A lot of you are aware that last year I started asking questions about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and perhaps noticed that I seem to have started posting as if I was a member. I’ve been rather intentional vague about what steps I’ve taken to join the Church so a lot of you probably think I’ve either joined a long time ago or never joined and fell away. Or maybe not, I don’t know, and for those of you who weren’t aware that I was either ever not a member or ever considering being a member… both are true. And in fact, on Sunday, February 1st I was baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I figured that it would be a good idea to tell Hatrack about it because A) Hatrack was deeply involved with my choice and B) I wanted to write it up and this gives me a really good reason to do so. So me and my lack of literary skills are going to attempt to explain why exactly it is I joined a Church, and specifically the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I was an agnostic all of my life. I recognized I could not know if God existed, but for the most part I was pretty darn sure He didn’t. I tried to keep an open mind and I certainly didn’t look down on Christians or any other faith but I would often join with my Dad in ridiculing those who thanked God on television for things like winning a game or just plain used the word “God” at all. I think I felt (along with my parents) that faith in God was fine, but should be kept to ones self all the time. Kind like an embarrassing secret, you can have it but you shouldn’t be telling me about it.
Memories: When I was little, probably around 7 years old, I asked my Mother if she thought that we went anywhere after we died. She replied she didn’t know. I refused to take that as an answer and pressed my case. She answered, no, she didn’t think there was anything after death.
A little later, I think in middle school, Mormonism came up for whatever reason ( I don’t really remember). I asked my mother what that was and she replied that Joseph Smith went into the woods and pretended to have a vision so that he could have as many wives as he wanted.
My father is a professor of physics, one time he went to a conference at which another professor was explaining the creation of the earth (the 7.5 billion explanation, not the few thousand year creationism). According to him, a short ways into the talk to well dressed men stood up and started asking questions about the Bible and creationism. He described them as a threat, and found it preposterous that they could believe that.
This is certainly not all me memories of my family’s dislike of religion, when you live with people for 18 years you have lots of memories on every topic, especially one as important as religion, but these are the first ones that came to me, and pretty representative of the rest.
That was my background in religion, not really very positive, but I like to think I was at the very least tolerant. Obviously though, there was a significant change between “tolerant” and “believer”. At the time I obviously didn’t realize it but I think I know the point in which I started down the path that led to belief.
It was early 2003 and I was trying to act morally, this was during all that war controversy and I felt like I needed a moral code. I was trying to act morally without any clear definition of morality. Well in a quest to find morality I turned to my trusted friend and ally, logic. I started off with things I knew to be immoral and tried to figure out why they were immoral, and thus understand the basis for morality and be able to come up with an at least semi-complete moral code.
So I started off with the easy one, murder. I knew murder was wrong, it’s one of the few things that is condemned basically in every culture (I’m sure that there are a few exceptions but I would be very surprised if it weren’t the most consistently enforced rule in the world). So why was murder wrong? Well it meant that one life was lost. So why was that a bad thing? What made human life important or special? I could not come up with a good reason. I figured a few theories but they didn’t really work, they were all flawed. Well this cundrum was not easily resolved. In fact, a few months later I had still not come up with a solid reason.
That few months later I read OSC’s Saint’s, which for those of you who haven’t read it is a fictionalized, semi-historical account of an English family that joins the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and travels to America. For some reason it piqued my curiosity, I realized I had no idea what Mormons really believed. Certainly at this time I had almost no interest in joining the Church, I doubt the thought had crossed my mind. I was interested because I didn’t know, not because I wished to join.
Well this is, of course, the point where Hatrack comes in. As some of you may remember I started a thread asking questions about religion in general and some specific LDS questions. First off, I want to thank everyone who answered my questions in that thread, Mormon and non, you were all very helpful, informative, and respectful. Thank-you.
Anyways, a short period of time after starting that thread (say a week) I was all of a sudden considering joining. Not all that seriously, but it was big shift anyways, and I have no idea how it came about, but it did. About one and one half weeks after I started that thread, two sister missionaries tracted into me during one of the very few times in which I was alone in the house.
For those of you who don’t know what that means, missionaries are members of the Church who give up two years (1.5 if they’re female) to serve the Lord. This means leaving your home and spending all your time knocking on doors, teaching those interested in hearing about the Church, or other worthy things (for instance, there are service missions, where you basically perform needed service in the community). Tracting is going door to door asking people if they would like to hear about the Church.
They asked me if I was interested in listening their message. I told them I was but I was pressed for time at the moment (I was about to go give a presentation), however I invited them in and talked for a short bit. They gave me their phone number and I told them I’d call them. It was a pretty amazing experience really. Certainly I recognized that it could be a coincidence, but what a time for such a coincidence!
I knew one person who was Mormon. She was, at the time, not fully acting out the principles of the Gospel. For example, though it was not a habit, she would on occasion, smoke pot. She was certainly not a bad person, and in fact, after she went to college she has fully accepted the Church and seems to me to be completely changed now. However, she was really my only tie in to the Church (in real life anyways, luckily enough I had Hatrack too ).
