posted
It is. How silly. Folks need to get over the gay thing and focus on other things. As it's so outmoded and uncool to bug gay people all the time.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
How dare they interrupt the ability of the male students to see real life lesbians and see them cuddle and act all heartwarming!
quote:Besides, at least we've moved up from dragging gays behind cars.
I'm not sure if this is as encouraging as you intended it to be. And the kids in the district in question are going to be pissed at the girl regardless, no matter how under 30 they are.
But yeah, frustrating as it is I'm not too worried about gay rights. I'm pretty confident in another generation things'll will be significantly improved. People do need to keep fighting in the meantime but ultimately the bigots just need to be waited out.
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posted
I figured this would be about the Catholic School in Denver that is kicking out the children of a lesbian couple.
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This kid should be banned from prom precisely because they are taking it too seriously.
edit: Also I feel the thread title is misleading. I don't think either side "won" in this exchange. One side has the moral high ground, but that does not mean either side got what they wanted.
posted
I'm confused about who you're referring to by "this kid", BB. Do you mean the lesbian girl, or the kid who said, "Thanks for ruining my senior year"?
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posted
No, nobody wins here. The school's claim that cancelling the prom will stop "interference with the educational process" is baloney.
I guess no school can be FORCED to sponsor a dance though...it's like they're forbidding to educate the students and the dance is after school hours and not an academic class, so I guess they can.
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posted
Sean: My comment follows a quotation, so it's in regards to the person making that statement. Sorry if I confused you.
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posted
Meh. I think the school is stupid for doing what they did. So the girl is a lesbian and wanted to go to prom. Who cares?
There was a club that started at my old High School called the Pride club that was a gay and lesbian club. Well, my brother thought he would start a "straight" club. He got a teacher to agree to be responsible for it. They met once and then were shut down. The meeting they had had nothing to do with being gay or straight, they actually just met and played Magic: The Gathering for an hour after school.
The principle shut them down and told them they couldn't have a straight club. My brother argued that there was nothing wrong with having one, and since there was a gay and lesbian club it would be unfair to shut him down for having a straight club. He said sexual preference should not be the basis for a public school club.
Long story short, the principle shut both of them down.
I don't agree with shutting down either of the clubs. If they want to have a gay and lesbian club, fine. Same with a straight club. As long as there was nothing going in either club that would cause animosity, I'm cool with it.
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posted
I just re-checked the article and apparently now the girl is suing the school to force them to hold the prom. Same link from the OP.
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posted
I was chatting about this on another message board and ran into a woman from that area who said it was "like going back in time 50 years....seriously."
I don't see how you can force a school to hold a prom. If I were a student from that school, I'd be pretty ticked off.
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posted
Geraine:A Magic: The Gathering club is in essence an "We are asexual in nature and will never get laid" club. So it is in fact a club founded on sexual preference. Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lalo: Don't worry, everyone under thirty is disgusted by this. Homophobic morons will mostly die out over the next few decades.
Besides, at least we've moved up from dragging gays behind cars.
I disagree. This stuff passes down through the generations. Just walk through a middle school hallway some day. Its all "f*g" this and your a "f*g" and she's a lesbian or d*ke. I have serious talks with my students about that talk but it goes right out of their heads when they leave my room.
It seems to be the last type of derogatory statement and discrimination fairly accepted by a majority of the population.
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posted
I thought the girl handled herself really well during that interview. That's got to be a nerve racking experience for a teenager.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Geraine:A Magic: The Gathering club is in essence an "We are asexual in nature and will never get laid" club. So it is in fact a club founded on sexual preference.
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: But yeah, frustrating as it is I'm not too worried about gay rights. I'm pretty confident in another generation things'll will be significantly improved. People do need to keep fighting in the meantime but ultimately the bigots just need to be waited out.
While I agree with and find it heartening, I can't imagine that this provides much consolation to those who are suffering from antigay bigotry now.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: But yeah, frustrating as it is I'm not too worried about gay rights. I'm pretty confident in another generation things'll will be significantly improved. People do need to keep fighting in the meantime but ultimately the bigots just need to be waited out.
While I agree with and find it heartening, I can't imagine that this provides much consolation to those who are suffering from antigay bigotry now.
Yeah, who can wait that long? Folks must get over the homosexuality thing and focus on something else!
