware, and as we explore our lives and the world around us we are actually exploring ourselves. When we love others we actually love parts of ourselves. When we hate others we hate ourselves.
We are all little gods that way I guess. I guess it's enough.
Not to sound all prosilytising and all, but that sounds like something a Mormon would say. The only addition would be that what we do to others and ourselves, we are doing to God.
It's also not unlike what a UCCer (at least from the congregationalist branch I grew up in) might say.
And it's pretty much the sentiment that pervades most of Kurt Vonnegut's work, particularly in Cat's Cradle.
-Bok
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I'm not sure exactly what UCC is, but isn't there a church that covers various levels of belief, from those that believe that Christ is Divine to those that believe the New Testament is fiction that has some wonderful insights to live by? And that other religious ideals are welcome as well?
I see so many here longing for the peace that religion believes, but they just can't make that leap. Might there be a church for such? Might it bring that comfort and sense of belonging--at least in part since true faith isn't complete?
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Telp, I totally understand the feelings in your original post (happy Landmark, by the way).
I used to feel a little like I wished I could believe. Now, I don't wish I could believe, but I do wish I could feel part of a good, strong, vibrant community like I used to feel part of the Mormon community. Unfortunately it seems to me at this point in my life the price of that feeling would be to voluntarily enter a shared delusion. I'd have to take part in an eternal game of "let's pretend", and that's not something I find appealing in the least, whatever fringe benefits come with it.
For now I'm happy to be myself and share that with those who cross my path. There are a few people I've met this way who appreciate me for myself and don't require me to accept their worldview in order to be worthy of their fellowship. These are the people I consider my friends. It may not be a community, per se, but it's working ok for me.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
http://www.stillspeaking.com/ is the UCC's recent effort to bring in "spiritual speakers". It is based on a quote [paraphrased from my faulty memory]:
"Never place a period where God has put a comma."
We are made up of Congregationalists (the Puritans) and some evangelical German churches. We are "orthodox" in that we are Trinitarian, and confess the Nicean Creed. However, with the strong congregationalist influences, each church is fairly autonomous, and the theology can range from fundamentalist (a small minority) to nigh-Unitarian (a larger, more vocal minority, including the "national church office"). While there is some administrative hierarchy, the national church itself is seen as it's own congregation, and as such has the authority only to speak "to", but not "for", the local churches.
bev, you are probably thinking of Unitarians, which while largely NOT christian in any real sense these days, there are some sub-sects that while unitarian, adhere closer to the older, more congregationalist (unitarians and trinitarians split from congregationalism in the 18th and 19th centuries) form of worship.
I myself am more leaning closer to agnostic these days for similar reasons as mentioned by all the above. That said, I had a wonderful church upbringing, and the feeling of family amongst the congregation is the one that resonates strongest even today.
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I think all religions have elements of Truth in them... they all touch on Truth but no one religion has it absolutely correct. imho.
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