posted
Hmmm, the webpage looks a bit too slick. But surprisingly, its owned by TD so it looks legit. I'm curious what you thought about it too.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I'm still processing my feelings on the class.
You’re pumped when you’re there and everything seems to make sense, well the principle of it all at least.
In this market, this scary, shaky market, I don't like leaving my money out there, parked in some losing mutual funds account, to just get slowly, or quickly in some cases, sucked into thin air. We’ve lost a lot of money in the last couple of months. I know that my husband and I have been immobile, not knowing what to do. It's hard to know what your options are if you have no clue about the whole business in the first place. That's me, clueless. I know that we’re getting raped and pillaged.
I know the brokers are doing well, getting nice big fat bonuses, regardless of how much money everyone else is losing. They advise you to just wait, to not sell, meanwhile the bottom drops out. I want more control.
I believe that the information is out there, all of the information that is handed to you at this seminar, for free, if you wish to invest the time to find it. I do, however, like the website format that’s made available to those who chose to take their class, or continue in one of their educational programs. I’m one who will need coaching, and lots of visuals.
I just wondered if anyone else has taken the course and what their thoughts were on it.
I know I should have laid all this out in the first post. I have bad posting etiquette.
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
They talk a lot about Options Trading. I realize the reality of it is risky, but with the market the way it is right now, it's no more risky than just parking your money and watching it disappear.
They own Thinkorswim and give you quite a break on fees.
I was pumped today.
I'm just a little nervous about taking the bull by the horns in this bearish market. I really did learn more terminology in the last two days than I really know how to properly process right now.
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Well, you don't need to worry about it, do you? Because if the principles they taught you during the course are sound, they'll apply regardless if you use their other services. So just don't ever use their services again, and invest intelligently.
Note, however, that options trading is still considerably more risky than just parking your money, even in the current economy.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Note, however, that options trading is still considerably more risky than just parking your money, even in the current economy.
The principles are sound. What they're selling you on is the on-going education.
They admit that you'll walk out of there confused. They throw the whole investment world at you, in different ways, and then offer you the chance to have coaching, classes, etc. to help you along, provide further training. $$$
The two days spent in class was just an intro, we didn't know that going in, of course.
The whole thing with them about options trading, while throwing disclaimers in left and right, is that it is more lucrative than just parking your money, if you know what you're doing, in this market.
There are those who can hear a concept once and grasp the meaning immediately. They can then go on to use that concept to their advantage. In this, I'm not one of them. I need the teaching.
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
If you want to learn how to trade stocks in a mildly profitable way (and options trading can be part of that), read up on techniques at the trader mike blog: http://tradermike.net/
You're never going to become terribly wealthy doing that, but you can earn a reasonable return if you spend full time days trading, by being one of those people who finds opportunities and arbitrages them.
Make sure you can never lose more than a small percentage of what you've invested in any given trade, by putting a stop in. Not, unlikely to lose more than a small percentage. Never lose more than a small percentage, because you have the other side of the position covered.
That's the only way to trade like you need to to make decent money -- with options and leverage. Since you've sized your losses to be at most a percentage of your actual investment, you're somewhat protected. Of course, if you can't pick enough positions that do reasonably well, you'll still lose money, it just won't be unreasonably fast.
If they didn't teach you about stops and R-multiples, the course was probably useless for practical trading, btw.
If you just want return on your money right now, put it in the best six month to one year CD you can find (make sure not to exceed FDIC limits any one bank). Of course, know that the market will go up substantially and abruptly at some point, and you'll lose out on that upswing. Of course, if you're options trading and positioned the wrong way without stops in place, you'll be wiped out when that happens (and possibly then some). Also of course, sometimes the upswing will be false, but you'd still be wiped out, and if you got in, you'd want to ride it out.
Probably the best strategy right now if you're investing for the long term (and I hope you are) is to stick your money in an S&P 500 index fund with the lowest fees, and wait. You'll lose some more money, but when it makes money, you'll be along for the ride. And it will, sometime in the next six months to a year and a half (most likely; if the gov't does something particularly boneheaded I could see it extending up to another year. Either way, still far short of the long term).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Oh, and if you're contemplating paying money for the classes, that's totally worthless. If you have enough drive to learn how to invest, you'll be able to do it on your own. If you don't, then the classes will be worthless.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Warning signs that it's too good to be true:
quote: -You’re pumped when you’re there -The principles are sound. -What they're selling you on is the on-going education. -They admit that you'll walk out of there confused. -The two days spent in class was just an intro, we didn't know that going in, of course.
