posted
Basically I'm trying to explain to people the Jewish side of their belief based from what I have read here, basically the time of when I read it here, and when I repeat it to someone else usually as such a gap that its hard to sound assertive and confident and trust my own memory.
Basically rather then discuss a already been discussed to death topic that will lead to eventually Ron/Resh and Lisa/Kom arguing with each other pointlessly to avoid this if possible and not too much effort can someone email me the documentation and links to a comprenhensive explainations with the Torah/Talmud/Book of Moses sources.
Thank you for your time and efforts on my behalf. Once I recieve the information I will delete the thread before an argument breaks out.
Basically what I ask is why Jews do not believe "Jesus" is the Messiah.
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The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach“, which means “Anointed.“ It usually refers to a person initiated into God’s service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)
Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: “God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord’s Messiah [Saul]...“ (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)
Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)
Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)
Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.
1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES (back)
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH (back)
A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET
Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets—Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.
B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID
According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father—and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David! (2) SEE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH’S RESPONSE TO THIS QUESTION
C. TORAH OBSERVANCE
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS (back)
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text—which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
A. VIRGIN BIRTH
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
B. CRUCIFIXION
The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."
C. SUFFERING SERVANT
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.
From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire." For further reading on the "suffering servant": http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-ss.html
4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION (back)
Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation—i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He’ll tell everyone, not just one person.
Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God’s true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show—assuming they are genuine—is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.
Judaism, unique among all of the world’s major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):
The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone’s belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.
What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others… as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you…" The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us—who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.
See "Did God Speak at Mount Sinai" for further reading.
The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.
A. GOD AS THREE?
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God’s One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry—one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.
B. MAN AS GOD?
Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)
C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?
The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary—i.e. confessing one’s sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)
D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD
Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.
By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.
The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don’t retreat from life, we elevate it.
Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."
The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they’d never have destroyed it.
Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.
For further study of the Seven Laws of Noah: The Seven Laws of Noah
Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God’s plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age.
Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"
How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.
Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.
The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today—if you hearken to His voice."
by Rabbi Shraga Simmons Largely adapted from Aish.com
posted
Couple of thoughts on the link from an atheist:
quote:Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry.
I did not know of this belief, and find it pretty interesting. Having God able to make direct revelations to a religion would seem pretty important. Are any persons or groups trying to get this to all of the Jews together so that this could come back? Due to population density problems, I wonder if prophecy could ever come again without a massive extinction level event. I suppose you also could ask the Jews outside of Israel to stop reproducing, so that the next generation can receive prophecy.
quote:If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He’ll tell everyone, not just one person.
But he didn't tell "everyone", he allegedly told one group of people living in one place at one time. He didn't tell me, I'm sure I'd remember it. The entire section strikes me as an attempt at critical thinking against one religion that ignores the fact that the idea cuts both ways.
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A note -- What is posted above should NOT be considered an accurate source concerning Catholic beliefs.
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Couple of thoughts on the link from an atheist:
quote:Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry.
I did not know of this belief, and find it pretty interesting.
Me neither, and I find it incorrect. If it were true, Jeremiah wouldn't have been a prophet, since the majority of Jews had been exiled by Assyria before he was even born.
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I think this is very interesting, and it makes sense to me. Thanks for this information. The thing I loved so much when reading Chaim Potok (whom I know is problematic to many Orthodox Jews, but whom I love) is how through prayer mundane aspects of life are made (or rather, recognized and shown to be) divine and holy.
I seem to gain religious insights from all different religions with which I come into contact. My own religious tradition (LDS) tells me this is correct: that all religions have some true knowledge and everything true is part of our religion. Anyway, thank you for improving my knowledge of Judaism.
I love the idea that in every generation someone is alive who has the ability to take the role of messiah. A similar idea is expressed in "The Last Temptation of Christ" by Nikos Kazantzakis, that multiple people lived who were almost Christ or potentially Christ, but who turned away, took another path, weren't able to live up or fulfill the requirements, until Jesus came, who despite temptation held out to the end. I love that book because of how it personified Christ to me as truly human, as well as divine. It's responsible for me being a Christian rather than Buddhist or Hindu, I think, since I encountered it during a formative time in hs.
Why do you think God chose Israel as his people in Moses' day? What qualities did they have that set them apart as the civilization or culture most ready to hear God's word?
