quote:Originally posted by Mucus: katharina: Hmmm, those two attributes do not seem unique to Mormons though. Are converts to Christianity (or religion) in general also similarly unbalanced to such a degree (e.g. 2:1 in Rabbits example)? And if not, what makes women particularly attracted to Mormonism as opposed to other religions?
I can't speak about converts to other religions, but I have noticed whenever I attend another church that a disproportionate majority of attendees are women. If anything, the Mormon church (at least today) seems to be more gender balanced than many other churchs. I've known lots of families where the wife attended church services regularly and the husband did not and very few vice a versa. I have no idea why, but at least in America and Europe, women seem more attracted to organized religion and communal worship than men.
It may be a Christian thing. A couple years ago, I spent a week meditating in a Benedictine monastery in Germany. The Christian contemplation class was > 80% women. The same monastery also hosted a Zen meditation course, it maybe a little over 50% men.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I've known lots of families where the wife attended church services regularly and the husband did not and very few vice a versa.
We're one of those weird vice a versa families but I do agree that most of the people I know are the other way around. It makes it particularly difficult for me to find social networks and until recently, I tried religious groups just because I couldn't find anything else. Finally, in the last year or so, I've managed to find some friends who either aren't Christian or who don't care that I'm not.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Christine, how'd you find them? My wife needs to do something similar.
Not easily, and it's even worse for me because I can't drive (legally blind). The one I'd consider my best friend at the moment was someone I met through my son's kid's day out program. Her son is almost exactly his same age and when she found out I walked to the kid's day out program rain or shine, she offered to give me a ride on bad weather days. Of course, at first you talk about superficial stuff but gradually we worked our way up to doing play dates together, talking about books, and finally talking about religion. It's been great to talk to someone who is non-judgmental about both my doubts and my beliefs.
The other way I've met a few people is through a book club that a neighbor invited me to join 3 years ago. They're not into science fiction and fantasy, which is a bummer, but it has helped me to expand my literary horizons. That group has changed a bit over the years, which is a good thing. We're now down to a core group that I think is fairly open-minded.
What I really want to do next is find some people to play cards/games with.
So I guess to make a long story short (too late) you find some interests you have that are non-religious and make that a focus in your attempt to meet people....hobby groups, children, that sort of thing.
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posted
Hmmm, the only part that I can find that addresses specifically the gender ratio of converts is in the pdf for chapter 2,
Specifically:
quote:With respect to other demographic characteristics, the Landscape Survey reveals few major demographic differences in the rates of religious change. For instance, men are only slightly more likely to switch affiliation than women (45% vs. 42%).
It also seems that women are slightly more likely to convert to other similar religions while men are slightly more likely to convert to completely different religions.
posted
Someone brought up jealousy earlier, and that is a large problem that polyamoury type relationships deal with, but it's not an uncontrollable emotion, and only when not dealt with in a conscious manner, do problems arise it seems.
Once I realized that my feelings were out of insecurities that I was harboring about myself, the relationship, the future, it allowed me to start dealing with them in a conscious manner. My boyfriend and I acknowledged that we went from the gay closet to committed relationship, without any in-between to experiment, and learn about ourselves sexually and emotionally.
Despite the rocky road, I can firmly say that opening up our relationship has been and continues to be an amazing growth experience. We're both learning more about ourselves, how we tick, etc, and the kinds of people we want to be and the communities we want to hang out with.
Self improvement guru Steve Pavlina announced at the beginning of this year that he and his wife were exploring polyamory, and he included a variety of good resources into the subject.
My boyfriend and I are currently reading "The Ethical Slut" which really makes some good points. They raise an interesting point about the word "slut" and how it defines a promiscuous woman, but the same type of activity for a man is labeled as being a "stud" and looked on more favorably. There's an incredible amount of conditioning that we have, that really doesn't get questioned, and as we're exploring a more open relationship, we're learning a lot and beginning to question some of those beliefs that we were raised with.
It isn't for everyone to be sure, but I wouldn't say it's worse or better than monogamy. I'd recommend The Ethical Slut or Steve Pavlina's blog if anyone is interested.