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Geraine:A Magic: The Gathering club is in essence an "We are asexual in nature and will never get laid" club. So it is in fact a club founded on sexual preference.
I laughed so hard when I read this. Thank you for that! Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:I figured this would be about the Catholic School in Denver that is kicking out the children of a lesbian couple.
This is another 'who are they kidding' moment for me.
quote:"The issue is not about our not accepting 'sinners,' " he said. "It is not about punishing the child for the sins of his or her parents. It is simply that the lesbian couple is saying that their relationship is a good one that should be accepted by everyone; and the Church cannot agree to that."
Who is he kidding? Does he actually believe that, and is simply not aware of the striking hypocrisy present in the (I'm pretty comfortable in believing) lack of a policy to screen children for adulterous parents, larcenous parents, blaspheming parents, and so on and so forth? If he does, this is almost Orwellian cognitive dissonance-freedom is slavery level stuff.
If he doesn't believe his own nonsense, though...well, there are a great many harsh words that could accurately be put to him.
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posted
Rak, that's pretty much why my daughter was rejected by two schools when we went to sign her up for kindergarten.
I'm not in any way trying to justify what that Catholic school did, but I think I understand their reasoning. It's possible that the parents changed the way they registered their child, crossing out "father" and putting "mother". It's possible that the women attempted to volunteer to do things for their children's class. Anything that draws attention to their being a lesbian couple to the extent that people can't ignore it.
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posted
I agree with those who've said nobody wins here. Both sides have put politics ahead of the good of the students involved.
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posted
Both sides? How do you see the girl (or her lawyer) putting politics ahead of what's good for her?
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posted
It'd be nice to hear some of the students who were telling her that she ruined their senior year give her kudos for trying to save the prom.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Rak, that's pretty much why my daughter was rejected by two schools when we went to sign her up for kindergarten.
I'm not in any way trying to justify what that Catholic school did, but I think I understand their reasoning. It's possible that the parents changed the way they registered their child, crossing out "father" and putting "mother". It's possible that the women attempted to volunteer to do things for their children's class. Anything that draws attention to their being a lesbian couple to the extent that people can't ignore it.
I suspect that the part I italicized is significant and that the real sin in question is not the sex, it is the open and public defiance of the bishops.
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I'm not in any way trying to justify what that Catholic school did, but I think I understand their reasoning. It's possible that the parents changed the way they registered their child, crossing out "father" and putting "mother". It's possible that the women attempted to volunteer to do things for their children's class. Anything that draws attention to their being a lesbian couple to the extent that people can't ignore it.
I suspect something along those lines is what happened too. But the reason it doesn't wash, as much as I understand their reasoning, it remains deeply and fundamentally hypocritical to say nothing of un-Christian so long as other sins aren't used as justification to screen out the children of those sinners as well. Which becomes especially problematic in Christianity, with everyone being a sinner and all.
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posted
Funny....while I don't agree with the school in Denver, I do think they have the the right to kick them out. There is a difference between being a sinner and struggling with something you consider a sin and taking part in a relationship that goes against church doctrine and being unrepentant about it.
Let me make this clear, as I am SURE I am going to get covered in egg for this post....I don't believe they are right. But I respect their right to have their own school, based on their own religious principals, and to screen their families based on their own clearly stated values and beliefs.
Last time I checked freedom of religion was a protected right as well.
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posted
Having a right and being right are not the same thing. Sure, they have the right; they are still wrong.
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quote:Both sides? How do you see the girl (or her lawyer) putting politics ahead of what's good for her?
Involving the ACLU and threatening lawsuits over a prom is putting politics ahead of what's good for the students. There are ways the student could have taken a stand that would not have turned the whole thing into a national news story and disrupted everything to the degree it did. Both parties are responsible for that.
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Funny....while I don't agree with the school in Denver, I do think they have the the right to kick them out. There is a difference between being a sinner and struggling with something you consider a sin and taking part in a relationship that goes against church doctrine and being unrepentant about it.
Let me make this clear, as I am SURE I am going to get covered in egg for this post....I don't believe they are right. But I respect their right to have their own school, based on their own religious principals, and to screen their families based on their own clearly stated values and beliefs.
Last time I checked freedom of religion was a protected right as well.
True... but this doesn't mean banning people from having ham sandwiches or banning people from drinking alcohol and coffee if your religion doesnt' agree with it. People do have religious rights, but I think civil rights kind of trump those sometimes. Like not being allowed to fire someone because they are opening gay.
