posted
In another thread, a poster made the following comment
quote:Rabbit, lay off the ad homimen. You are not a credible source for any kind of judgment and it clouds your rhetoric.
It is also like talking to a bratty middle schooler. I'll debate you only if you can restrain from insulting everyone you disagree with.
Now I have a history with this poster as do many others here that causes me to generally discount her opinion of me, none the less this comment has caused me a bit of introspection.
I think of myself as being clear headed and quite skilled at logic and rhetoric. I've even taught the subjects and have been recognized for my keen insight by a number of my professional colleagues. But that is in a different world. At hatrack, I generally think of my self as above the fray although there are exceptions.
The particular poster I mentioned above does seem to know how to push my buttons and I have stooped on occassion both to attacking her and to goading her -- something I'm not proud of. That was not however what I was doing in the most recent thread.
Any way, the exchange has made me wonder how much my opinion of myself is inflated over reality.
Do other posters find me abrasive, arrogant or prone to launching ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with me?
I'm trying to decide if I need to generally rework my posting style or if I just need to avoid discussions with certain individuals.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Sometimes you ask a question but use a period to end the sentence. It's pretty grating. Ordinarily I wouldn't point this out, but since you asked, there you have it.
Kwea:
I know you didn't ask for critique, but... I am sincerely looking forward to one of your typically insightful posts, only without any emoticons. Stop hiding behind the grin.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Do other posters find me abrasive, arrogant or prone to launching ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with me?
I'm trying to decide if I need to generally rework my posting style or if I just need to avoid discussions with certain individuals.
My honest opinion:
I don't find your posts abrasive per se, but I do find that you have a definite set of beliefs that you defend vigorously. You seldom come across as chatty or nice or friendly, but almost always as incisive and definitive and (often) aggressive. I feel that you are sometimes too assured of your own correctness, and tend to respond to those who disagree with you with contempt.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:That was not however what I was doing in the most recent thread.
Any way, the exchange has made me wonder how much my opinion of myself is inflated over reality.
For what it's worth, I think you've become a lot more brittle over the last couple of years, and considerably less tolerant of disagreement. You're nowhere near the worst of us, mind you, but I've been aware for a while now that if I'm posting to disagree with you, I'm probably going to be indirectly insulted.
I think it's generally better to never consider yourself "above the fray," not least because that's just one very short step from being "above (the) hoi polloi."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
People here criticize me for my posting style, which I'll admit is strongly opinionated. Rabbit is one of the people whose opinionatedness I see as being at the very least on the same level as mine. Paul Goldner and steve are two others.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
The Rabbit, I generally find your posts interesting and informative even when I don't agree with you.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Let's open this discussion up to everyone!
Go ahead. Critique mah postin' style. Or lack thereof.
You post way too much, and way too little. That is to say, a huge number of posts with no substance. Probably your one-liners are intended to zing. In fact they go flrrt, with a weak flabby sound.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Heh, someone with a posting style as opinionated as Lisa?
Yeah right!
What do you think of my posting style? I believe I am absolutely clueless as to what where the fray is, therefore I can't be in it or above it....
Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
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posted
I've never been able to put my finger on why, but even on issues you care about and/or are well-informed about, I don't think your posts are very persuasive for people who don't already agree with you. I'm not certain of that, because I agree with you on many different things in many different areas, but that's my perception.
I don't have any suggestions for you, because I frequently wrestle with the same problem -- the distinction between conveying my ideas effectively and conveying them persuasively.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Asking for a critique of one's posting style in an environment where one's words are the only thing by which a person can be known is essentially asking for a critique of one's self. I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I don't think your posts are abrasive or prone to ad hominem attacks at all. I do think you stick to some of your opinions very strongly, and are unwilling to bend to different assumptions being made by people who are approaching the debate from the other side. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily...
But, I will say that I've found that if a Hatracker sticks firmly to a position on a controversial issue and won't bend on it, it's pretty common to eventually be accused of ad hominems or some other forum crime. It's happened to me, it's happened to posters more civil than me, and it's happened to posters less civil than me. I think the reason is just frustration.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I know you didn't ask for critique, but... I am sincerely looking forward to one of your typically insightful posts, only without any emoticons. Stop hiding behind the grin.
Anyone else?
Don't hold your breath. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Asking for a critique of one's posting style in an environment where one's words are the only thing by which a person can be known is essentially asking for a critique of one's self. I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.
Noemon, you expressed perfectly what I was struggling to find a way to say.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
The Rabbit, you do seem rather opinionated. Usually it seems like people who come across that way don't mind coming across that way. I've always assumed you are aware of this and don't mind it. (Just like T:man doesn't mind coming across as somewhat clueless. )
I haven't noticed any unusual propensity for personal attacks, but if you think your buttons have been pushed on occasion, you should probably expect those occasions to contribute to collective perception of your style. A single post that consists of a personal attack will probably affect your reputation more than a dozen thoughtful, calm posts will. As I said I don't think you're unusually nasty or anything, but when I think about your posting style, as you've invited me to do here, the thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is a recent portion of a kerfluffle in the Sarah Palin thread. I realize you've posted volumes to offset that lapse, but I'm being honest about what comes to mind. It takes an effort to put things in perspective; without that effort the recent spat has an outsized impact on my perceptions.