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quote:Originally posted by Earendil18: There's an incredible amount of conditioning that we have, that really doesn't get questioned,
This is untrue. There has been lots and lots of questioning of the reasons we involve ourselves in monogamous relationships and the reasons there is a double standard. Among other things, there's never a question who the mom is. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Promiscuous men are not looked upon universally favorably. It is also not true that the double standard doesn't get questioned.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Promiscuous men are not looked upon universally favorably.
This is a good point, although I have definitely detected a double standard. It's more subtle -- even in religious circles it seems more important that women remain virginal to their wedding day. In fact, you get some teasing of virginal adolescent men...they will often lie about this fact. Virginal 20-something men is something that many people consider a sign of weakness whereas a virginal 20-something woman is just innocent or devout.
What I see as being frowned upon is overly promiscuous men, the kind that never gets into a relationship for longer than a few weeks or worse, just likes one nighters, and worst of all -- unfaithful men.
As far as open relationships go: I knew one guy in college who was into that. He joked that he had a harem....wasn't too far off. Technically, the openness would have gone both ways but in reality he just attracted several women with low self-esteem and convinced them that it was a good idea until finally, one of them put her foot down and made him choose.
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quote:even in religious circles it seems more important that women remain virginal to their wedding day. In fact, you get some teasing of virginal adolescent men...they will often lie about this fact. Virginal 20-something men is something that many people consider a sign of weakness whereas a virginal 20-something woman is just innocent or devout.
Not my religious circles. Not at all. That is utterly foreign to my experience.
The double standard is terrible, but wouldn't it be better to encourage ethical and moral sexual behavior in everyone rather than making it expected of no one?
quote:even in religious circles it seems more important that women remain virginal to their wedding day. In fact, you get some teasing of virginal adolescent men...they will often lie about this fact. Virginal 20-something men is something that many people consider a sign of weakness whereas a virginal 20-something woman is just innocent or devout.
Not my religious circles. Not at all. That is utterly foreign to my experience.
I figured you would say that, because you've indicated this in the past and I'm glad you've found such a community. But yours is not the only religious circle in the country. I lived in three states (all in the Bible Belt) as a single woman and joined a number of religious groups seeking acceptance and friendship. There has always been a subtle double standard.
quote: The doulbe standard is terrible, but wouldn't it be better to encourage ethical and moral sexual behavior in everyone rather than making it expected of no one? [/QB]
I don't know....are your standards the same as mine? Whose standards are we going to encourage? Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Then you could say "some" or "my" religious circles rather than "even in religious circles", which implies all of them.
quote:I don't know....are your standards the same as mine? Whose standards are we going to encourage?
Everyone encourage what they consider moral, and apply it equally to everyone? I'm not talking about the force of law, so there doesn't need to be just one answer.
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quote:Everyone encourage what they consider moral, and apply it equally to everyone?
You run into problems with that in that what people consider moral can differ across different classes of people. Men versus women, married people versus single people, people in my religion versus everyone else, etc.
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posted
Fortunately, all of those things can happen and the world will carry on just fine. The world doesn't collapse if someone disapproves of your actions, and the world doesn't collapse if someone does something you don't approve of.
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posted
Was that directed at what I said? If so, I don't think you understand what I meant.
I was saying that people's ideas of what they consider moral is different across groups, so that applying it equally to everyone is often going to look like not applying it equally.
For example, considering it okay for men to be promiscuous but not okay for women can be a case of applying what is moral equally.
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quote:even in religious circles it seems more important that women remain virginal to their wedding day. In fact, you get some teasing of virginal adolescent men...they will often lie about this fact. Virginal 20-something men is something that many people consider a sign of weakness whereas a virginal 20-something woman is just innocent or devout.
Not my religious circles. Not at all. That is utterly foreign to my experience.
The double standard is terrible, but wouldn't it be better to encourage ethical and moral sexual behavior in everyone rather than making it expected of no one?
Within the standards of what is acceptable LDS physical romantic interaction, is it more okay for guys to have more partners than women?
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quote:applying it equally to everyone is often going to look like not applying it equally.
So?
quote:Within the standards of what is acceptable LDS physical romantic interaction, is it more okay for guys to have more partners than women?
You mean sexual partners? No. The standard is chastity before marriage and fidelity after, and that's for both sexes.
If you are talking about less dramatic physical interaction, macking on multiple people is looked down on for everyone.
In other words, you can date as many as you want at a time but it's sketchy and skanky to be kissing more than one at a time, and that holds regardless of gender.