Anyways, because I thought she may have been the cause of the missionaries visit I asked them specifically about it and they were as surprised as I was (of course they could be lying, but you have to realize that regardless of the truth of the Church, most missionaries really believe it and would not lie because of it).
About a week later I met again with the missionaries, this time at someone else’s house. We had dinner and then did the first discussion. For non-members, there are six discussions for “investigators” (the term for anyone discovering the beliefs of the Church in the possibility of joining). The discussions serve two purposes, to make sure that the investigator understands the basics, and to help them make commitments (like promising not to smoke and drink alcohol and what not).
I kept doing this for a few weeks, I never write anything down so I don’t exact times, or even some more general time scales. However, while meeting with the missionaries was a big help in both understanding the Church and beginning to be able to accept it, that was not the key.
Of course one of the first things the missionaries like to tell you early on is how to discover the truth of the Church. You should consider the beliefs of the Church, and ask the Lord if they are true. If it is true, He will confirm it to you. This is a good promise. You can ask and get an answer, faith is not blind faith, it is simply a knowledge of something strong enough that you are willing to act on it. And asking Heavenly Father and receiving an answer leads to that faith. So I thought that was a very good promise from the Lord, however I knew that there was a problem I would encounter.
I could ask all I want, but unless the answer was given in a very a-typical way I would always doubt it unless I took certain steps to insure that it was a true answer. What I mean is, the way the Lord answers that question (and many others) is through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not appear before you in a vision, nor speak audibly in your ear. You need to recognize the Holy Ghost in your thoughts and feelings.
Now I know a lot of people would see this as a very unconvincing answer. What you have to realize is that receiving confirmation from the Holy Ghost I not going through your thoughts and just picking out ones that come from the Lord, nor deciding which emotions are caused by His spirit. I can say from experience that it is often hard to determine when the Holy Ghost is speaking to you or prompting you (or at least it is for me), but when the truth of the gospel is confirmed to you, it is not just a premonition, or a flicker of emotion. It is a very strong and prevalent feeling, one that I at least had not felt before.
But I’m getting ahead of myself. Before I was really willing to ask for any sort of confirmation of truth I had to do something to insure the answer was true. How did I know it wasn’t my subconscious putting in feelings? How did I know it wasn’t just my body doing what I undoubtedly wanted it to? If I was to be sure of the answer I needed to put these fears to rest. The only solution I saw was to analyze myself in an effort to understand my emotions and be able to track them down.
And that is exactly what I did. Whatever emotion I felt, anger, happiness, peace, anything I would stop and try to logically figure out where it came from, when it began and what it meant. I became familiar with what type actions or situations led to certain emotional responses. In fact, after a time not only was ale to track and understand my emotional responses, I was able to logically control some of them. Anger, for instance, I was able to remove with just a few logical steps. Since I knew where the emotion was coming from I was able to simply remove the cause. Not for everything of course, but for a few emotions.
And once again I’m getting off track. The point is, I tracked down the cause of my emotions to try and make sure that when they came from some other source, I would recognize it. That was half of my … scientific process for determining if what I was experiencing was the Holy Ghost, or my subconscious desire to feel the Holy Ghost.
The second half was trying to simulate those feelings that I had that I felt at least could be the Holy Ghost. I tried various things, and did some combining of those two methods. I’m not going to write it up because for the most part it’s boring and detailed and I forgot the order I did everything in so I’ll just end up confusing myself not to mention you poor people who are actually still reading this! By the way, I’m impressed with whoever is still reading this, have a high-five: *High-fives reader*.
The important thing is that I eventually came to the conclusion that those things that I felt (which also closely mimicked those emotions described by both the scriptures and others who have felt the Holy Ghost) were not, and could not be caused by me. How sure am I of this? I admit to the possibility that I’m wrong, that in fact it is my deviously clever subconscious. However, I am sure enough to act on my conclusion, and that is what I consider to be faith. I think the time at which I knew for sure (had good enough faith to truly act on and believe) was early this last summer. Since then I’ve gone up and down and back again (or something ) and ended up a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints.
Part II of this (which I have not written, I’m not just holding out on you ) will hopefully be more a kind of what I did/what happened story more about events then… well whatever this was about. Until then, enjoy .
Final Note: I've been having a lot of homework and it actually took me about a week to write this and if I went back and read it over like I really should it would take at least another week and I got impatient... sorry.
Hobbes Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hobbes, thanks for sharing. That's beautiful. Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Hobbes, you are a joy to know! <<<<<hugs>>>>> I'm so happy for you! Congratulations!
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Congratulations on your baptism! I'm glad you've found the answers you sought.
[ February 11, 2004, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I have to ask: How did your parents react?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Part II.
Hobbes Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Okay. Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
Hobbes, thank you for sharing that story> I look forward to part 2. Even those of us raised in the Church have to find out for ourselves if the gospel is true.
