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Well, I don't think I'll get the bonus points but I wanted to cement my membership in the Dagheads by being first to reply Edit: Now I will have to make a voodoo kat poppet.
(I hope you'll be lenient with any housewives turned bankrobbers you encounter. I went to Plaza Jr. High in V.B.)
[ June 08, 2004, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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You know, Dag, I'm not ususally much for the justice system, but you're ok. I've always liked debating with you, but I think this is the first I've really seen how cool you are. Forgive me for not noticing sooner.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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It's people like you who make me feel bad about my chosen career. Way to go, Mr. Big Shot Altruist. Seriously, though, I admire the strength and depth of your conviction, and envy you for having a true calling.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Dagonee, I find your posts thought-provoking when I disagree with you -- and sometimes even more so when I agree. The depth and thoughtfulness of your comments is exceptional, even at Hatrack. And your caring and concern for others is a wonderful thing to behold.
Our justice system needs more Good Guys. And you are definitely one of that number.
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Dagonee, I've always admired your posting style and the calm logic you constantly display. This post just increases my respect for you and your values, and makes me even more glad that you're around.
Good to know there are ethical lawyers (or almost-lawyers) in the world, too.
Happy 3000! And thanks for being here. Posts: 1431 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Dag, I remember when you first started posting on the forum, and it really hasn't been that long ago. It's really cool for me to see just how important you've become to this community since then. (I honestly can't imagine this place without you!) It didn't take very long here at Hatrack, and I know that it won't take very long wherever you go for you to become a necessity in those communities. It's a big responsibility, but you're up for it!
Thanks for your landmark (and all your posts) and here's to saving the world!! Somehow I feel better knowing that you're dedicated to the cause. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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"Dagonee, I've always admired your posting style and the calm logic you constantly display. This post just increases my respect for you and your values, and makes me even more glad that you're around."
Exactly what I was thinking. Lovely post.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Dag, what a great landmark! Such a thoughtful person!
I have a question for you. For some time it has been bothering me a great deal that prosecutors cut deals with potential witnesses. Now it's against the law to bribe a witness, but what do you call it when you exchange some huge favor like a lesser sentence (years of someone's life!) for agreement to testify? Isn't this bribing a witness? I know that without plea bargains the whole system would break down but how can something that's wrong be made right just because the whole system would break down? If it's wrong then it needs to be fixed no matter what, doesn't it?
I know so little about these things but I feel a deep disconnect between my sense of right and wrong and this.
How many times have we discovered years after the fact that someone was wrongly convicted because they confessed after cops and prosecutors told them they would hang if tried, but get only x years if they cop a plea? The boys originally convicted of murdering the Central Park Jogger come to mind, but really the same story plays itself out again and again.
Since this is your chosen field and since you are a thoughtful person, I know you will have some better ideas about this than I. Would you share them with us?
Secondly, when I hear about DNA evidence being destroyed because it might overturn convictions and therefore decrease the public's faith in the justice system I just weep. Isn't there something terribly backwards about such logic? I am coming more and more to feel that there is no justice in our justice system at all. If you have any insights that might help change my attitude I would be deeply grateful. Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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Wonderful post, Dag! You are one of my favorite posters. You will make a great prosecutor.
quote: Criminal defense attorneys must defend their clients, even if they’re guilty. Although there’s some discretion in which clients they take, this is not absolute. They are not allowed to avoid pursuing a defense (short of perjury) because they think the client is guilty or deserves to be in jail. I think this feature of our criminal justice system is absolutely necessary, but I’d be uncomfortable performing that function myself. Prosecutors, on the other hand, have an obligation to take the defendant’s guilt into account.
What if you are asked to prosecute someone you truly believe is innocent? I know that doesn't happen very often, but couldn't it? How would that be different that defense attorneys trying to defend the guilty?
Of course, I don't quite agree with all the negative attitudes you ascribe to teachers. I've seen you post several times that teachers and schools are only interested in teaching conformity and preserving the status quo, and this doesn't seem to describe me or any other teacher I know.
I would say teachers don't do a better job about bullying because they don't know how to. When you're a student, it seems as though the answers are easy. When you're in a position of "authority," you see the downside of every solution you try to implement. Bullying is more prevalent than crime is, and there is rarely any hard evidence. Early in a teaching career, you learn that if you try to act without extremely concrete evidence, the situation will explode in your face. Bullies are typically bullies because their parents enable and support them, and those parents will crucify you for picking on their darlings if you don't have all of your ducks in a row. And once in a while, alleged victims do lie, and once in a while, their memory about how they egged their bully on is selective.
As a profession, we do not ignore bullying. We have inservice training on it, all sorts of contradictory literature crossing our desks on it, etc. In my experience, the "solutions" that are suggested are, like a lot of School of Education theory, off the mark.
Anyway, I don't want to put you on the defensive. I enjoy your posts, and I think we need more people like you as prosecutors. You sound like you will make a great one. Just wanted to remind you that we teachers are human beings doing the best we know how.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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You don't owe me any apology. I tried to couch my single note of dissension in between my general appreciation for your landmark post and your presence here, but I know from personal experience how negative stuff sticks out more than the positive does. (For instance, I notice the hundreds of people who have ignored my landmark more than the twenty who have posted to it!) A landmark post is, aside from you sharing of yourself and making yourself vulnerable, a celebration of all that you have given to the community, and so I apologize for sounding a negative note in the midst of that, and making you feel like you had wronged me in your thread.
I think the bullies in school occupy the same position that petty criminals occupy in adult society. But adult society has a mechanism in place for not ignoring crime: the police, and, of course, people like you! In schools, we may have a dean in charge of discipline, but after that, policing falls to people who already have another, complex job to do. It's like if someone vandalized my house, and I went and complained to my congressman. I'd probably get less justice than most kids get from their teachers.
I'm not trying to make excuses or sidestep the issue or bitch about how hard my job is. I don't see a lot of bullying now because I teach seniors and honors students (and hey, maybe I'm also one of the good ones, but who really knows?), but the thought of it makes my blood boil. A good thing to remember is that, by virtue of the fact that we are mostly oriented toward booksmarts and intellectual pursuits, most teachers (with the possible exception of PE teachers ) were among those who were bullied themselves when they were kids. So they're not lacking in sympathy, but more likely, in knowledge of what to do about it. Keeping kids busy in class (and being observant) seems like a good start, but what to do about bullying in the halls, or at lunch? You can't be everywhere and see everything, and you can't punish when you can't prove anything. And feel-good approaches, like getting everyone to hug and sing kumbaya in advisory classes don't, in my experience, work. Our inability to solve the problem is because we're incompetent, not indifferent.
So I don't have many good answers when it comes to bullying in school, but I cheer you on in your endeavor to put away the grown-up thugs. And I'm not offended, just explaining why we do such a poor job in the schools, and arguing against the idea that it's because we condone bullying, or don't care as long as it makes students into good cogs who all know their places. That's an idea I've seen a few times lately, and I wanted to post to refute it.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Thank you for posting it.
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Seriously, though, I admire the strength and depth of your conviction, and envy you for having a true calling.
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The depth and thoughtfulness of your comments is exceptional, even at Hatrack. And your caring and concern for others is a wonderful thing to behold.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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