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posted
If it helps any, I do not recall any models noted on Hatrack that propose the world collapsing in the case of immoral behaviour.
The closest would be the "fiery meteor death" scenario, but even that would be more of an explosion rather than an implosion.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Then you could say "some" or "my" religious circles rather than "even in religious circles", which implies all of them.
quote:I don't know....are your standards the same as mine? Whose standards are we going to encourage?
Everyone encourage what they consider moral, and apply it equally to everyone? I'm not talking about the force of law, so there doesn't need to be just one answer.
Perhaps I should have said "many" but I thought it was implied...I was not suggesting that every person and every social circle across the country felt the same way about this issue, even in non-religious circles.
As for the rest...definitely. I hold men and women to exactly the same standard. For me, that is honesty and fidelity. I believe in truth and vows. I am not particularly concerned about chastity though open promiscuity strikes me as troubling.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: For example, considering it okay for men to be promiscuous but not okay for women can be a case of applying what is moral equally.
I'm not following this...
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posted
Men and women are different classes of people, so it may be morally okay or even correct for a man to be promiscuous while morally wrong and degrading for a woman to be.
It's a case where there are different rules for different classes of people. The rules are applied equally, but the context or group that they are applied to are different.
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posted
I just want to point out when I refer to poly I'm referring to Poly-Fidelity, not swinging or having an open relationship. (except an open relationship as Dating to find a stable third.)
I realize this is not the way others see it, including Ambyr. It makes since that her group would not seek marriage rights.
Kath: I don't believe your experience is wide spread in America. As near as I can tell, even amongst the faithful, it's ok for guys to have had many more partners than women.
BTW, speaking of double standards... Back when I was dating, I was looking for a relationship, not just sex. I wanted to make sure the person I was with was someone I could potentially spend the rest of my life with before hopping into the sack. Anyway if you say "Not yet" to a guy, they generally take it ok. If you say "Not yet" to a woman you generally don't get another date. I have no idea how many potential girlfriends I lost simply because I wouldn't put out.
Earendil: Congratulations on coming out and having someone special to do it with! I was the one who mentioned Jealousy. I found it was manageable until one day I was unceremoniously dumped out of a 3.5 yr relationship. (which, at the time, was my longest relationship.) Worse yet, it had nothing to do with poly. (but that is a sob story for another time.) Anyway, after that my jealousy was fed by my insecurities.
I hope that never happens to you, but please understand why some people have a harder time with it than others.
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posted
Sometimes a rule can be applied equally, but the inequality is incorporated into the rule itself. "Men can have many partners, women can only have one" can be applied consistently.
It reminds me of the "gay people already have equal rights to marriage - they can marry someone of the opposite sex" argument.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I picture the world collapsing as more like a building collapsing than an implosion. ...
I guess if I think it through, that would be correct. Maybe something like the world being sucked into itself like a black hole (e.g. Star Trek)?
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Men and women are different classes of people, so it may be morally okay or even correct for a man to be promiscuous while morally wrong and degrading for a woman to be.
It's a case where there are different rules for different classes of people. The rules are applied equally, but the context or group that they are applied to are different.
Are we back at separate but equal?
Look, having rules differ based on race, social class, sex, or anything else is a double standard, by definition. Perhaps you think the double standard is ok, but it's still a double standard.
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posted
Christine, Do you think holding moral rules that says that married people should have sex but that unmarried people should not is a double standard?
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Christine, Do you think holding moral rules that says that married people should have sex but that unmarried people should not is a double standard?
Possibly, it depends upon whether you think that the term applies to a distinction that is a matter of choice. My husband got down on one knee and proposed. I said yes. I was born a woman -- nobody asked.
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quote:In other words, you can date as many as you want at a time but it's sketchy and skanky to be kissing more than one at a time, and that holds regardless of gender.
That's not actually what I meant to ask about, though I could see how that might come across.
Let's say there's a limit of acceptable romantic physical interaction X, be it sex or fondling or deep kissing, etc. Is it more acceptable for a guy to have, in his past, mostly monogamously, done X with many girls than for a girl to have done X with many guys?
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quote:Possibly, it depends upon whether you think that the term applies to a distinction that is a matter of choice.