Then again, I'm not sure I'd want to send a future child of mine to a school like that, especially if I were to end up with a woman. They seem kind of... not polite.
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Funny....while I don't agree with the school in Denver, I do think they have the the right to kick them out. There is a difference between being a sinner and struggling with something you consider a sin and taking part in a relationship that goes against church doctrine and being unrepentant about it.
Let me make this clear, as I am SURE I am going to get covered in egg for this post....I don't believe they are right. But I respect their right to have their own school, based on their own religious principals, and to screen their families based on their own clearly stated values and beliefs.
Last time I checked freedom of religion was a protected right as well.
Let's draw out the logical principle here and say there's a school that was run as a religious school by an offshoot of the LDS that still held on to the original racist doctrine, or something. They're completely against miscegenation. Do you support their right to kick out a child because his mother married a black man?
If they don't have that right, what's different there?
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posted
Plenty of hetero females go to the prom together, lacking a male date. I'm sure there are plenty of gay parents with students in Christian schools. The Catholic school didn't expel the students for having gay parent's, they expelled them because the parents were in open protest to the beliefs of the church. They weren't expelled for their perceived sin, they were expelled for openly opposing the institution. The school is free to expel anyone who attends their private institution while protesting the foundations of the institution.
The lesbian couple only impacted the prom for making an issue out of it. They were free to go but they ruined the prom for everyone by making their attendance a political statement. The student's, not the school turned the event into a statement on gay acceptance. Is there some sort of application for prom attendance that asks your sexuality? The student's made it a protest issue and ruined it for everyone.
Prom's aren't about sexuality. The lesbian students turned a dance into a statement. It can't be equated to a black boy and white girl getting kicked out at the door. The lesbian's would've been let in and could've danced together. PDA is not tolerated at these events in any form, hetero or otherwise. The event isn't about sex or sexuality. The event was canceled because the lesbians twisted the meaning of the event in an attempt to make a political statement when they were welcome to attend. The prom had become a gay rights issue instead of a dance for the biggest football game of the year. Shame on the lesbians for their attention grabbing maneuver. They deprived many students of the big game and dance....that is what it is about.
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So the school is allowed to overreact to a girl wearing a tuxedo and taking her girlfriend?
I would have liked to wear a tux to the prom. I hate dress. Dang on people forcing met o wear dress. When I get married I'm wearing either camo pants or hakama pants. But if these folks weren't making such a big deal out of something so trivial as a girl wearing a tux, they could have their prom and have fun. Dang. Gay folks aren't going back into the closet. Deal!
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posted
Was she turned around at the door for wearing a tuxedo? The event was canceled because she announced that she was the man in the relationship and intended to wear a tuxedo with her lesbian girlfriend in order to make a statement. No one announces to the world what they intend to wear to the prom.
They didn't cancel the prom because a girl showed up in a tux. She never even had a chance to show up. A known joker/funny guy at my high school prom showed up in a dress. Everyone laughed and the prom went on. Some showed up with tux t-shirts. Some boys and girls came alone. Some boys came together and some girls came together.
The fact that we know she was going to show up with a tux illustrates the fact that she was making a statement out of the event. Had she just shown up with her date, she'd have been let in. That high school is without a prom but she's happy because the world knows that she wishes she was a man and prefers other women.
Proms aren't about statements and everyone is welcome to attend.
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Funny....while I don't agree with the school in Denver, I do think they have the the right to kick them out. There is a difference between being a sinner and struggling with something you consider a sin and taking part in a relationship that goes against church doctrine and being unrepentant about it.
Let me make this clear, as I am SURE I am going to get covered in egg for this post....I don't believe they are right. But I respect their right to have their own school, based on their own religious principals, and to screen their families based on their own clearly stated values and beliefs.
Last time I checked freedom of religion was a protected right as well.
Let's draw out the logical principle here and say there's a school that was run as a religious school by an offshoot of the LDS that still held on to the original racist doctrine, or something. They're completely against miscegenation. Do you support their right to kick out a child because his mother married a black man?
If they don't have that right, what's different there?
Actually, I do. If they are privately funded, anyways. More to the point, I can't think of why anyone would want to send their child to school there, knowing what they believe before they enroll him.