I hope your belief grows stronger every day.
Congratulations on the baptism. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Would Annie have fallen for a non-Mormon?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I wouldn't know Tom, you should ask her. When she uh... fell for me though the question wasn't if I would join but when if that's what you mean.
Hobbes Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
Thank you for that, Hobbes. And congratulations.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
That is really cool, Hobbes. I can relate. I am "learning" about Judaism as we speak. The things I have experienced while doing so are amazing. But if anyone wants to see the full account, here you go. Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Hobbes: I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but your horns won't grow in for another 3-4 years. You can speed up the process though by getting your home teaching done every month. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What have you experienced, Valentine? Is it similar to Hobbes' Holy Ghost feelings?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
*wonders where Tom could possibly be going with this*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In all seriousness, I'm always interested in people's feelings of faith. I'm a thirsty man looking for water, and trying by sight alone to figure out which is the vinegar.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Tom, in all seriousness, how do your prayers go?
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
No, no "Holy Ghost Feeling" but I have asked myself the same questions about that, I just came to different conclusions, namely, it wasn't the Holy Ghost trying to talk to me. My experiences are that of a sense of belonging and family. People who asked me, "How are you?" and stood there waiting for an answer, and not in that I-Really-Don't-Have-Time-For-Your-Answer-But-I-Am-Making-A-Half-Assed-Attempt-To-Be-Polite, manner, but because they really wanted to hear what I had to say. The first time I went to Temple on Shabbat, I felt like I was home.
[ February 11, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Valentine014 ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Honestly, kat? It depends on what I'm praying for, and to whom.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
How do you feel when you pray?
I mean, if you notice the difference between how you feel when you pray about things, that can be a confirmation of something.
[ February 11, 2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Am I a total geek because I raised my hand up to my monitor to accept the high five?
Hobbes,
Congrats on a number of levels...
1. Congrats on finding something worth doing something about.
2. Congrats of being brave enough to actually do something about it.
3. Congrats for being happy about it. (even if it has only been 10 days)
I am LDS, however, religion more than anything else to me is about being happy. You participate in religion because it brings you joy. Regardless of the denomination, you should be happy where you are attending and with your relationship with divinity.
*anxiously awaits part II*
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I've been semi-following this whole thing from the beginning, and find that 'viewing' a conversion process is quite the fascinating thing.
Thanks for sharing, Hobbes.
Posted by Liquor and Fireworks (Member # 5785) on :
Ever since first seeing you post I've been under the impression that you were already a memeber, all well, whatever. Congratulations, it sure is great to have a confirmation from the spirit isn't it.
Oh, and thanks for the high five. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
In a similar vein, did I ever tell anyone here how close I came to becoming a member of the LDS church myself?
Well, the story is now over on the "How did you choose your faith or lack thereof" thread .
In this thread, I will just congratulate Hobbes on finding faith, as I know its not easy to do.
(and if later posts referring to this one don't make sense, its cause I moved the original post)
[ February 11, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote: The protestant denominations didn't appeal to me because they don't even claim to be divinely inspired
You got this information from where?
Edit: this refers to Xavier's post that was moved.
[ February 11, 2004, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
You know, I think a topic about how you chose the religion, or lack there of, you did would be pretty nifty. Too bad I'm too lazy to start it.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Well, I may have been misinformed, but it didn't seem that either Luther or Calvin claimed that God had direct contact with them.
But really, protestant churches never seemed to appeal to me regardless. Possibly because there are so many of them.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
:wonders how many have converted to LDS due to Hatrack:
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Glad to hear that your faith travels have gone well, Hobbes.
Keep the Faith!
-Bok
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Yay! Thanks for sharing that with us! Honestly, even though I'm among those who know you best around here, it's good to get to hear your thoughts and your personal history. (edited for this: )
quote:Would Annie have fallen for a non-Mormon?
Wow... if that's not a tough question. Hmmmm... I think the answer is: I would have been attracted to someone's personality who was as fabulous as Hobbes regardless of their religion, but taking something to a serious relationship level involves a conceivable shared future. My goals involve raising a family in the church, and I've seen how devastating it can be for children when Mom believes and Dad doesn't. So I've had a temple marriage as a goal for a long time. So perhaps I would have "fallen" for a non-mormon, but it wouldn't have progressed very far if he wasn't open to the religion. Looking back on that, it sounds rather harsh, but I think a lot of people are selective about who they date for much shallower reasons than that.
I've actually had friends chide me about not having a relationship with someone not of my faith. They said I was being way too picky. But really, the lifestyle choices alone, not to mention the life goals of an LDS person, are so radically different from so much of society that it would really make an intimate relationship come to an awkward end. And though there are plenty of LDS people I wouldn't date, that's at least enough of a common denominator to start from.
[ February 11, 2004, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Annie ]
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Taal, I believe two have publically, ak and Hobbes.
-Bok
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
It’s so thrilling to know that you’re lost in the shuffle.