My gut feeling from the way you're taking about this is that if you sign up to continue you will end up paying the fees and either make a little less money than it's costing you over the long run or lose money slowly enough that you think you'll constantly think you're about to get it and keep trying, or figure that you're losing less than you would have if you'd left it in place so you're coming out ahead, not figuring in the time you're spending on it. And then, like fugu said, the market will turn around abruptly and you'll miss the upside.
Experts are experts for a reason -- they've spent a lot of time learning about what they're doing and then doing it. In the beginning, they're not very good. They become experts by surviving the beginning. I would not try investing by myself based on a two day class and ongoing website and seminar help. I think it's flat-out foolish, unless you can afford to lose a lot of money while you learn what you're doing. If you say you learned more terminology than you can process right now and that you're not someone who picks up on this sort of thing quickly but need the teaching, I would say count the cost of the seminar as a learning experience and cut your losses. Their online tools are not going to be enough to make you a successful investor in any market but one that's soaring.
Sorry to be a downer, and I haven't done any research on the company itself, but this really sounds like an excellent way to lose your shirt.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
This will make me look even more like a huge sucker (read complete idiot), but I'm not done yet.
They have different program levels that they highly suggest you sign up for. Are you sitting down?
PHD - $30,071 - class offer $23,999 (you wouldn't believe how many people signed up for this) Master - $14,901 - class offer $11,999 (or this) Associate - $6,083 - class offer $4,999
The last ten minutes of the class, they asked all those who had signed up, in the many breaks provided for just that, to go to another banquet hall., they had “additional good news” for them. We'd joked at lunch that we were waiting for them to start slashing prices, like the guy who sells the knives and starts at a huge price, but continues to slash the price down to $19.99 (or whatever). The instructor then offered us the Associate price, at half the class offer. So, I'll let you figure out what we did, along with the majority of the folks who were holding back.
I have 7 days to cancel. My husband asked me to devote two days to this, two full days, to see if it would be of any advantage. I can't get over the sick feeling I've acquired over the last 24 hours to pay it that much attention. I know, If I truly listened to my own gut, I'd have my answer. It's just nice to have feedback from others, ya know?
Has anyone ever fell into a situation like this? The people at this class were not idiots, just obviously, like us, completely clueless. I’d like to imagine that more than half of them are kicking themselves right now and seriously considering canceling before their seven day cancellation date.
Oh, did I mention that we only paid $99 for the both of us to attend. I say only because the original work shop cost anywhere from $2,500 - $3,000 and I know from looking around online, that's what some people have actually paid to take this two day course.
I've been considering going back to school. We were justifying the cost of this, thinking it may be just what we might need. I'd get an education, of sorts, and then be able to work from home to supplement our income. *sigh*
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Cancel, and cancel now. It is not an education, it is a list of rules to follow that you can get easily online. Doing successful (by which I mean, moderate normal income) stock day trading requires rigorous use of math, constant processing of information, and a lot of intuition. There's a reason stock day traders rely on patterns in stock prices: because they work. And they work in large part because there's a psychology behind the people in the market. But even though there's a psychology, things are still mostly noise, and only if you have a strong ability to attach to that psychology can you eke out a little bit of value from that noise (essentially, day traders and the like serve as the arbitageurs, and because they're exploiting arbitrage opportunities, make a small bit of money).
But you have to be prepared to lose quite a bit of money. And if by going back to school you mean getting a more advanced or a professional degree of some kind, that will almost certainly give you a much higher return on your money than spending your time learning to day trade, especially via such a class.
Btw, I would recommend always refusing such a class. Every single class where someone is going to tell you how to make money for little effort is a scam. Every single one of them.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Reflect for a moment on the ethics of selling something at one price, then taking all the buyers out of the room and immediately offering the same thing at half the price. Is this the action of someone you would trust to give you advice that is in your best interest? How would you answer that question if you were one of the people who signed up first?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Also, when you call to cancel there will probably be high pressure techniques to try to change your mind.
Repeat this thought to yourself: This is about them wanting to make money. Not about them wanting me to make money.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Oh, the ethics of the whole thing has been bothering me big time. I imagine they did upgrade, somewhat, everyone else's "educational package" in that other room as well. They’d want them to go home with a warm fuzzy, thinking they got more than they actually paid for.
Scott Martin, the instructor kept saying that the main reason he wanted to invest in this education himself was that he was tired of not seeing his little girl every night. He kept mentioning what a motivating factor it was for him to continue the education, so that he'd be able to put her to bed each night.
Well, according to him and my research, he's on the road full-time, handling these seminars. I'm pretty sure his little girl doesn't travel with him.
According to the paperwork I have to mail or deliver a signed and dated copy of the cancellation notice, or send a telegram. I know, I know, this is about them making money. It's amazing how you can hear what you want to hear, even though every instinct is telling you otherwise?
