quote:h. One foreskin can cost as much as $100,000 and to buy foreskin fibroblasts offered by The Coriell Institute for $85 - click here
Was your goal in this thread to encourage Amateur Home Circumcision? How else can we keep that evil doctor off our valuable skin flaps?!
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Is there someone I can sell my valuable skin flaps to? They would pay for the circumcision too of course.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: When you use the term 'shallow' in this context do you attempt to divorce it from its negative connotations or do you feel that such decisions are not only shallow technically but also represent a person of poor character?
Hmmm, missed this. Being shallow obviously isn't a good thing, but neither do I think its as critical a flaw as has been implied by some others (i.e. the connotation of bimbo).
Probably not a very interesting answer, I'm afraid.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
So many responses since last I looked at this thread.
@TomDavidson - So he won't remember it, of course. If I waited for him to decide when he was 18, i'm sure he would never forget it in his life. I would even be afraid to do it... I'm thankful that I got it over with when I was a baby.
I would prefer the method that Stone_Wolf's son had of course. I don't want my child to be in too much pain. Though it is something that, if at all, should be done in infancy.
I can imagine that actually being born from my mother's womb must have been awefully painful. I would hate for people to argue "since it must be really painful to the baby that it should stop."
Posts: 91 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think Tom's question was about why you would snip your kid in the first place, not necessarily about when you'd do it.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have to point out that even if they don't remember it, it doesn't mean the pain doesn't affect their brain. When babies are stressed out it releases cortisol. Really, if they don't need to have it done, don't bother with it.
Also, I must continue to wonder why I am being mocked over my strong desire to prevent babies from unnecessary pain. It's bad enough you have natural pains like teething and such. And the world is waiting to shoot arrows at everyone. Why give them a pain they don't even need to have anyway? People in the US act like you HAVE to circumcise. Like it's a MUST. Like you just HAVE TO DO IT AND THERE'S NO CHOICE but really there's not much of a decision to make. You just don't bother with it. Folks get by just find with anteaters.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You're being mocked because you refuse to listen to people, oh, and because you repeat yourself endlessly, and do not address what people say, and tell people what to do, and use CAPS WHENEVER YOU GET EMOTIONAL about repeating whatever you feel the world thinks (even though no one here is saying that) and did I mention you don't listen to anyone also you repeat yourself ENDLESSLY and rail at how much this country has misconceptions and how horrible it is and how we keep hurting babies DOWN THERE and there just is no reason to do it, you don't understand why people just don't stop, even though EVERYONE HAS TOLD YOU AT LEAST TWICE and also you tend to say the same thing over and over.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I must continue to wonder why I am being mocked over my strong desire to prevent babies from unnecessary pain.
It's because you're coming off like a somewhat hysterical wilting flower, and because it is totally not a big deal compared to pretty much everything else you could be upset about.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Let's see if *this* will be addressed in ways that several direct challenges and observations weren't:
quote:People in the US act like you HAVE to circumcise. Like it's a MUST. Like you just HAVE TO DO IT AND THERE'S NO CHOICE but really there's not much of a decision to make.
Well, *some* people do. Something near *less than half* of the people in the USA do, in fact. This has been pointed out repeatedly, but don't let that-or anything-stop you from getting hysterical and ignoring stuff that's inconvenient.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
80% of people in the world don't do it. Maybe we should catch up. I know I'm sounding overly emotional, but look at the baby's perspective in this. It's kind of part of a bigger picture, really, when it comes to babies and treating them with compassion from the very start.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
CT, Thanks for the links. I was surprised to see how much evidence there is that circumcision reduces the spread of STDs. Its still not nearly as effective as a condom or life long monogamy, but interesting none the less. If the spread of AIDS could really be cut in half in Africa by circumcising all male babies, it would certainly be worth it in my opinion.
Of course, nothing is ever that simple with human beings. Unfortunately, whenever we do one thing to make people safer, they compensate by engaging in generally riskier behavior. I don't know how much that's true for STDs, but its certainly true for traffic collisions.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
You are again implying (down right saying?) that to circumcise is to treat babies without compassion.