Sorry Xavier. It’s not you, it’s a long term frustration with people assuming they know what “protestants” believe, or even categorizing all of them together.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Actually dkw, I would love to have a chat with you sometime, and you can relieve me of some of my ignorance.
I seriously doubt I would ever become a protestant, but I am always up for learning more about people's beliefs.
Its odd that I know way more about LDS and catholicism than the religion of the majority of my countrymen. Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Yozhik also did.
Black Fox (Paul) was baptised and received the priesthood a few years ago but he's no longer active.
That's all I know about.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Well, I may have been misinformed, but it didn't seem that either Luther or Calvin claimed that God had direct contact with them.
I think that's right, but none of the protestant founders would claim to be the original inspiration for their religion. They would all probably say that the church's inspiration is Christ, and that they are just interpretting His word more accurately. Generally, the idea behind the main protestant churches are that the church itself should not be the focus of one's religion - God and His word itself should be the focus. Whereas the Catholic Church (and I think some others, like the LDS Church) claim a special authority, many of the protestant churches (including my own - Methodism) claim the church is just a sort of guide towards developing your own individual relationship with God, and has no unique authority.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Someone posting as Bokonon saying "Keep the Faith" strikes me as absurdly funny.
Posted by Liquor and Fireworks (Member # 5785) on :
IMO you need to have faith BEFORE testing God, otherwise, it wont really have a lasting effect on you, you most likely will just chalk it up to coincedence.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
It occurs to me that I have been rude – posting in Hobbes’ thread and failing to offer congratulations.
Congratulations, Hobbes. I’m glad you’ve found a religious community where you are at home. Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
must have faith to test god
must test god to have faith
must have faith to test god
must test god to have faith
d'oh.
[ February 11, 2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: celia60 ]
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
quote: The only solution I saw was to analyze myself in an effort to understand my emotions and be able to track them down.
Spoken like a true computer engineer/programmer.
I would like to point to this thread as a reason I come to Hatrack. Like TomDavidson, I'm interested in "people's feelings of faith." To elaborate for myself, even though I'm reasonably sure of my own beliefs, I enjoy learning about other people's beliefs.
Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
Hobbes, I am so very happy for the peace that you seem to feel now in your life. (I also had assumed that you had already been baptized, and I just didn't know. ) Your story is very strengthening to my own testimony, and your faith is a wonderful example to me.
Congratulations! Posted by Liquor and Fireworks (Member # 5785) on :
quote: must test god to have faith
There are many ways of "testing God". For instance, praying and having prayers answered. You probably shouldn't do the "show me the ace of spades" thing, as it probably wont work.
EDIT: I had more points to make, but it is really difficult for me to articulate them.
[ February 11, 2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Liquor and Fireworks ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Yeah, that was mostly a lark. I didn't actually expect to get the card. When I didn't, it wasn't going to prove anything either way.
I would actually suggest not testing him at all. I haven't since then cause I just think its a really cheap and undeserving way to get your faith upheld.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
High five, writer I remember posting to your thread that you had decided to join the church, and that was relatively early in my hatrack career (all 10 months of it.) So I had the impression you had joined shortly after, but I'm glad you didn't rush it and I'm happy for you that you did it.
Pardon if presumptions on my part have advanced the theory that you already joined. I think I recall at least one post on that topic, and someone saying "I didn't know Hobbes had joined " I'm sure you'll hear this a lot, but even those of us born and raised in the church generally go through trials that cause us to have to decide if we really believe in A) God and B) the restoration of the Gospel through Joseph Smith.
This brings up the interesting question of whether the LDS church is protestant. In terms of being a church founded on the idea that the Catholic Church is on the wrong track, then yes. But in the sense of believing we are what Catholicism once was, no.
We have an interesting parable in the Book of Mormon, The Olive Tree that explains why God would let the church of his Son fall away and then bring back a competing church later. I think in the sense of that, LDS is also a protestant church. It is symbolic of many things, including why we are sympathetic to Jews even though we believe in Jesus Christ. We do believe that all our fruits (good works) will be gathered together to honor our Creator in the end.
Edit, my little guy wants me to put this in:
[ February 11, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
Congratulations Hobbes! I'm more of a lurker than a poster in general, but I had assumed that you were a member of the LDS church already. I won't hijack your thread, but I also have recently joined the LDS church because of things I've read here at Hatrack, people I've met here, and reading OSC's works in general. Most of all though, I'm glad you've found a faith that you can be happy with, and I think that's the most important thing to do.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Baptism by water is fine and everything, but now it's time for .....
BAPTISM BY FIRE BABY!!!!!!
**burninates Hobbes**
**shifts into Pat mode**
I love conversion stories, they help me in my goal to augment my faith every single day in one way or another. Hobbes, the Church is better with you in it, congratulations on finding your faith the hard way... by working hard to find it. In my life, this is the only way you can really know if the church is true or not. It's not a sudden thing, it's not something that pops up out of a jack-in-the-box and says 'Surprise! the church is true."