Do you think that there should not be different moral rules for adults versus children? That's a distinction that is not a matter of choice.
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posted
We have double standards for the handicapped versus the non-handicapped - for instance, expectations regarding giving up your seat on the bus for the elderly. Some handicapped people are born handicapped, so they have no choice in the matter.
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quote: Is it more acceptable for a guy to have, in his past, mostly monogamously, done X with many girls than for a girl to have done X with many guys?
No. Although, there is such a strong cultural taboo in general against doing much more than kissing that neither gender would exactly announce the fact. Perhaps that's your answer - "locker room" stories are not welcome from either gender.
It isn't that the only taboo is actual sex. Most things between deep kissing/snuggling and actual sex are also off limits, so doing them at all will not meet with social approval, much less with a lot of people, guys or girls.
quote:Possibly, it depends upon whether you think that the term applies to a distinction that is a matter of choice.
Do you think that there should not be different moral rules for adults versus children? That's a distinction that is not a matter of choice.
I'm not even sure why or how we got here, but you seem to have completely missed my point. I never said all double standards were always a bad thing. Here's what I said:
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Look, having rules differ based on race, social class, sex, or anything else is a double standard, by definition. Perhaps you think the double standard is ok, but it's still a double standard.
Let me go back to the comment that began this line of discussion:
quote:I was saying that people's ideas of what they consider moral is different across groups, so that applying it equally to everyone is often going to look like not applying it equally.
This is where I take exception. Applying different standards across groups does not just have the appearance of inequality, it is unequal.
Do you think there should be differing standards for men and women in terms of sexual relationships?
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quote:Applying different standards across groups does not just have the appearance of inequality, it is unequal.
It's unequal, but my point is where the inequality comes in. It does not have to be that you are applying standards unequally. It can be that the standards are unequal.
The criticism that people are applying their standard unequally isn't going to affect them when, in their perception, they have different standards for different groups.
I tried to show examples in our culture where we accept that people in one group are held to different standards than people in another.
---
I don't have different standards for men and women in terms of sexual relationships.
Do I think that other people should not have them? That's a trickier question.
Legally, yes, of course I think they should be equal standards. However, social/moral standards is a different question. To me, it depends on a lot on how they view the concepts in question, what they are trying to accomplish, and how realistic there are in these things.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: A boyfriend is not a husband.
Everything changes when you have kids.
quote:Originally posted by Earendil18: There's an incredible amount of conditioning that we have, that really doesn't get questioned,
This is untrue. There has been lots and lots of questioning of the reasons we involve ourselves in monogamous relationships and the reasons there is a double standard. Among other things, there's never a question who the mom is.
A boyfriend could be a husband, but current GLBT rights aren't up there yet in most states. I'm not sure if you're saying one is better than the other, but it brings up the question of how one rates the relationship, and again, those assumptions. I think there can be bad husbands, and great boyfriends.
Maybe not the biological mom, but who actually nurtures and cares for the kids, and what effect that has is being debated. Some believe that if kids don't get that special something from both sexes, they're deprived somehow. Gender roles are being questioned.
I'm sure there has been questioning about the reasons to stay monogamous, but I suspect those questions, especially in religious circles, contain assumptions regarding what children require, what the "best" kind of relationship is, etc. in order to support the status quo, instead of looking at how polyamory could work, or investing energy into the investigation of such things.
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quote:Originally posted by Earendil18: A boyfriend could be a husband, but current GLBT rights aren't up there yet in most states. I'm not sure if you're saying one is better than the other, but it brings up the question of how one rates the relationship, and again, those assumptions. I think there can be bad husbands, and great boyfriends.
No, one is not better than the other. But they are different; they represent a different level of commitment, not to mention a different lifestyle. A boyfriend, however intimate, is a friend, not family. Marriage is a commitment to have a family together...no, to be a family. This is just one reason I am a whole-hearted supporter of the rights for gays to marry. They have every right to define their relationship as a family if they choose, as well as to bring children into it.
quote: I'm sure there has been questioning about the reasons to stay monogamous, but I suspect those questions, especially in religious circles, contain assumptions regarding what children require, what the "best" kind of relationship is, etc. in order to support the status quo, instead of looking at how polyamory could work, or investing energy into the investigation of such things.
See, now we're not arguing whether or not polygamous relationships should be legal, but whether or not they would work.