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Well, actually, God chose Abraham. And then He chose Isaac, and then Jacob. Or rather, they chose Him. We left Egypt based on God's promise to Abraham. But then we accepted His Torah when we were in the desert. There's an interesting midrash about that.
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quote:Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not.
Is there a difference between the Torah of Moses, and what's commonly known as the Torah?
Because from what I understand from other conversations, non-Jews are not supposed to study the Torah.
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God was looking for a people to be his chosen people. He saw a Hittite, and He said: "I'm looking for a people who will be my chosen people - interested?" The Hittite said: "I don't know, what do we have to do?" God said: "Just follow my commandments." The Hittite asked God what the commandments were. God said: "Well, do not kill." The Hittite said: "Sorry, not interested." God talked to an Assyrian and Phoenician and they both told God that they liked war, and they couldn't follow the commandments. Then God saw Moses in the desert. He approached him and said: "I'm looking for a people to be my chosen people - are you interested?" Moses said: "I don't know, what's involved?" God said: "You just have to follow my commandments." Moses said: "Like what?" God said: "Well, thou shalt not kill." Moses said: "That's it? What will it cost us?" God said: "Cost? It won't cost you anything." Moses said: "Well, in that case, I'll take all you've got."
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Basically I'm trying to explain to people the Jewish side of their belief based from what I have read here, basically the time of when I read it here, and when I repeat it to someone else usually as such a gap that its hard to sound assertive and confident and trust my own memory.
Basically rather then discuss a already been discussed to death topic that will lead to eventually Ron/Resh and Lisa/Kom arguing with each other pointlessly to avoid this if possible and not too much effort can someone email me the documentation and links to a comprenhensive explainations with the Torah/Talmud/Book of Moses sources.
Thank you for your time and efforts on my behalf. Once I recieve the information I will delete the thread before an argument breaks out.
Basically what I ask is why Jews do not believe "Jesus" is the Messiah.
Blayne, are you part of those Nigerian fraud email groups?
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As I went to sleep last night I pondered this thread...
It was so interesting to me that someone needed to ask why Jews DON'T believe in Jesus. Jews often ask why on earth anyone would believe in Jesus in the first place!
It's funny, having a strong background in OT - there isn't much that suggests a second coming, etc. While reading the NT, the NT so many times quotes OT verses and claims their fulfillment, trying to show its source in the OT.
I mean, i know this is stupid, but it never quite hit me that Christians would wonder why Jews aren't Christians and that Jews would wonder why Christians would ever be Christian.
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quote:Why do you think God chose Israel as his people in Moses' day? What qualities did they have that set them apart as the civilization or culture most ready to hear God's word?
I say this without any thought of condescension but I have found Jewish people to be absolutely wonderful people that I wish I knew more of. There's just something about them that makes me think on occasion, "It makes total sense that they are a peculiar people, and also God's chosen."
I can't really do a very good job of pointing out the specifics, but I do believe the whole is greater than the sum of its' parts.
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Also presenting Jesus in the vein of, "why don't the Jews accept him" is a topic of a potentially very volatile nature. I don't have much faith it will go very far.
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Also the idea that prophecy disappears whenever there is not a majority of Jewry in the holy land is completely new to me. Could somebody give me the rationale for that concept? How does it jibe with say Israel's blessing on all his sons before his death where he prophesied many things concerning them and their seed respectively. Clearly they were in Egypt at the time.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Also the idea that prophecy disappears whenever there is not a majority of Jewry in the holy land is completely new to me. Could somebody give me the rationale for that concept?
There is no rationale for it, because it isn't true. I don't know why they made that mistake, but it was definitely a mistake. There hasn't been a majority of the Jews in the Land of Israel since the Assyrian conquest. Jeremiah prophesied after that. So did Zephaniah and Huldah. And others.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Is there a difference between the Torah of Moses, and what's commonly known as the Torah?
The Torah of Moses is specifically the 5 books of Moses.
Just saying "the Torah" could refer to only the 5 books, or all the OT, or also the Oral Torah (midrash, mishneh, gemareh etc.), or just "kosher" Jewish thought.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Also the idea that prophecy disappears whenever there is not a majority of Jewry in the holy land is completely new to me. Could somebody give me the rationale for that concept?