You da man, even if you use all those girly smilies.....
dkw -- I think Mormon's generally agree that there have been men before Joseph Smith, and after Christ that were entitled to and enjoyed direct revelation from God. Martin Luther, Calvin, Handel and I'm sure there are others.
I think what Hobbes might have been trying to say is that the LDS church claims that the interaction with God that Joseph Smith first received and continued to receive through his life has remained continously with the church leadership until this day. If the Church makes a move, it is a result of direct revelation.
My understanding of Protestantism is that they don't claim to have new revelation with God on a continuing basis.
If I'm wrong, I'd like to be corrected.
[ February 11, 2004, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Trogdor the Burninator ]
Posted by Liquor and Fireworks (Member # 5785) on :
Congratulations to you too, Audeo! (and no, I'm not going to insert the group hug smiley)
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Umm, Pat, she was referring to my post over on another thread. I suppose I shouldn't have moved it. Ah well. If more confusion is created, I will put it back here too.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Pooka has a little guy?
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Xavier... direct me. Give me revelation.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
The second post there was my first post here before I moved it. I felt that my post was much too personal for Hobbes' thread, and that it wasn't really in the same spirit either.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Trogdor is named Pat?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Pat, protestant churches do not believe that they have one person chosen/appointed to receive revelation for the whole church. We MOST DEFINITELY believe that God continues to guide/inspire/direct the church.
Posted by Liquor and Fireworks (Member # 5785) on :
Hatrack's logo is a tree?
Posted by Liquor and Fireworks (Member # 5785) on :
Oh no, I'm posting in the purposeful threads, I forgot about my "fluff only" policy.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Ok, now I see it, although I'll leave it here so she'll see my response if she wants to.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
dkw --
See my new thread.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Congratulations Hobbes! I know I made the mistake of assuming you had already joined the LDS church a while back. This was probably exacerbated by references made to you going to church several times on outings with other hatrackers. I think I even asked what your conversion story was after I found out you weren't born into it. Hope I didn't put any pressure on you!
I guess I have just two questions about your story, Hobbes. Let me know if I pry too much into your beliefs.
quote:I started off with things I knew to be immoral and tried to figure out why they were immoral, and thus understand the basis for morality and be able to come up with an at least semi-complete moral code.
Did you ever consider Kantian ethics (i.e. don't do anything to others that you wouldn't want done to you)? It ends up being what I use for morality, being the agnostic that I am. My older brother, a confirmed Catholic, asked me what the motivation was for Kantian ethics. I told him that it was more efficient. It's so much easier when you don't feel like you have to defend yourself against rape and murder all the time. Otherwise, we would all carry around guns and become even more isolationist than we are already. Of course, Christians have an extremely similar version of this from the New Testament - Jesus' new commandment. Kantian ethics is just sans God/religion.
quote:The only solution I saw was to analyze myself in an effort to understand my emotions and be able to track them down.
I like this solution, but I don't think this would be the route for me. First, most psycholgists know that a person can't analyze themselves effectively. I can hide things from myself, I have no objectivity, I skew the results toward what I want to have happen, etc. Second, I couldn't be sure that feelings were connected to the possibilty of God. Third, feelings are so transitory and it's so easy to influence them with music, atmosphere and conditioning that it would be difficult to analyze where all of them came from, although some would be very easy to track down. So I guess the second question is, did you consider having a psychologist help you analyze your emotions? Or would that be out of the question because you think they might have a negative effect on the analysis?
I look forward to the second part of your story!
The rest of this is a remark on protestantism.
quote:Tresopax wrote: Generally, the idea behind the main protestant churches are that the church itself should not be the focus of one's religion - God and His word itself should be the focus.
I agree with this. Martin Luther, who caused the Great Schism (well one of 'em anyway) when he nailed his 95 theses to the church door around 1500 AD, believed in reading and interpreting the Bible for himself. The Gutenberg press was invented around the same time which helped spread the idea (and literacy) around by printing Bibles for the people to read.
quote:Pooka wrote:We have an interesting parable in the Book of Mormon, The Olive Tree that explains why God would let the church of his Son fall away and then bring back a competing church later. I think in the sense of that, LDS is also a protestant church.
I would say this is kind of off the mark. Luther's idea was not to set up a competing church. He didn't believe you really needed a church at all. The church is just there for a sense of community among the believers. You can stay at home and just pray and be a perfectly good protestant. No tithes, no rituals. Just you and God, speaking to each other. Some of the people that followed him may have steered protestantism back to something more churchlike, though.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I meant the LDS church, but that's okay.
I wonder sometimes why we have to put up with congregations, and I think it proves (in the crucible sense) our charity. It is easy to be charitable when you don't have to deal with people. I thought Luther hoped to help the Catholic church see the errors in some of its ways (selling indulgences rings a bell). From what I recall in world history classes. But I don't actually know what the x-number of theses said.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote: He [Luther] didn't believe you really needed a church at all. The church is just there for a sense of community among the believers. You can stay at home and just pray and be a perfectly good protestant. No tithes, no rituals. Just you and God, speaking to each other.
