Topic: Can it be ethically/logically proven or not proven that Porn is "demeaning" to women?
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I'm having a somewhat vicious argument with some people over this, they argue it is "degrading" to the woman to be objectified by being in porn, citing things like being economically forced into it, lower salaries, being forced to spend it on drugs blah blah blah rationalizations.
I know where I stand on this issue, I'ld like to hear the opinions of those better able to argue it or either side. (by hearing and understanding a better worded counter argument it becomes hence easier to rebut the weaker varient)
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One might argue from the Kantian view-point that the women aren't being used as an end in themselves, but merely as a means to an end.
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You could start out by deleting the duplicate thread you've made so everyone posts in the same one.
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<Shrug> I don't think you can prove it. The arguments you pointed out about the financial coercion, low salaries, and drug money are definitely true of the prostitution circuits. Pimps and madams focus on grabbing young, teenage girls that are in financial need. Often times the girls have been for all intents and purposes kidnapped. It's a horrible atrocity and involves sex trafficking and other abominations to society.
The porn ring though, sometimes women enjoy the attention they receive due to exhibitionism. Others don't hold moral qualms about pornography and simply view it as a lucrative source of income. In the porn industry, I'd imagine that more often than not it is a choice made by the woman to go into the industry not because of coercion but the attractiveness of the benefits. I think that you could make an argument about immorality of porn (it is all the time) but I think it would be hard to make the argument that the women are being demeaned for going into it.
If, on the other hand, your argument is that the audience demeans the woman as nothing more than an object of sexual satisfaction in their own mind, I think that there could be a lot of truth to that and you could logically argue that one. But for the people who are the creators of the product? Not so much.
Posts: 1831 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Why is it only women who are demeaned by porn?
Shouldn't a male actor be just as demeaned?
Oh wait, are we assuming that males are the instigators and masters of all sexual situations, and that women are helpless empty little pleasure pots?
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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When confronted with this argument, I like to ask which came first: the attitude towards women, or the pornography? The drug problems or the porn? etc. etc.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Have you ever noticed how only ugly women have a problem with pornography? These are usually the same women who raise hell about beauty competitions and barbie dolls creating an unrealistic body image, while not giving a gosh darn about the rippling-muscled action figures that boys play with.
Perhaps we should call a square a square and say people who think pr0n demeans women are... jealous?
(Oh, and I'm sure some guy who is so whipped by his woman that he thinks he doesn't actually enjoy porn is going to come on here and say "but wait! I'm a super-sensitive, feminist guy and porn isn't right! We should end this form of employment and self-expression for women at once!" To that fellow I say: grow a pair.)
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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Lots of women enjoy watching porn too. Just putting that out there, since I am sure this is one of those issues that the people who feel strongly will never in a million years change their minds.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by jebus202: Have you ever noticed how only ugly women have a problem with pornography? These are usually the same women who raise hell about beauty competitions and barbie dolls creating an unrealistic body image, while not giving a gosh darn about the rippling-muscled action figures that boys play with.
Perhaps we should call a square a square and say people who think pr0n demeans women are... jealous?
(Oh, and I'm sure some guy who is so whipped by his woman that he thinks he doesn't actually enjoy porn is going to come on here and say "but wait! I'm a super-sensitive, feminist guy and porn isn't right! We should end this form of employment and self-expression for women at once!" To that fellow I say: grow a pair.)
But there are ugly people in porn!
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There are also many porn actresses who are feminists and many who went to college and they still choose to enter the industry.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by T:man: But there are ugly people in porn!
Sure, that's 'cause some people who watch porn have such low self-confidence that they can't realistically fantasize about themselves with an attractive woman 'cause then they'd just be foolin' themselves.
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quote:Originally posted by T:man: But there are ugly people in porn!
Sure, that's 'cause some people who watch porn have such low self-confidence that they can't realistically fantasize about themselves with an attractive woman 'cause then they'd just be foolin' themselves.
So your sayin' that all women in porn are beautiful succubi?
Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
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Pornography is evil filth that ruins lives and tears apart families and discussing it with such bravado in a family-friendly environment is direspectful.
Do you need to have something scientifically proven before you'll leave it alone, or would the faces of sobbing women and children be enough for you?
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Annie: Do you need to have something scientifically proven before you'll leave it alone, or would the faces of sobbing women and children be enough for you?
Proof would be good.
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quote:Originally posted by Annie: Pornography is evil filth that ruins lives and tears apart families and discussing it with such bravado in a family-friendly environment is direspectful.
Do you need to have something scientifically proven before you'll leave it alone, or would the faces of sobbing women and children be enough for you?