Generally speaking, I think we simply can't allow our buttons to be pushed with any regularity if we want to be, either in practice or in reputation, "above the fray." Lapses can and do fade from memory, but they have to be rare indeed in order not to color current interactions. Given that sincerity, sarcasm, and humor are all unreliably transmitted, it's near impossible to stay above in reputation.
I think we can all do better. We should practice trying not to give needless offense, trying to fit the most charitable interpretation of others' posts, and retracting our sore spots from public access, at least when doing so doesn't cost us significantly.
That being said, I want to point out that Scott R's posting style is needlessly flashy and indicative of vainglorious delusions. Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.
The "Who is AntiCool and why the crap is he playing these stupid games?" thread ended up being constructive, I think.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
And, Rabbit, I think you post a heck of a recipe, even though you are one of the most intolerant (to gluten) people I know.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: For what it's worth, I think you've become a lot more brittle over the last couple of years, and considerably less tolerant of disagreement. You're nowhere near the worst of us, mind you, but I've been aware for a while now that if I'm posting to disagree with you, I'm probably going to be indirectly insulted.
Thanks Tom. I appreciate the input and this is what I was worried about. In some cases this is because I've had the same discussion with the same people for to many years. On some topics, like climate change, I honestly don't think anyone here has the expertise to debate the issue with me. That may sound arrogant but its true and I have become impatient with those who keep posting the same bad arguments over and over again. I've started largely avoiding those threads, but probably still drop by too often.
Overall, I probably am becoming more brittle lately which is as much about my life as it is about hatrack. I should probably avoid everything but the fluff threads for a while but I rarely enjoy the fluff.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: And, Rabbit, I think you post a heck of a recipe, even though you are one of the most intolerant (to gluten) people I know.
Well gluten is more than deserving of my contempt.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Asking for a critique of one's posting style in an environment where one's words are the only thing by which a person can be known is essentially asking for a critique of one's self. I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.
I think when most people start a thread like this they are hoping it will bring their allies out of the closet and are not expecting any constructive criticism. I considered that before I posted and while I will admit there to some guilt in that respect, I was also genuinely concerned that I might be become to obnoxious and was hoping for some constructive feed back and expecting a few rude comments which gladly hasn't happened yet.
Thanks to those who have accomodated me with some good feed back. I'll try to use the question mark more often if nothing else.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think it's generally better to never consider yourself "above the fray," not least because that's just one very short step from being "above (the) hoi polloi."
Oh well, I definitely consider my self "above the hoi polloi", light years above the hoi polloi. Every now and then I will condescend to get into the fray with the hoi polloi but even then, I'm still thousands of kilometers above them.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Asking for a critique of one's posting style in an environment where one's words are the only thing by which a person can be known is essentially asking for a critique of one's self. I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.
I was also genuinely concerned that I might be become to obnoxious and was hoping for some constructive feed back and expecting a few rude comments which gladly hasn't happened yet.
Fair enough. I hope that the thread is helpful for you.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
This may current new item may explain a great deal
quote: Since cats were removed from Macquarie Island, rabbit numbers have soared, and the animals are now devastating plants. Cats previously kept a check on rabbits but were eradicated because they were also eating seabirds, scientists relate in the Journal of Applied Ecology.
posted
I do find your posting style a bit abrasive sometimes. Whether I find it arrogant generally depends on what subject you are speaking about; sometimes you obviously know way more than me and so it doesn't bother me. It's not arrogance when you flat-out state that you know something, because you do, I suppose. Some times it does come across as pontificating, though. When you seem to make assumptions I don't find valid and think that you know more than others about a subject but don't, that's when I find it arrogant. Happily, at least in the threads that I read, that is not often.
Of course, I'd say we all probably fall into these traps some of the time.
And, in you, it is tempered by a good sense of humor and a generosity of spirit that some here lack.
So I'd say, on the whole, you're not any worse than most of us here, and I include myself in that. We all have our moments of abrasiveness or arrogance, and I'm prone to forgive them since I have them too.
I hope that my post didn't hurt you. I wavered a long time between posting or not posting it. It is only my perception of your posts and should be taken with about 2 cups of salt, of course. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'll try to use the question mark more often if nothing else.
Not to be a dick, but as long as you're brushing up on question marks you might take a quick look at commas as well. Also, 'feedback' is one word.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I've thought very carefully how to say this. I am leaving aside personal issues.