Care to back that up with a citation from Luther’s writings?
Luther did not intend to either form a new church or abolish the old one. He intended to reform it. Hence The Protestant Reformation.
[ February 11, 2004, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Hm. I don't think we've had an "explain the protestant religions" thread.
Hm. I guess we still don't.
*******************
Hobbes, thanks for writing that all down. You'll be really grateful that you did. I was very happy to read it and hear a little more of your story.
Not to mention that the whole thing is really exciting!!! Congrats!
(this looks so cold on the screen, so I hope you realize that my wishes are extremely heartfelt and that I'm so happy for you.)
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
dkw- Hmmm. Maybe I phrased that badly. By "He [Luther] didn't believe you really needed a church at all", I meant that he believed that observing arcane rituals, selling indulgences, interpreting the Bible only through the priesthood etc. interfered with people communicating with God. To communicate with God, he did not believe that a person needed to go through the church (i.e. Catholic church, which sold indulgences, interpreted the Bible only through the priesthood/monks/etc.) but only needed a Bible and the ability to read. So maybe that would read better if I changed it to "He didn't believe you needed the rituals of church to interpret the Bible." Would you agree with that?
Your comments in the other thread seem to support that idea. You each read the Bible, but come together to get a consensus about what you believe to be true interpretations. Really, Luther was most upset about indulgences, correct? His changes were far more radical than stopping indulgences, though, and it is surprising that he thought he could reform the church while abolishing some of its most cherished rituals.
"...as soon as a coin in the coffer clinks, a soul into heaven springs."
[ February 11, 2004, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: JonnyNotSoBravo ]
Posted by Law Maker (Member # 5909) on :
Lately I've slipped back into my old habit of lurking, but I guess I'll de-lurk enough to congratulate you, Hobbes.
Congratulations Hobbes!
To answer some people: My experience with spiritual guidence has been that it is usually a very small thing that is mixed up with my other thoughts and emotions; something very hard to isolate. I have had one experience, though, where that "Voice of the Spirt" or "Holy Ghost" or whatever you want to call it hit me like a freight train. I don't want to go into detail about the circumstances, but I could not think of a way that it could have come from myself. The experience left me without a doubt about who it was from and there's no way I could deny it and live with myself.
I'm not sure why it happened to me, nothing like it has happened since, and I don't know why it hasn't happened to everyone. I don't have any answers, but I do know that is possible for thoughts and feelings to come to you from outside yourself with a great deal of strength and certainty.
I don't really expect anyone to change their minds because of what has happened to me, just something to think about.
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
*high fives Hobbes*
That is wonderful! Thank you for sharing your journey, I look forward to part II.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
celia, I think posting what I did is rather apropos to my namesake.
-Bok
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
JohnnyNSB, I think it would be a gross mischaracterization of the Roman Catholic Church to characterize the selling of indulgences as one “of its most cherished rituals.”
Edit: And where, exactly, did I say anything about reading the Bible?
[ February 11, 2004, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Peter said:
quote:Am I a total geek because I raised my hand up to my monitor to accept the high five?
And I felt so clever and unique for doing that Dang it all, I'm so derivative.
Anyway, congratulations, Hobbes, for crossing the oft-difficult boundary from agnosticism into faith. The current normally flows in the other direction, and an experience like yours is a rare and exciting thing for me to read about
But more than that, thank you for writing up your experience for us. I recently got into a long discussion with a coworker about the Church. This coworker is dating a former Mormon — or a "recovering Mormon" as she likes to call herself — and his attitude toward the church is one of subtle, smug condescension. He's actually a really cool guy when we're discussing other subjects, but this one was getting to me because for some reason, it MATTERED to me that this guy respect my faith, and really, no matter what, he was going to think of it as something to be pitied or feared. It bothered me for days, really, that I had failed to really represent myself well to this guy, and I felt like I had lost something.
But reading your account has really built me back up, a lot. See, I already respected YOU a lot more than I respect my coworker, and it's really good to read an experience so similar to my own. I mean, despite the fact that I was raised religious, I was also raised very skeptical, and it's not hard for me to see the vulnerabilities inherent to faithful belief. But much like you, the feeling I have toward the truth of my faith and my moral outlook runs much deeper than my typical emotional responses, and I can't dismiss it the way I've always been able to dismiss forces like infatuation, fear, and anger when I needed to.
Someone here said that the major purpose of religion is being happy. That may be true to the extent that the purpose of LIFE is beeing happy, but I think that religion exists, even more, as a place where people of a common faith can support one another in pursuing a very difficult moral quest that any one of us might easily fail on our own.
So thank you for being there to help support me in mine Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: Anyway, congratulations, Hobbes, for crossing the oft-difficult boundary from agnosticism into faith. The current normally flows in the other direction
That's just the way it looks when you're young, Dog. It's a big tidal thing-a-majig.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
quote:dkw wrote: JohnnyNSB, I think it would be a gross mischaracterization of the Roman Catholic Church to characterize the selling of indulgences as one "of its most cherished rituals."