Overreaction and moral relativism -- the cornerstones of sexual repression.
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quote:Originally posted by Annie: Pornography is evil filth that ruins lives and tears apart families and discussing it with such bravado in a family-friendly environment is direspectful.
Are you speaking of addiction to pornography? Because addiction to anything can ruin families. Can we call everything that has ever torn a family apart evil (and let me stick in imagery of a child crying here to make you feel even worse)? Like say... religion?
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Pornography is evil filth that ruins lives and tears apart families and discussing it with such bravado in a family-friendly environment is direspectful.
Saying that porn is universally harmful is like saying cars are universally harmful. Both can serve a purpose. Both, when misused, can hurt somebody.
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I'm not so sure pornography in moderation has ever brought a family closer together. In that sense it's different than a general activity taken to excess like say watching television.
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quote:I'm not so sure pornography in moderation has ever brought a family closer together.
I know a few couples who would say they're closer as a consequence. I doubt they share it with their children, though.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Many worried people are reconsidering their jobs and pondering new directions. For Mimi Balfour, a Toronto-based television producer and mother of three young children, her new direction involved the production of a softly lit pornographic movie for women.
"When I started to look at what's available in adult content for women, I was shocked at how bad most of it was," says Ms. Balfour (who is using a pseudonym to protect her regular television gig). "It was poorly art directed, poorly shot, it wasn't sexy or intelligent and the guys weren't that attractive." She says there was little middle ground for female viewers --most resembled either the raunchy material made for men or instructional videos. ... Ms. Balfour's family has been supportive. Her husband offered editing notes and her mother helped write the DVD copy. "My children know that Mummy's making a sexy movie," she says. "It's a smart business decision, and it's an imperative product that needs to be out there in the marketplace. I'm proud of it." ...
quote:I'm not so sure pornography in moderation has ever brought a family closer together.
I know a few couples who would say they're closer as a consequence. I doubt they share it with their children, though.
My feelings regarding couples utilizing pornography to enhance their intimacy are somewhat foggy. What is called pornography, to me is a bit too broad. I mean a video dealing with sex instruction is by most standards just as pornographic as "college vixens 8." But I'd say the former could serve some use while the latter is more dubious in value.
Mucus: That's a bit of a strange example as she is states she is motivated by the lack of material out there, but then wishes to make a business of it. She does talk about what is lacking in the industry, but it does not really talk about how pornography has strengthened her marriage.
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posted
Well, strengthening a marriage is a more narrow concept than that of "[bringing] a family closer together" which was what I was originally responding to.
Anyways, she's making money, she's proud of her work, and she shares it with her children and parents (which contribute). I daresay even the first two together are enough to bring a family happiness (as opposed to an otherwise equal family lacking the two).
And in retrospect, the example is interesting in another sense in that she explicitly calls it pornography but its also intended to cover a different ground from instructional videos.
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Annie, I assume that by your post you are referring to a so-called addiction to pornography. I'm curious whether you think pornography itself is an addictive material or something else?
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Mucus: But we still are not sure if it is a net improvement. I mean sure her husband might have "provided edit advice," but perhaps he is agreeing to do it because of the money it might bring in. It's quite possible their sex life is nonexistent and so she has turned to pornography. Maybe he has a pornographic addiction and out of guilt supports his wife's activities.
You are right strengthening a marriage is a bit more narrow of a concept than bringing a family closer together. She reports telling her children that, "Mommy is making a 'sexy' movie" but that does not really tell us much.
I'm more interested in pornography's ability to provide benefits to couples that cannot be exceeded by an alternative approach.
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While I'm not going to go as far as Annie and say that all porn is evil (I do believe that ANY method of trivializing sex is morally wrong - but that's a seperate issue), I do think that your attitude towards it is precisely WHY some people think it is demeaning. I don't think that every male in the world who doesn't enjoy pornography needs to be considered castrated! Maybe there are some males who actually care more about the experience than the image!
Also, I don't think you can relate problems with pornography to problems with barbie dolls. The problems with girls (or boys - but boys are less prone to care) and body image is entirely different than the problems with pornography. While I am not an overly attractive female myself, I have known quite a few who still think that selling little girls on the image of excessively thing wastes with excessively large breasts is problematic.
I personally don't think porn falls in the same category at all. Though the internet has made it somewhat more difficult, it is quite possible to avoid all pornographic images. Thus, the consumption of pornography is entirely voluntary. If you voluntarily choose to consume something, then I have a little less sympathy when the consequences turn out badly. Barbie dolls (and teen models, etc) on the other hand are plastered in almost every public location and media outlet you can think of. While it might be possible to protect your daughters from this imagery by living on a 19th century style commune somewhere, it's hard to do so while living a semi-normal life. Thus Barbie Dolls are MUCH more demeaning to women than pornography is. :-)
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quote:Overreaction and moral relativism -- the cornerstones of sexual repression.