I wouldn't want them as neighbors, and I think they are full of it, but private clubs should be able to make their own rules, and religions have the right to believe what they want to, and run their institutions as they see fit.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: They were free to go but they ruined the prom for everyone by making their attendance a political statement.
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Had she just shown up with her date, she'd have been let in.
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Proms aren't about statements and everyone is welcome to attend.
False. It's not hard to do a search on the subject and find that they were not allowed to attend.
quote:On Thursday, the ACLU filed a lawsuit in US district court, charging that school officials violated McMillen's free speech rights when they told her they would enforce the district's policy requiring prom dates to be of the opposite sex.
posted
Your link doesn't contradict anything I've said. No one was allowed to attend, the event was canceled.
The tux wearing lesbian could have shown up at the door with her date and would've been let in. The fact is, she's the only one who "announced" what she was going to wear, who her date was and her sexual preference. The school isn't interested in what you wear, who your date is or what turns you on. The purpose of the prom was undermined by a political statement. She wasn't oppressed. She had equal rights to wear, date and engage in sexual activity just as any other attendee. Unfortunately, she wanted to use the prom to further her agenda. Proms are about football games and a dance, not media camera's in the parking lot to witness a lesbian attending a prom. Gays and lesbians attend proms every year in every town. The school wanted a prom not a gay rights event.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Your link doesn't contradict anything I've said. No one was allowed to attend, the event was canceled.
*sigh* Don't be deliberately obtuse. They were denied attendance before it was cancelled. Then the ACLU threatened suit if they were not allowed to attend. Then the school cancelled it. The article makes this clear. Read it.
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The tux wearing lesbian could have shown up at the door with her date and would've been let in. The fact is, she's the only one who "announced" what she was going to wear, who her date was and her sexual preference. The school isn't interested in what you wear, who your date is or what turns you on. The purpose of the prom was undermined by a political statement. She wasn't oppressed. She had equal rights to wear, date and engage in sexual activity just as any other attendee. Unfortunately, she wanted to use the prom to further her agenda. Proms are about football games and a dance, not media camera's in the parking lot to witness a lesbian attending a prom. Gays and lesbians attend proms every year in every town. The school wanted a prom not a gay rights event.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The school isn't interested in what you wear, who your date is or what turns you on.
Apparently, the school is very interested. If they weren't interested, they would still have let her attend, no matter what she announced.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: She wasn't oppressed. She had equal rights to wear, date and engage in sexual activity just as any other attendee.
The post *right above yours* talks about how this simply is not true! Do you understand it? Or do you just bypass it?
Sigh. I should stop asking these questions.
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quote:The school is free to expel anyone who attends their private institution while protesting the foundations of the institution.
Thank you for pointing out what no one was contesting in the first place. Quite helpful and relevant.
quote: They weren't expelled for their perceived sin, they were expelled for openly opposing the institution.
Considering their defiance was expressly related to their perceived sin, the distinction is pretty academic. These children were expelled because their parents were being uppity, at least so far as the reports say so far. More may come out later, it's true.
quote: The lesbian couple only impacted the prom for making an issue out of it. They were free to go but they ruined the prom for everyone by making their attendance a political statement. The student's, not the school turned the event into a statement on gay acceptance. Is there some sort of application for prom attendance that asks your sexuality? The student's made it a protest issue and ruined it for everyone.
How on Earth do you know they were free to go together? Not that I expect you to actually answer that straightforward and direct question. Your usual pattern in such cases is to either behave as though it were never asked, or reply without ever actually addressing it. You don't know that they were free to go. You don't know that they could have gone together, romantically, with their peers and teachers and staff knowing that, and would have been permitted to do so. You are aware, aren't you, that students are turned away from school dances at the door for various violations?
You're right about one thing, though: they made their attendance a political statement, that political statement being that it's not any of the school board's damned business if some of their students decide voluntarily to attend a dance as a homosexual couple, any more than it's their business to involve themselves in heterosexual couples they disapprove of for whatever ignorant tight-ass reason they may have.
Given that the school had a policy in place specifically prohibiting same-sex couples from attending, your objections as usual are so much bunk.
quote: Prom's aren't about sexuality.