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Btw, I would recommend always refusing such a class. Every single class where someone is going to tell you how to make money for little effort is a scam. Every single one of them.
Bears repeating. There's no free lunch, if the opportunities are indeed the way they describe, why isn't everyone doing it? The course fees are low (compared to a proper education) and you're hardly the first person to discover the program. Find the catch.
I'm just surprised that TD is involved in such business but I guess it must be something they think is worthwhile (for them) in the United States.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Yeah, but TD is amusing in that it was probably the only bank in Canada, probably the biggest bank in North America now that pretty much totally avoided getting scammed into buying American subprime mortgage-backed securities.
There's a bit of curious irony in them subsequently purchasing a company (Jan 2009), accidentally or otherwise, that is run by Americans to essentially scam Americans.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
If you're not interested in day trading (or even if you are interested in day trading with some of your money), may I suggest http://www.bogleheads.org/ as a source for learning about portfolio allocation and other investment strategies?
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Cancel then notify the credit card company that you did if you don't get the refund right away.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
It's not day trading that we were interested in. It was the concept of making our investments work for us in any market, even one that's going sideways or down. They did teach about stop-loss, broken resistance or bouncing support, candlesticks, bollinger bands, fibonacci retracements...they threw a lot at us in those two days. We did learn something.
Thanks for the links, I appreciate them and will look at each one.
I've began working on the notice of cancellation. I'll let you know how well that goes.
I'm canceling the additional training that we signed up for. We've got three months of the web-site access available to us, that we paid for when we signed up for the $99 course. It's very well designed and user friendly. I plan on using it and possibly re-subscribing, if I can't find one as properly equipped for free, or less money elsewhere online.
I need to research that further.
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I can second the bogleheads forum, they (at least their Canadian counterpart) http://www.financialwebring.org/ is pretty interesting reading.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Good luck! And like the others said, I would notify your credit card company as well as following their cancellation process. And if you're mailing, send it registered mail. If you paid with a check, I would seriously consider cancelling the check. If they cash it, it will take you a lot of time and hassle to get a refund.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Ah, call the credit card company. Where's my head today? Thank you for that.
I was given a cortisone shot Monday for a facial rash, I blame that on my not being able to sleep for the last three nights. That and the fact that my brain has been seriously turned into cottage cheese, with the unusual amount of strange terminology and devious sales tactics thrown at it.
I'll be calling the credit card company.
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Don't feel too bad, Tammy. About 15 years ago, my then-spouse and I signed up for one of the companies that sells scholarship info. Realized within a relatively short time that we were not cut out to be scammers.
The fact that these days, as a college financial aid coordinator, I specifically teach people to AVOID such companies is amusingly ironic.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Well, I must say they handled the whole cancellation matter in the most professional way. I called and left word that I wanted to cancel. I then e-mailed Scott the instructor and advised him of the same.
I received the following e-mail from Scott:
Hi Tammy,
Thanks for the kind words. I’m sorry it will not work for you at this time. The Market stops for no one….so jump on board when you are ready. Can you please give me the days/dates and location of which event that you attended? I Taught several classes in xxxxxx and want to make sure that this is taken care of for you……
Thanks, all my best,
Scott
Today I received final confirmation from their cancellation department.
Dear Tammy, Thank you for contacting Investools Student Services. My name is xxxx. This email is to confirm your request for cancellation of the Associates order was received and has been processed. Your credit card will not be charged.
Whew!
You live and you learn, sometimes. Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I suggest keeping an eye on your card though. Just to be sure they don't accidentally (or "accidentally") charge you.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Tammy: The whole thing with them about options trading, while throwing disclaimers in left and right, is that it is more lucrative than just parking your money, if you know what you're doing, in this market.
Translation: Options are extremely high risk, and hence offer high rewards if you are successful. No matter how much you know what you're doing, they're never a sure thing, and the down side risk is equally high or higher (nearly unlimited, in some cases).
My recommendation to anyone who is interested in Options trading is to know exactly how they work, including the potential for loss, before you even think about it.
Don't have rose colored glasses about options. If you invest in a stock and it goes down, unless the company goes under, you still have those shares, and if the company is solid, the price will eventually go back up - you won't lose everything.
If you invest in options and it doesn't go your way, your money's gone.
Yes, you can make a lot of money, but you can also lose a lot.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I really should run a class like this. I'd charge $5,000. The class would be 2 minutes long.
"Hi everybody. By paying $5,000 for this class, you've demonstrated that you don't have the good judgment to take care of your own money.
Put 1/3 of it in the bank, 1/3 in bonds, and 1/3 in a mutual fund and don't touch it. Lesson learned."
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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