I think that when one is used to getting respect for what they have written when they are the expert and have been careful, it becomes natural to believe that what one writes is worthy of respect by default. I think that sometimes you are not careful when you write and you are not always the expert on the topics you talk about, but you still expect that same kind of treatment you get when you do and when you are.
The solution is to either be as careful with posts as with your professional activities, or else not to expect the same kind of reception to your posts as to your professional writing.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: Do other posters find me abrasive, arrogant or prone to launching ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with me?
I think this is pretty much the basis of the big reality distortion field that can occur in a forum, especially one like this with a lot of regulars. If you just remember that, unlike IRL, you are *only* ever posting in response to something, unless you are posting a thread opener, in which case you are not, but are unlikely to argue any point in any particulars.
Now, the basis of all our interaction is responsive to other posts, on the basis of other posts and the people who make them, in the context of a discussion, and in the greater context of our experience on the forum, and *lastly* our experience in other aspects of our lives. That isn't always true, but it seems to mostly be true. So, the quality of your interactions is double-edged. You will necessarily be more opinionated, more one sided, more set in your opinions than if you were dealing with a real life relationship, because a real life relationship is more dynamic, more based on common experience (because you know each other), and fed by body language and facial expression.
It was something I noticed here that actually changed my outlook in real life interactions, and changed the way I thought of myself in either context. Someone called me arrogant, and I believe ignorant (in the sense of willful ignorance or narrow mindedness). I talked to a friend about it. To my complete surprise, this very close friend said that it was mostly true. W"hy are you still my friend then?" I ask, somewhat embarrassed. She says, "because you really are a good person." She told me that what she had initially perceived as arrogance and superiority has not exactly gone away, but along with it, her experience with me had deepened to the point that she had begun to appreciate other aspects of my personality. My ability to listen, my generosity and kindness, my intense curiosity and my idealistic nature were all things she really liked about me. The arrogance thing didn't factor for her once it was a known facet of my personality- the behavior was still there, but it was "less real," to the point that it wasn't an irritant, it was just the way I talked. She even pointed out that I probably used my initial interactions with people to establish who I actually liked, and who I knew I wouldn't enjoy spending time with. She said that there were people who didn't like me based on things that she knew not to be true- like the idea that I believed I was smarter than they were, when she knew that wasn't the case. This was very interesting, because it occurred to me that the people I actually liked most were the ones who I probably didn't hit it off with right away- and the people I absolutely disliked were the ones who took that initial reaction, and continued to react with that same facet of my personality forever- making me feel like I was stuck in a tango with them that would never transcend into actual mutual respect.
Good or bad, these things seem pretty true to me IRL. Now, on Hatrack, I don't know how these qualities tranfer at all. You are constantly making first impressions, changing impressions, you are dealing with a substantive history where people actually remember the exact things you have said to them, even if you don't remember. You also lack all manner of useful cues to signal a shift in your relationship with someone that *you* perceive, and maybe they don't agree. I suppose I shouldn't sit and spell out all the ways that communicating in written chunks is different from real-time dialogue, but the difference is there, and it's hugely significant- and we are increasingly likely to forget that fact from time to time, the more we post.
There isn't anyone, but *anyone* here that I don't think I could talk and relate to in person, and probably with good results. We are all here because of common interests, after all, so the divide between people is magnified, when in the greater scope of things, we would be classed together by any truly outside observer.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I've thought very carefully how to say this. I am leaving aside personal issues.
Don't. When you said you did not find me "a credible source of judgement on any issue" you made your point. I don't need any more criticism from you.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ...and steve are two others.
This doesn't mean me, does it?
No, definitely not. There's someone whose username is steve (not capitalized, and just steve). He's into raw foods and Dr. Someone or other.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Rabbit, I enjoy your longer posts. You occasionally post one liners saying things like ``this makes no sense." The sentiment is fine, but an additional explanatory sentence would be good so the original poster can clarify as needed.
Posts: 644 | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: It's too bad. I made a good point that might be helpful to you if you'd deign to listen.
I am quoting this high quality post.
quote:
I AM the fray. And you should all be very very afrayed.
Step one Tante, we need to talk.
Where did I go wrong? I lost a friend Somewhere along in the bitter threads and I could have stayed up, posting all night, had I known how to save a quote
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I've thought very carefully how to say this. I am leaving aside personal issues.
Don't. When you said you did not find me "a credible source of judgement on any issue" you made your point. I don't need any more criticism from you.
While the statement about not finding you to be a credible source of judgement is perhaps harsh, if I were told that, I would be looking for more information as to why. It may end up after investigation that the reasons are insufficient, based on fallacy or misunderstanding, or what have you, but still.
To assume that one's assumption of my own lack of credibility is not itself credible seems to be a dangerously divisive path from which there is no reconciliation possible. Why, then, even ask for a critique in the first place?
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I realize you've posted volumes to offset that lapse, but I'm being honest about what comes to mind. It takes an effort to put things in perspective; without that effort the recent spat has an outsized impact on my perceptions. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