And where, exactly did I say that the selling of indulgences was one of its most cherished rituals?
I was referring to the changes that "were far more radical than stopping indulgences," i.e. the idea that a person could interpret the Bible themselves instead of only letting the priesthood/monks/etc. do it, and having the priest interpret the word of God is indeed one of the Catholic Church's most cherished rituals.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
::re-reads::
Sorry, my mistake. I took your "...as soon as a coin in the coffer clinks, a soul into heaven springs" as relating to your previous sentence about cherished rituals.
Perhaps we should take further discussion to another thread, so as not to disrupt Hobbes' party?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Just ask a dkw Here you go
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
quote:At those conferences, we worship together, talk together, pray together, eat together, and listen for God together. And then we have a parliamentary-style process by which we attempt to agree on what it is God is saying to us.
My fault. I was transferring reading the Bible onto your "listening" for God. Does your sect of protestantism not do that same sort of "listening" while reading the Bible?
I think I may come off sounding snarky when I'm saying all these things, especially when I'm not an expert. I'm sorry if that's the case. You're a minister, right dkw? I acknowledge your superior knowledge in the area of protestantism! Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote: Does your sect of protestantism not do that same sort of "listening" while reading the Bible?
Certainly. But not exclusively while reading the Bible.
Posted by larisse (Member # 2221) on :
Hobbes, congratulations on your baptism. I loved reading your account of your induction into your faith and religion. I think it's wonderful how you took your own path, proving to yourself that it was right for you. I know that you did justice to yourself and the people who share your faith.
Personally, I think that whatever religion or belief system one has for themselves, it does have to bring them happiness and contentment in order to satisfy. I can't wait to read the rest of your account.
*Returns High Five* <-- I was gonna do that anyways, but glad to see I wasn't the only one.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
Thanks for sharing that, Hobbes.
(yeah, yeah, I did the high-five thing too... )
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I love conversion stories. They help my own faith, but I also love it because it's a spiritual high. This is great. *hugs Hobbes*
Have you told the original missionaries yet? You can get addresses from the mission office if you don't have them. They'd love to know that someone they tracted into got baptized. It's still totally your story, but really, you'll make their month.
[ February 12, 2004, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"They help my own faith, but I also love it because it's a spiritual high."
Do you like conversion stories from other faiths?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't know; I've never been there for one.
----
Tom, I need to post that Rules of Life thread again, because I have a theory that when you and I were around the same point in our respective lives, I found religion and you found love, and both are for some reason a little skeptical that the other phenomonon really exists while simultaneously longing for it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
There's a conversion story to paganism on DaGoat's thread. Take a look.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
No comment on my theory?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's a theory, but it's an unscientific one. Not only is it untestable, it's not predictive. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Come on, you have to admit there are parallels...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yep. But -- and please, PLEASE don't take this the wrong way -- I can point to my wife and say, "See? She exists." It may be possible to continue to disbelieve that love actually exists, but it's rather hard to disbelieve in the object and products of that love. So while there's a parallel -- a longing for something intangible that other people say they've been able to experience -- I don't think it's as close of one as you're arguing.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't mean people, I mean love. I mean, there are a thousand other reasons someone might want to hang around me than love.
I can point to some very definite feelings inside - I know that God is there. I know the miracles exist. I'm much, much more sure of God's love than I am of people.
----
I'm not saying it's a one to one parallel. But your wistful tone when you talk about prayer and religion just sounds awfully familiar.
[ February 12, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. Maybe there's another difference, then.
I don't KNOW that Christy loves me. I certainly don't know if there's some nebulous spiritual connection between us that will outlast our lives.
I know I love HER, by the definition of the word, and choose to take her promises at face value based on her behavior.
But I DON'T have some kind of spiritual certainty that capital-L "Love" is hovering around us and sprinkling us with confetti or something.
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Tom I agree with Katharina about the spritual high thing and wanted to answer your question; at least from my perspective.
I do think any conversion story has power. When someone reaches a goal or a marking point on a journey, it is cause for celebration. That is what we like about stories in general. We can see ourselves in the hero. Or we hope that we can be like the hero, or whatever. In any case we can identify with the characters.
I will echo the idea, mentioned above, that any devout follower of a religion has gone through some conversion process. When it is a conversion to the same faith that you belong, it is that much more powerful because it is that much easier to identify with. Therefore, although conversion stories in general make me feel good, LDS conversion stories I find particulary enjoyable because they so easily ring true for me.
Personally, the only reason I started reading OSC is because he was a "quasi-famous" mormon author and I hadn't read any of his stuff before and that Ender's Game book was supposedly pretty good. (That was almost my verbatim thought process picking EG up from the library) I enjoyed it and have now read most everyting he's written. (it's taken a couple years, but I've only got 5-6 books to go) Particularly enjoyable for me are the Homecoming and Alvin series. Why? Because I'm LDS and I can appreciate the story lines a little bit more because I'm so familiar with the some of the inspiration for the stories. That doesn't mean they wouldn't be enjoyable for someone that isn't LDS as OSC is, just that it's more enjoyabe because of the shared background.