There is no rationale for it, because it isn't true. I don't know why they made that mistake, but it was definitely a mistake. There hasn't been a majority of the Jews in the Land of Israel since the Assyrian conquest. Jeremiah prophesied after that. So did Zephaniah and Huldah. And others.
Didn't the prophets Haggai, Zacharaiah, and Malaci chastise the majority of world Jewry for staying in Babylonia instead of returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple?
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
to clarify i am not trying to ask "why wouldnt jews believe in jesus" in such a way that is condenscending etc, I do not conside myself christian, I am quite agnostic and like my agnsticism. I'm simply trying to learn more about this particular contraversy.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Also the idea that prophecy disappears whenever there is not a majority of Jewry in the holy land is completely new to me. Could somebody give me the rationale for that concept?
There is no rationale for it, because it isn't true. I don't know why they made that mistake, but it was definitely a mistake. There hasn't been a majority of the Jews in the Land of Israel since the Assyrian conquest. Jeremiah prophesied after that. So did Zephaniah and Huldah. And others.
Didn't the prophets Haggai, Zacharaiah, and Malaci chastise the majority of world Jewry for staying in Babylonia instead of returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple?
Actually, if you check out Haggai, his chastising was over the fact that those of us who *did* return hadn't rebuilt the Temple. Something which seems not to have changed over the past 2300 years.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Also the idea that prophecy disappears whenever there is not a majority of Jewry in the holy land is completely new to me. Could somebody give me the rationale for that concept?
There is no rationale for it, because it isn't true. I don't know why they made that mistake, but it was definitely a mistake. There hasn't been a majority of the Jews in the Land of Israel since the Assyrian conquest. Jeremiah prophesied after that. So did Zephaniah and Huldah. And others.
Didn't the prophets Haggai, Zacharaiah, and Malaci chastise the majority of world Jewry for staying in Babylonia instead of returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple?
Actually, if you check out Haggai, his chastising was over the fact that those of us who *did* return hadn't rebuilt the Temple. Something which seems not to have changed over the past 2300 years.
Well remember while they built it they were being attacked the whole time. I don't see many prophets chastising the Jews for not rebuilding the temple these days.
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Adenum, the only Messianic prophecies not fulfilled by Jesus are those that have not YET been fulfilled. The Bible presents three comings of the Messiah. The first, when He came to atone for the sins of all mankind, occurred two thousand years ago. The second, which could come within a few years, Jesus' feet will not touch the earth, but He will appear with the angels of God "shining as the lightning from the east to the west", and all the faithful (both those still living, and those who were dead but are resurrected) are gathered to "meet the Lord in the air" and are taken to Heaven for a thousand years. Then at the end of the millennium, Jesus will come a third time. This time His feet will touch the earth, a great valley will be created, and the New Jerusalem will come down from God out of Heaven to rest there. At that time the earth will be recreated. The lake of fire that ultimately destroys the wicked (including Satan and His fellow fallen angels), will cleanse the earth and allow it to be re-created as a global Edenic paradise. The faithful of God will be privileged to witness the renewal of Creation Week.
Many (but not all) Jews wrongly expected some of the prophecies that pertain to Jesus' second and third comings, to all apply to His first coming. Thus they were unwilling to receive Him at His first coming, because there they saw the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, with whose "stripes we are healed," instead of the King of kings who will come in the full glory of God.
The prophecies of Scripture must always be taken in context, so we can know which of the three comings of Christ the prophecies pertain to.
But the prophecies Jesus did fulfill number in the hundreds. These include most notably the time prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, which tells us exactly when Jesus would appear on the scene and be annointed (by the Holy Spirit at His baptism, right on schedule, 483 years after Ezra arrived in the land of Israel with the document from King Artaxerxes of Persia--in the fall of 457 B.C.--when Ezra published throughout the land the commandment "to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem") and in the "midst of the week," or three and one-half years later, Messiah would be "cut off, but not for Himself." Jesus was crucified three and one-half years after He began His ministry. At the end of the 70 weeks (the original language actually says "seventy sevens"), in 34 A.D., the gospel went to the Gentiles, signalling the inclusion of all the faithful of all nations into the spiritual Israel of God. These are very telling fulfillments. Only God who sees the end from the beginning could provide us with the exact time and schedule of events for the first coming of the Messiah.