Wrong. Proms are very much about sexuality. They're not entirely about sexuality, but then again very few important human activities are actually about one thing and one thing only. They're so much about sexuality that losing one's virginity after the prom is a cliche. They're also about dancing, corsages, alcohol, the senior year of high school, decorating, bands, making dates, finding dates, dressing up, doing one's hair, going out to fancy restaurants, and going to parties afterwards.
quote:It can't be equated to a black boy and white girl getting kicked out at the door. The lesbian's would've been let in and could've danced together. PDA is not tolerated at these events in any form, hetero or otherwise.
Given that they were barred based on a completely arbitrary cultural distinction, it can very much be equated to barring a couple on racial grounds. Again, you don't know they would've been let in. And finally, it's obvious your knowledge of high school dances is narrow indeed, because PDA is absolutely tolerated at least to some extent at many of them. It depends on what you mean by 'PDA'. If you mean grinding to booty dance music, then rarely yes. If by 'PDA' you mean 'openly attending and dancing with a date of one's choice', then as usual you're wrong as wrong can be.
quote:Was she turned around at the door for wearing a tuxedo? The event was canceled because she announced that she was the man in the relationship and intended to wear a tuxedo with her lesbian girlfriend in order to make a statement. No one announces to the world what they intend to wear to the prom.
So, wearing a tuxedo means she is declaring herself the man in the relationship? This is yet another thing you have no way of knowing. Perhaps she likes tuxedos. Perhaps her date just really liked dresses, outweighing her own like of dresses. Perhaps she herself doesn't like dresses-as shocking as it might seem to you with your enlightened perspective and happens-to-be-Jamaican neighbors, not everyone heterosexual woman likes dresses.
quote:They didn't cancel the prom because a girl showed up in a tux. She never even had a chance to show up. A known joker/funny guy at my high school prom showed up in a dress. Everyone laughed and the prom went on. Some showed up with tux t-shirts. Some boys and girls came alone. Some boys came together and some girls came together.
How do you know he was joking? Perhaps it was a clever hiding-in-plain-sight kind of thing. Anyway, he wasn't 'declaring himself a woman' by wearing a dress, so why must this lesbian be declaring herself the man by wearing a tux?
quote: The fact that we know she was going to show up with a tux illustrates the fact that she was making a statement out of the event. Had she just shown up with her date, she'd have been let in. That high school is without a prom but she's happy because the world knows that she wishes she was a man and prefers other women.
More stuff you not only don't know, but have no way of knowing.
quote:Proms aren't about statements and everyone is welcome to attend.
If any further evidence were needed that you not only didn't know what you were talking about, but had an agenda to shill for, this would suffice.
quote:The fact is, she's the only one who "announced" what she was going to wear, who her date was and her sexual preference.
But then you said this. Who is dating who and who is wearing what is a big deal for high school proms.
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posted
Who is dating who and who is wearing what is only a big deal to the students attending the prom.
I was voted junior prince at one of mine, my date and girlfriend wasn't the princess. How insensitive of the school to "make me" dance with someone else for the royal dance. I saw the pain in her eyes but did the one dance with the other girl.
School proms do not ask who you are bringing, what you are going to wear or what is your sexuality.
PDA might be tolerated at some schools but proms aren't for the expression of sexuality. I'm sure Hatrack has discussed the the private proms students have organized since their school's prom is nothing but fighting and hip-hop dry humping. Of course those private proms were considered racist segregation.
Lesbians and gays have attended proms for a very long time. A couple high school lesbians decided to have what they thought would be a Rosa Parks moment. The only difference is, Rosa Parks was actually not allowed to sit in the front. If a black woman decided to make a scene for no reason, the bus would be pulled over and the route stopped. Rosa Parks wasn't allowed in the front and took a legitimate stand. These lesbians are no different than a black who randomly decides to stand up in the front of the bus and call the driver a racist for no reason. Him getting kicked off the bus isn't proof of the drivers racism.
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posted
Nope, not even close. I know that in several similar situations the school was proactive in finding out who was going with who, and most of the schools I know of have dress codes that specifically spell out what is and is not allowed if someone expects to be let in.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that they would have been turned away at the door.
Where the heck do you get this crap, mal? I mean, don't you at least TRY to look like you have a clue? I haven't seen such complete bull being called fact sine the last time I watched Rush Limbaugh.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Who is dating who and who is wearing what is only a big deal to the students attending the prom.
:snort: Mal, this in the face of the prom being canceled over these two things. Two things the school had policies concerning. Sounds like somebody cared.
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