Okay, seriously, there is a topic of discussion here. So, some time ago, I (an atheist) came to the conclusion that it was a little weird/inappropriate for me to say "Bless you" when someone sneezed. So I stopped. And when I sneeze, I'll generally say "Excuse me", much like if I were to cough or burp publicly (not that I do that often or if I can at all help it). But I still feel a slight twinge when someone sneezes. I feel justified in not saying anything, but at the same time I feel like my silence is rude, and I know I've gotten the occasional look from others who notice when I don't give the customary response. So anywho, out of curiosity I did some googling and of course came across the usual attempts to explain the origin of the phrase (the Black Plague, expelling the demons, etc.). I'm honestly not too interested in which is true. It just doesn't have any bearing on the reason most people say it today, which I think is typically purely reflexive - it's just the customary/polite thing to do. But what I did find interesting is that the US seems to be relatively alone here. Many other nations apparently say something along the lines of "To your health", which I find quite appropriate.
Now, I don't think I'll actually adopt this phrase because honestly it would sound a bit weird around here, and I think I'm better off just keeping quiet. But I am curious what other atheists, non-Christian Americans, and those who live outside the US say when someone sneezes. And for you atheists, was there a point where you had to think about it and make a decision, or have you just always done whatever you do now?
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posted
I (an atheist) don't really have a problem saying "bless you".
Most people where I am don't actually use it to mean "The Lord God turn His Favor upon you." They use it to mean "[symbolic noise uttered when someone nearby sneezes]". So that's what I mean when I use it, and I think most people get that. If I lived someplace different, I might feel dishonest about it knowing that others were understanding something different than what I intended.
ETA: In that case, I might say "gesundheit" or "salud". Sometimes I do anyway.
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I'm still a closet atheist when it comes to these kinds of things. The short-term gains of being accepted in everyday social encounters outweighs the long-term gains of making atheism more acceptable in society.
Or maybe I'm just a coward and a liar. The truth is, with where I'm living now, my job depends on me being seen as a normal christian boy.
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posted
I also am somewhat of a closet atheist. But I stopped saying "bless you" at sneezes even before I lost my faith. It just seemed a silly thing to do to me. Now, being an unbeliever, I think it would be uncomfortable for me to say it if I was still in the habit.
Instead, in reference to an episode of Seinfeld, when someone sneezes, I say, "You are soooooo good lookin'."
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I grew up saying "Gesundheit" in place of "bless you", partly because I was raised in an atheist household and partly because I'm full blooded German. I haven't yet broken that habit.
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I remember linking to an article on French Canadian swearing, the majority have religious origins but have lost their original meaning to such an extent that most people don't know about them. Similarly, I know a fair number of Chinese and English insults that probably don't carry their original meaning anymore.
Since I can largely strip swears and curses of their original meaning, I don't really see the problem with other more positive common phrases either really.
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I normally say either Salud or Gesundheit. Lately I also sometimes say "Good Luck," but that's only when I feel like being deliberately weird.
I think I also sometimes say "Bless you," which is less specific in meaning than God Bless You (and also seems to roll off the tongue easier).
In any case, I don't think there's any reason to deliberately exclude oneself from the social convention. There's plenty of acceptable secular responses.
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I don't say anything. What makes a sneeze all that different from a burp, cough, or fart? I don't say anything to those either.
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Since I think the religiosity inherent in most usage of "bless you" is nonexistent I think it's as appropriate for an atheist to say as a devout believer.
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throw your hands up in the air and yell..."SWINE FLU!! SWINE FLU!!! You fool, you've doomed us all." then run out of the room screaming.
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quote:Since I think the religiosity inherent in most usage of "bless you" is nonexistent I think it's as appropriate for an atheist to say as a devout believer.
On one hand, I think the ubiquity of "bless you" is so low on the list of things that I have an issue with in American society that it may as well be non-existant... on the other hand, for the average person, saying "One Nation Under God" or "In God We Trust" or any one of a number of common religious rituals is meaninglessly secular, but when you add them all together it does create an environment where religion is omnipresent in a way that is somewhat frustrating.
There are far more important issues (in particular those that are reinforced by government) but I don't think it's unreasonable for an atheist to feel slighted by the custom.
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I think if kids are sufficiently Americanized to get "knock - knock" jokes, they will get "bless you". I don't know about "gesundheit", I suspect that varies more from region to region.
II'm rather suprised to hear people concerned with the religiousity of saying "bless you". Do you also avoid saying good-bye because of its original religious meaning?
I'm living in an English speaking country that has a substantial population of Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews and just about everything else. When some one sneeze, people say "bless you" and no sees a problem with it.
posted
Whenever someone sneezes around me, I always make a high-pitched "ooh!" sound, expressing alarm. If they sneeze again, I repeat, only an octave higher. This gets hilarious if there's at least three sneezes and a child involved.
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Well, personally I don't have a problem with it, but I don't know if "lighten up" is helpful.
After all, I do recall some here having problems with stuff like 'God damnit' or 'Jesus Christ' used as curses in a secular context so it kinda cuts both ways.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I think if kids are sufficiently Americanized to get "knock - knock" jokes, they will get "bless you". I don't know about "gesundheit", I suspect that varies more from region to region.