[ March 14, 2009, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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posted
A note -- What is posted directly above should ALSO not be considered an accurate source concerning Catholic beliefs. Or the majority of Christianity, for that matter.
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posted
I, personally, have little doubt that the gospels were written (retconned?) with a certain goal in mind.
It also doesn't make a lot of difference to me whether Jesus was the Jewish messiah as expected by the Jewish prophets.
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Just because you can find some fanciful and strained means for explaining them away, does not mean you are really refuting them, and does not reduce the real weight of evidence--and the point comes where you make yourself look ridiculous trying.
You will never, ever be able to refute the time prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, no matter how hard you try. You can join with the atheists and just categorically deny everything. But if you believe the Bible is inspired by God, the point is proven that the true Messiah appeared on earth right when Bible prophecy predicted He would.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Also the idea that prophecy disappears whenever there is not a majority of Jewry in the holy land is completely new to me. Could somebody give me the rationale for that concept?
There is no rationale for it, because it isn't true. I don't know why they made that mistake, but it was definitely a mistake. There hasn't been a majority of the Jews in the Land of Israel since the Assyrian conquest. Jeremiah prophesied after that. So did Zephaniah and Huldah. And others.
Didn't the prophets Haggai, Zacharaiah, and Malaci chastise the majority of world Jewry for staying in Babylonia instead of returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple?
Actually, if you check out Haggai, his chastising was over the fact that those of us who *did* return hadn't rebuilt the Temple. Something which seems not to have changed over the past 2300 years.
Well remember while they built it they were being attacked the whole time. I don't see many prophets chastising the Jews for not rebuilding the temple these days.
Not prophets, perhaps, but men and women of spirit. There's a midrash that says the Jews were punished in the time of King David for not wanting to build the Temple. The obvious question is, "But God explicitly told David he couldn't build it. So how could He punish us for that?" And the answer is that it wasn't the not-building that got us punished. It was that the people didn't even care. They should have been champing at the bit to get it built. They should have been stockpiling materials and preparing vessels. They should have been excited about it.
In the time of Haggai, due to the libels of the Samaritans, the Persians had recinded their permission for us to rebuild the Temple. The world superpower said "no". But along came Haggai, and told them that the reason they were in poverty, and the reason everything was going wrong for them, was that they sat around in their own houses while God's House lay in ruins. How was it fair to blame them, when the Persians had forbidden us to rebuild? Because sometimes you just have to do the right thing, and damn the consequences. We don't rely on miracles generally speaking, but we do when it comes to obeying God.
That's why there's The Temple Institute. That's why there are some of us who are constantly trying to get other Jews to understand the importance of this thing.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Hundreds, Lisa, hundreds.
None, Ron, none.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Just because you can find some fanciful and strained means for explaining them away, does not mean you are really refuting them, and does not reduce the real weight of evidence--and the point comes where you make yourself look ridiculous trying.
I defer to the expert on looking ridiculous.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: You will never, ever be able to refute the time prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, no matter how hard you try.
You're so silly. The interpretation you want to put on that prophecy made things fail to match by seven years. So you invented a cockamamie fudge factor to squeeze it in. Pathetic, really.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: You can join with the atheists and just categorically deny everything. But if you believe the Bible is inspired by God, the point is proven that the true Messiah appeared on earth right when Bible prophecy predicted He would.
Wrong. The true Messiah won't blaspheme. He won't violate God's commandments publically. And most particularly, he won't get killed like a common criminal. He isn't divine; he's a regular human being.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Instead of just saying "yes he did" and "no he didn't" at each other with no evidence, check http://bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf for a bit of info on the prophecies Jesus fulfilled.
quote:Also presenting Jesus in the vein of, "why don't the Jews accept him" is a topic of a potentially very volatile nature. I don't have much faith it will go very far.
Look I (yes BlackBlade) fulfill one of the messianic prophecies by virtue of the fact that I'm a man. Whoopidee do! Arguing that Jesus didn't fulfill any or fulfilled all is absolutely pointless because none of us even agree over what each prophecy means specifically let alone the ones that actually refer to the messiah.
It does not appear that anybody wants to seriously discuss this without getting huffy about it, so just leave it.
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