You are accusing a lot of caring and thoughtful people (I include myself in that number) of treating our children without compassion, implying that we are missing the big picture, that we did not look at this issue from the point of view of our children.
I know to you it seems like a simple matter, [cut + baby + penis = ouch] but life is not that simple, and neither is being a good parent. If you are simply unwilling/unable to see this issue (which I am starting to accept) as anything but that simple equation, let me know, and I'll stop wasting my valuable time trying to discuss this with you.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: 80% of people in the world don't do it. Maybe we should catch up. I know I'm sounding overly emotional, but look at the baby's perspective in this. It's kind of part of a bigger picture, really, when it comes to babies and treating them with compassion from the very start.
Ok, well it's quite clear to me now: this issue is *so important* you don't have to have an honest discussion about it. Many times now you've been shown things that either weaken or outright contradict the claims and rhetoric you're making, but repeatedly you've just ignored or brushed it aside.
Just because it's important doesn't entitle you a fanatic's dishonest style, Synesthesia.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The baby's perspective... for a short while the baby is very unhappy, possibly in some pain... ... then over it. The part of the brain that forms and retains memory isn't quite there yet. The baby will soon forget and act as if it never happened.
If the baby can forgive and forget, why can't you?
Posts: 91 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not sure I'm wrong about this and I don't think I'm a looney or delusional or any of that stuff. Sure, I come off as over emotional, but what can I say? I have hyper empathy. Even if you don't remember the first few years of your life, they shape you because that's when your brain is developing. So, why should a baby experience even a few minutes of pain if it's just not needed? Why can't that boy be in his mother and father's arms instead of lying on some circumstraint getting part of his body cut? Who cares if he can't remember it. Fact is, it's just not needed anymore when we have soap, water and condoms. So I'm going to keep arguing against this, just as I will keep arguing against spanking and things like that.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
When my son got his first bath, on his first day, the nurses were not comforting him, and I went to do it, since he was crying. They told me it was good for him to get all the fluid off his lungs to cry and cry hard that time.
I don't think you are crazy for caring about babies, I think your not engaging in discussion here and justifying your bad tactics with moral self congratulations vs imaginary mustache twirling villains, and I'm afraid your black and white kindergarten moralities are too basic to actually do any good in the real world.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it's fine to argue against it, Synesthesia. What people keep pointing out to you - and you are fairly consistently ignoring - is that when you use questionable or false facts to argue with, and don't acknowledge when this is pointed out, it undermines your cause.
Along the same lines, when you ignore or distort counterpoints instead of addressing them, it undermines your cause.
Right now you're sort of the PETA of circumcisions.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: CT, Thanks for the links. I was surprised to see how much evidence there is that circumcision reduces the spread of STDs. Its still not nearly as effective as a condom or life long monogamy, but interesting none the less.
Glad to be of help.
I encourage people to be very careful about interpreting the data. It is very easy to be sure it implies one thing, when the reverse is true.
Most of the strong argument for circumcision on infectious disease grounds comes from studies out of Africa, and I think one from Asia. Don't forget that this encompasses much area where there is no clean water supply, and where daily showers or baths are far beyond the pale. (For example, these are the same areas where HIV+ women are recommended to breastfeed even though we know it transmits the HIV virus -- but mixing formula with the unclean water that is available will essentially kill the babies faster. Worldwide, diarrhea illness is the biggest cause of infant death.)
It is thought that routine daily hygiene with clean water would ameliorate much of the problem and keep the foreskin from raising the risk. So the populations (Africa and North America) are different in ways that are likely to affect the numbers.
When you look at the numbers in the US, this is borne out -- most of the studies do not show a clear increase in the risk of HIV transmission if you have an intact foreskin. Of the ones that do, usually it is either a relatively small increase or is not statistically significant.
You have to be careful about the interpretation. But like you said, circumcision has the potential for making a dramatic change in risk of HIV transmission in certain populations. In other populations, it may make no difference at all.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Sure, I come off as over emotional, but what can I say?
When you started posting in this thread, I contemplated telling you to step back, not get started, literally not even to ever open it and read it. It wasn't hard to see what was coming. But people have been telling you to step away and not even expose yourself to stuff that makes you ill (and leads to you frequently voicing your extremely brittle sensitivities) long enough that I kind of guessed it would be a hopeless gesture.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
There will always be people for & against circumcisions. I'm sure there are many pro's and con's to it but I think it just comes down to the individuals.