[ February 12, 2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: peterh ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Therefore although conversion stories in general make me feel good."
But what if the conversion is to a faith you find particularly odious or dangerous? If someone says they've found true happiness in, say, Satanism or Voodoo, will you wish them well? What if they've linked up with Scientologists or Raelians?
Is it the act of choosing a path that's heartwarming, or is it the act of choosing a path you think is right?
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
If someone told me they had truly found happiness in cutting the heads off of chickens and drinking their blood straight from the neck, I'd have a hard time identifying with it. But, I'd be happy for the person and wish them well. That's my whole point. It resonates more when it's someone from the same faith. I'm still happy for someone when they're happy though.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. See, I'm not.
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
My only caveat would be if someone found happiness in doing something that I believed was destructive to others. If they enjoy destroying themself (in my opinion) then I'm okay with it. But if someone decided they wanted to follow the life of Jeffrey Dahmer as a religion, I'd have issues. But in general, that's not what we're talking about, I don't think.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I think I’m with Tom on this one. Several of the “conversion” stories on Da Goat’s thread made me sad. (The conversion to paganism, btw is on Leonide’s “Places of Worship” thread, not Da Goat’s conversion thread.) At least part of that sadness is from the way Christianity is described by those who have left it. It makes me want to cry out “but that’s NOT what Christianity teaches!” But, I know that it probably was what some church was teaching.
Of course, recently the stories from people on Hatrack in my own denomination have made me rather sad too. Not that they chose it, but how they describe it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*feels a need to offer dkw a hug* You doing okay?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
First off, to those who though I was a member, I was vague about it and rather suspected that result, and besides which most of my Ward thought I was a member too. Second, thanks to everyone who congratulated me.
I wanted to make a few other comments. I talked about the Holy Ghost in my conversion, because that is the key factor. If He is not there than there is no conversion. However, other things did help me along the way, other people and other events (like the missionaries tracting into me so soon in my… quest so to speak).
Second is one the issue of faith required to gain faith. Just a quick thought, it is true that you must begin with faith, but it’s misunderstood what that faith is. My only beginning faith was that it was possible God existed. Before that though I did say I acknowledged the possibility, I really didn’t give it any thought. I needed faith that it could be true, not that it necessarily was.
Hmmm… reading through this thread I think I had about 9.3 full formed other thoughts and now I can’t even remember that 3/10ths of a thought so I guess that about sums it up.
Hobbes
[ February 12, 2004, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
Luther believed tithing was important. Luther believed a church body was important to strengthen ones faith. Luther believed we needed only 2 sacraments rather than Catholic church requiring 7. Holy Baptism, and Holy Communion were the two essential ingredients as far as rituals were concerned. but he didn't completely disregard the remaining 5. he just didn't think they were essential to one's faith.
just clearing up a few things of what Luther believed. and what at least the LUTHERAN church if not other protestant churches also hold true.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
wow, thanks Ben! I was totally uninformed! Sorry to everyone to whom I might have spread that misinformation! Did Luther believe in transsubstantiation, Ben? And where did you find out so much about what Luther believed?
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
yes he believed in transubstantiation. but he came to his conclusion in a slightly different manner than the approach and method of reasoning catholics used. i would need to go back and do some qwuick research to tell you how or why he came to this conclusion.
i'm Lutheran. Was raised Lutheran. and was Confirmed Lutheran. we had to learn a good deal about the Lutheran church to be confirmed. sad to say i cheated through alot of it (my friends sister would come and read us the answers to tests when pastor was on the phone) butr have learned alot of it since. and I'm studying to be a Lutheran Minister.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Better learn the difference between transubstantiation and consubstantiation then. Luther believed the latter, not the former.
[ February 17, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Ben, I also went through the Lutheran confirmation process. Transubstatiation is not what we were taught. The interpretation of the sacraments wasn't that the ceremonies excluded were unimportant or less important, it was that each already included communion, and thus was not it's own sacrament. I think that's what your saying, I just didn't think it was clear.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
So me and my lack of literary skills are going to attempt to explain why exactly it is I joined a Church, and specifically the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
).![[Wink]](wink.gif)
) and ended up a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints.![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
When she uh... fell for me though the question wasn't if I would join but when if that's what you mean.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
And congratulations.
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
)![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
) Your story is very strengthening to my own testimony, and your faith is a wonderful example to me.![[Confused]](confused.gif)
" I'm sure you'll hear this a lot, but even those of us born and raised in the church generally go through trials that cause us to have to decide if we really believe in A) God and B) the restoration of the Gospel through Joseph Smith.![[Party]](graemlins/party.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
Second, thanks to everyone who congratulated me.