II'm rather suprised to hear people concerned with the religiousity of saying "bless you". Do you also avoid saying good-bye because of its original religious meaning?
I'm living in an English speaking country that has a substantial population of Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews and just about everything else. When some one sneeze, people say "bless you" and no sees a problem with it.
Lighten up.
Not sure if this was directed at anyone in particular, but this was never a life-altering thing for me. It was a minor decision of mine that I thought might make an interesting topic. Just because someone is contemplating or discussing a not-so-important topic in detail doesn't mean they're getting all uptight over it.
Honestly, I think if anyone needs to "lighten up" it's those who have a significant problem with what I say or don't say when they sneeze.
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I sometimes say "I still like you" when people sneeze. Other times I just say "salud".
Heh. That's awesome.
I did say "gesundheit" for some time, but believe it or not I've actually had many people ask me what it means.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I don't say anything. What makes a sneeze all that different from a burp, cough, or fart? I don't say anything to those either.
I guess that's pretty much how I feel about it.
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Since I think the religiosity inherent in most usage of "bless you" is nonexistent I think it's as appropriate for an atheist to say as a devout believer.
That's a valid point, too. I'm not searching for a universal rule here, though. Ultimately I say just go with whatever you're comfortable with.
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posted
I used to mix in salud or gesundheit growing up just for fun. Then at some point after I became an atheist i though about it more consciously and decided that I didn't want to use bless you. Then I realized some time later that I still say jesus christ and god damn it, and so what's the difference? The words aren't used to mean what they used to mean. So now I use all of them again.
This reminds me of the south park where they get the word "fag" changed in the dictionary to mean "loud annoying harley riders".
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The secular use of "Jesus" is an interesting point, although I'm not sure which side it supports. I know plenty of people who are offended by the casual use of Jesus as a swear word. You could either say that it's all secularized and nobody should care, or you could say that everyone should be sensitive about offending other people. You could also make the point that Jesus being used as a swear word is genuinely offensive to a Christian in a way that saying "God Bless" isn't as (directly) offensive to an atheist.
posted
I had that partly in mind. I figure that there are two consistent ways of handling the situation. First, whether you're a Christian or an atheist, if you want people to be considerate of saying "Jesus" or "bless you" then you should be considerate toward other people. The second is the "nothing is sacred" approach, you're free to say anything and so is everyone else.
I personally adhere to the second school so I would find it hypocritical to find offence in something as irrelevant as "bless you."
That said, that wasn't really my main point. I was just pointing on a practical level, "lighten up" is the kind of thing that gets people's hackles up even if the issue is as minor as this.
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I guess I just don't know any Christians who say "bless you" after a sneeze with a sense of reverence or who would consider it a prayer. Its just an expression we use in polite discourse. The fact that it has some religious origin is irrelevant. Maybe I'm out of touch and lots of people say this with genuine religiosity, but I doubt it.
I don't care whether you say anything at all when I sneeze. I'm a bit surprised that you feel like people are offended if you don't say something when they sneeze. It's not a habit I've ever practiced and I haven't noticed anyone taking offense and I know more than enough people who are willing to speak out when they are offended. If there are in fact people who take offense at your silence, they do need to lighten up.
Right now I'm living in a country with much higher religious diversity than the US and much greater religious tolerance than the US. What I've learned from living here is that Americans really need to lighten up about religion.
Christians need to lighten up and recognize that they aren't an endangered and persecuted minority. They have plenty of ways to express their religion freely without demanding time in public schools and prayers at football games. Athiests need to recognize that exposure to religiosity isn't the equivalent of breathing second hand smoke.
And if my telling you to "lighten up" raises your hackles, lighten up.
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I made a conscious decision to stop saying "bless you" about two years ago. Likewise, this is because I was an atheist who wasn't quite comfortable with the religious overtones.
I switched to "gesundheit", which appears to mean "to your health". I'm much more comfortable with that.
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Its not that I dislike using the "Bless you" phrase.
Its that I don't want someone else to be disturbed by using the "Bless you" phrase.
Its not the Evangelical protecting the sacredness of Blessings that makes me hesitate.
Its the rabid Atheist who worries me. I don't want a parent complaining, or yelling, or exploding, that I fouled their child's faith-free lifestyle with religious ideology. So the question isn't to the faithful if "Bless You" is ok. The question goes to the Atheists in our midsts.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I had that partly in mind. I figure that there are two consistent ways of handling the situation. First, whether you're a Christian or an atheist, if you want people to be considerate of saying "Jesus" or "bless you" then you should be considerate toward other people. The second is the "nothing is sacred" approach, you're free to say anything and so is everyone else.
I personally adhere to the second school so I would find it hypocritical to find offence in something as irrelevant as "bless you."
That said, that wasn't really my main point. I was just pointing on a practical level, "lighten up" is the kind of thing that gets people's hackles up even if the issue is as minor as this.
I try to adhere to a combination of both when engaging in conversation that is meant to be polite - greetings, condolences, good wishes, and so forth. I try to be considerate of their wishes while not getting too bent if they lacking malice fail to consider mine.
Rollainm, my fall back would be, "Oh dear, I hope you aren't coming down with something." Or if they clearly have, "You poor thing. Can I get you anything?" or "Why the h*** are you at work?"
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