Syn won't be getting her son snipped and can't be pursuaded to do so no matter what information is brought up. The same can be true about those that are for circumcisions.
So what has this thread accomplished? 11 pages of people for and against, links posted, and nub bashing... but i'm sure not many minds changed.
Maybe an agreement of disagreement and move on?
Posts: 91 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dude,*** if you are going to go the whole "This Must Be a Productive Discussion" route, you may well be in for some frustration. I think pretty much all we do here is talk about things on which almost all of us have differing perspectives.
***Oh, and play peekaboo. Posts: 831 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It clearly states in the user agreement that we are not allowed to "agree to disagree"...
quote:User Agreement Review Considering the real-time nature of this bulletin board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the contents of this BB and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately.
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You also agree that you will not use this forum to try to convert people to your own religious beliefs, or to disparage others for their own religious beliefs. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB. You agree to never agree to disagree with people who are wrong headed and silly and instead keep grinding your opinion into their faces until they finally submit to your far superior grasp of the one, true and only view of whichever subject you are arguing about. Amen.
Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless this BB (and any owners of this BB) and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).
We also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.
Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate in this BB.
posted
@CT - To be honest I don't mind if it isn't productive. People can just share what opinion they have. I can still enjoy a good conversation with that. When it gets to nub bashing... It stops being fun (for me).
@Stone - ... i c wut u did thar
Posts: 91 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Dude, if you are going to go the whole "This Must Be a Productive Discussion" route, you may well be in for some frustration. I think pretty much all we do here is talk about things on which almost all of us have differing perspectives.
Discussing differing views can be a whole lot more productive than this discussion has been.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wish you all the success you can get in making that happen throughout the site. Seriously.
I'm just happy when violations of TOS are kept to a minimum. I've given up on any semblance*** of critiquing what others say or conversations in general, though I'm still happy to respond to given bits if I think I have something to offer.
I'm okay that you feel differently, though, and wish you all the best.
--- Very Relevant Addendum:
***
quote:Originally posted by CT: Dude, if you are going to go the whole "This Must Be a Productive Discussion" route, you may well be in for some frustration. I think pretty much all we do here is talk about things on which almost all of us have differing perspectives.
Except, apparently, for KirKis!
I guess I haven't lost hope on you yet, KirKis. It's an awesome responsibility. Can you slow my prolonged slide into apathy?
I'll settle for the chance you haven't lost hope on me. Posts: 831 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Dude, if you are going to go the whole "This Must Be a Productive Discussion" route, you may well be in for some frustration. I think pretty much all we do here is talk about things on which almost all of us have differing perspectives.
Discussing differing views can be a whole lot more productive than this discussion has been.
New cases of HIV among men fell by an astonishing 76 percent after a circumcision programme was launched in a South African township, researchers reported.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Goal #15 in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is "Hire shrill extremists to hijack circumcision threads and frame everything in the context of Judaism's theological requirements. This will accomplish ... something. We're not really sure yet. Please don't tell anyone we're writing this until we get that ironed out."
#16-#27 are subsequently attempts to forge a secret handshake.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
So, Janitor, I replied to your email. I'm thinking it might be worth posting my reply here on Hatrack. I certainly have nothing to be embarrassed about in our correspondance. Do you?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
Anyway, your not uncommon violations of the ToS and your frequent personal hostility to other posters, certainly denies you the ability to take him to task for behavior, in either his BB hat or JB hat. Or at least to do so in an honest, fair way. Frankly if that is what you're doing, and it very much sounds like you are, the nerve and hypocrisy is striking.
I say that as someone who has disagreed recently with JB, no less, but nonetheless complied.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lisa: Stop posting on Hatrack please. You know my decision on this matter. If you have any decency left, you will leave in peace.
Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: So, Janitor, I replied to your email. I'm thinking it might be worth posting my reply here on Hatrack. I certainly have nothing to be embarrassed about in our correspondance. Do you?
They need a rolleyes smiley the size of a planetPosts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