I like how statements like this are allowed to be bandied about unquestioned, yet we demand absolute scientific proof that pornography is bad.
There's been scientific proof. There's been social proof. I'm a woman and I know how it feels to live in a society where I am constantly evaluated on my objective worth by dirty, lecherous men.
There is nothing uplifting or useful about pornography. I'm glad you have anecdotal evidence of people who say it makes them happy - I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined.
I probably shouldn't even keep reading this conversation, it's making me so angry. Sorry - but I'm not holding back what someone needs to say.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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You're just too busy hollering OMG PORN IS EVIL THE EVIDENCE IS ALL AROUND ME to bother to approach it rationally, healthily, and with a smidge of common-sense.
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quote:Originally posted by Annie: There's been scientific proof. There's been social proof. I'm a woman and I know how it feels to live in a society where I am constantly evaluated on my objective worth by dirty, lecherous men.
But do you honestly believe that porn is the reason why men evaluate women that way? Do men in societies were porn is freely available objectify women more? Scientific research does show young men with easy access to porn are less likely to rape women, so that seems like porn makes real flesh and blood women less into objects.
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I'm not going to approach mass-murderers rationally either. The healthy, common-sense thing to do is to stay away from pornography.
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Who's demanding scientific proof?
You're just too busy hollering OMG PORN IS EVIL THE EVIDENCE IS ALL AROUND ME to bother to approach it rationally, healthily, and with a smidge of common-sense.
posted
"I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined."
I'm sure that porn/sexual addiction can be vastly damaging. But freaking out over porn use can also contribute to the damage.
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quote:I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined.
A lot of the ruining is in the context of an environment where porn is viewed as inherently evil. Women kick their husbands out rather than have "that filth" in their house, without considering whether the pornography produces any objective outward harm.
In the end the kids lose their dad and they gain... a lack of something that they were likely never aware of the existence of in the first place.
Yes, men should consider their wive's sensibilities when choosing to engage in such activities but the ripping apart of families is a team effort. The husband has to determine that he's unwilling to give up his habit and the wife has to determine that she's willing to end their relationship over it.
EDIT: Scifi put it much more succinctly.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote: Scientific research does show young men with easy access to porn are less likely to rape women, so that seems like porn makes real flesh and blood women less into objects.
Really? Link? Isn't rape generally recognized as less an issue of sex than of power? Or am I misunderstanding that?
Oh, thanks. I was posting at the same time as you, scholarette.
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quote: A lot of the ruining is in the context of an environment where porn is viewed as inherently evil. Women kick their husbands out rather than have "that filth" in their house, without considering whether the pornography produces any objective outward harm.
*blink* I doubt that this is usually true. I think, more often, the husband (for example) becomes less responsive to his spouse.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: "I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined."
I'm sure that porn/sexual addiction can be vastly damaging. But freaking out over porn use can also contribute to the damage.
Let me just emphasize:
It makes me sad when a marriage falls apart because of porn use. It would be better if the porn user could stop in order to save the marriage. But, in my opinion, it would ALSO be better if the spouse of the porn user could tolerate it instead of ending the marriage over it. Comparisons to mass murder seem to support my strong suspicion that it often gets blown far out of proportion. Annie, you might want to look up a presentation that was given in 2000 or 2001 at BYU called "The problem of pornography." It offers some insight into the social and mental factors that contribute to porn addiction and make it destructive and powerful. (Unfortunately, treating porn use as a hugely shameful thing is one of the contributors.) It is a faith-based presentation, as you might guess from the venue.
Note that I would not argue that someone has to tolerate a habit that steals endless time from the family, or causes financial hardship, or that interferes with normal sex. I'm not saying the spouse should endure humiliation.
But there's such a thing as a "normal" amount of porn use, and whether or not you think it is healthy or morally acceptable, it doesn't have to "ruin" any lives. Of course, if you react to it as something comparable to mass murder, the likelihood of significant fallout might be increased.
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I think in most cases where it's a problem, the husband is just as likely to see it as an evil as the wife is.
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quote:I think, more often, the husband (for example) becomes less responsive to his spouse.
What do you mean by "less responsive"? Do you mean less physically attracted? From the cases I have experience with that's not the case at all. I know of two divorces and one extended separation that were exclusively blamed on porn consumption and none of those involved anything like this. One of those involved a very very close friend and it was heartbreaking to watch what his family went through but there was no point at which he had lost interest in his spouse.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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