Honestly, I have no idea what the answer to that is and I'm not claiming to know. I will say, though, that the people I've known who got themselves involved in "open" relationships had terribly low self-esteem and were afraid that they would lose their partner if they did not agree to such a relationship. I've seen this type of relationship used to hurt people and have never seen it in any kind of loving or healthy light. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen that way sometimes -- but it does mean you're going to have to get specific and persuasive to convince me. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Earendil18: A boyfriend could be a husband, but current GLBT rights aren't up there yet in most states. I'm not sure if you're saying one is better than the other, but it brings up the question of how one rates the relationship, and again, those assumptions. I think there can be bad husbands, and great boyfriends.
No, one is not better than the other. But they are different; they represent a different level of commitment, not to mention a different lifestyle. A boyfriend, however intimate, is a friend, not family. Marriage is a commitment to have a family together...no, to be a family. This is just one reason I am a whole-hearted supporter of the rights for gays to marry. They have every right to define their relationship as a family if they choose, as well as to bring children into it.
quote: I'm sure there has been questioning about the reasons to stay monogamous, but I suspect those questions, especially in religious circles, contain assumptions regarding what children require, what the "best" kind of relationship is, etc. in order to support the status quo, instead of looking at how polyamory could work, or investing energy into the investigation of such things.
See, now we're not arguing whether or not polygamous relationships should be legal, but whether or not they would work.
Honestly, I have no idea what the answer to that is and I'm not claiming to know. I will say, though, that the people I've known who got themselves involved in "open" relationships had terribly low self-esteem and were afraid that they would lose their partner if they did not agree to such a relationship. I've seen this type of relationship used to hurt people and have never seen it in any kind of loving or healthy light. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen that way sometimes -- but it does mean you're going to have to get specific and persuasive to convince me.
Hehe, well, it's still a work in progress, and so far I think we're both on the same page and are communicating well.
I'm still not sure about the friend definition as we have several friends in my family, who might as well be part of our family. I think I understand what you're saying though.
As for persuasion, well...all I have is "so far, so good" and "amazing learning experience". Maybe I'll catch up with you in a few years. Posts: 1236 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Polygamy reference case could open door to legalizing multiple marriage
By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun November 21, 2010
Canada is on the cusp of either legalizing polygamy or strengthening the 120-year prohibition against multiple marriage.
That’s what is at stake in the constitutional reference case that will begin Monday in B.C. Supreme Court and is scheduled to last at least until the end of January.
The case will weigh whether Canada’s anti-polygamy law is constitutional. The reference case was initiated by B.C. attorney general Mike de Jong to finally get a clear legal lens through which to examine the fundamentalist Mormon community of Bountiful in southeastern British Columbia.
If Chief Justice Robert Bauman agrees with those in favour of legalization, Canada would be the first country in the developed world to lift the prohibition on multiple marriage. It would be swimming against a tide of criminalization in developing countries in Africa and Asia.
It would also likely be interpreted as Canada putting out a welcome mat for fundamentalist Mormons, who have been largely rooted out of Utah and Arizona and are under attack in Texas, as well as to Muslims, Wiccans and to secular polyamorists.
...
Like all trials, there are two sides in the reference case. But unlike criminal and civil trials, there are also interested parties, who have registered in order to be able to make opening and closing statements, file evidence, call and cross-examine witnesses.
The attorneys general of British Columbia and Canada will both argue in favour of the existing law. They’ll be first up when the case begins next week.
Their “allies” include: Stop Polygamy in Canada, Christian Legal Fellowship, B.C. Teachers Federation, West Coast LEAF, Real Women Canada, Canadian Coalition for the Rights of the Child and the David Asper Centre for Constitutional Rights.
To make the opposing case, the chief justice appointed Vancouver lawyer George Macintosh as the amicus curiae — friend of the court — to advance the striking down of the law.
Allied with Macintosh are: the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Canadian Polyamory Advocacy Association, B.C. Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association for Free Expression.
posted
That's interesting that the teachers are arguing against it. On the one hand, dealing with two parents who don't like each other very much is bad enough, what happens when the kid has eight ex-step moms? On the other, more step-parents means more volunteers for school functions. I'd have thought it would be a wash for the school.
I'll be really curious to hear the school's rationale.
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