posted
So, Enig and I went to a preview showing of The Dark Knight tonight. I mean it with the spoilers, all you poor souls who have to wait until Friday should run away right now, because you really do not want this movie spoiled.
There's just so much to say, but most of it boils down to the fact that this movie is incredible. Even knowing going in that it was going to be dark, and being nervous about the possibility that it might be too dark for me, didn't prepare me for how dark it really was. But it was so incredibly well done, that even though I hid behind my hands at least once and was scrunched up in my seat wringing my hands several times, it was not too dark for me. It was perfect.
But that could all go in the non-spoiler thread, neh? I can't boil it down to just best lines and favorite parts, because I'd be quoting half the movie. One of the things I found myself thinking about on the drive home, though, was the batman wanna-bes in the beginning of the movie. They, combined with the ferry passengers at the end, really drove in that the Joker was wrong, about these people will start eating each other if you take away their rules and give them a little push.
In the show don't tell theory of storytelling, Gordan, Batman/Wayne, and Alfred were telling us that there was a sea change going on in Gotham, and that the people were ready for it. The pseudo-bats showed us. After all, if you wanted to make a difference in your city, were willing to put your life on the line, and weren't a billionaire with a research and development genius at your disposal, how would you go about it? With hockey pads and guns? Batman shows disdain for their methods, but the only difference between them and him is a hell of a lot of money. They're probably even braver and crazier than he is, going up against criminals without titanium/Kevlar body armor.
And the prisoners! You knew something was going to happen with the huge dude, but what actually did completely surprised me. When he says he's going to do what the warden should have done ten minutes ago and the warden kinda crumples and gives it to him, the look of disgust on the prisoner's face as he throws the detonator out the window! It was just beautifully done. I didn't think the end game on the other boat was as powerful, but I did love the moment when the sailor pointed out that they were still alive. I can't imagine that taking some of the wind out of the sails of people who were telling themselves that they deserved to live more than the prisoners, because they were better people.
There were so many things they did right. The Joker was 100% right, and I'll leave most of that commentary to Enig. I need to get to bed sometime, after all. But I will say that I haven't always been crazy about the portrayal of Bruce Wayne. I think the playboy bits are frequently too over the top, and they were here too. Even with Rachel knowing it was an act and why, it was hard for me to believe she'd put up with him being such a cad. But there were a couple of Bruce Wayne parts that were awesome, most notably for me when he gets out of the car after driving it between the pickup and the police SUV. Obviously Christian Bale is a great actor, but I was immersed enough int he movie to honestly be surprised at what a good actor Bruce Wayne was. Noble? Trying to make the light? Do you think I should go to a hospital? Wow. And that beautiful, beautiful car. I adored how in the credits it said "Mr. Wayne's car provided by. . ." Very slick. And while it's not something Bruce Wayne did, I thought the blackmail attempt by the accountant really helped build our perception of the character. "You think your client is a billionaire playboy who goes around as a masked vigilante at night beating up people with his bare fists and your reaction is to try to blackmail him?" That made me think more about Bruce Wayne as a person rather than a cover more than I think anything else in the current two movies have.
Finally, for real this time, I do very much hope that Heath Ledger gets an Academy Award for this movie. His portrayal was brilliant, and as I am a selfish movie goer, it breaks my heart that we won't get to see him again and again, kicking drivers out of semis, impaling people on pencils, telling stories about his scars, and having fun playing games with his favorite nemesis. He made a joyful, terrifying, sweet, incredible psychopath, and while I'm sure his family mourns the loss of the man they knew, I can only mourn the fact that he will not keep smiling.
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posted
Okay, I can't leave it at that. There was a continuity error that bugged me, and a set up that I kept waiting for them to come back to and they never did.
The continuity error: The mobster that Batman drops from the building, a few stories up so that he'll survive. You see his ankles break. A couple scenes later, he shows up to tip off Gordan about where the Joker will be that afternoon. I see no casts or crutches. Also, the police don't rush off to the harbor. We do, to see the money burning, and it's a nice segue. But it seems like the police didn't do anything with the tip off.
The set up: When Rachel and Dent were held hostage, and the Joker gave Batman the two addresses. Gordan asked which he was going to, and he said Rachel. I thought he said Rachel, anyway. Maybe he said you get Rachel? I don't know. Anyway, I thought Batman was going to get Rachel, and the Joker switched the addresses, as a, um, joke. If that's the case, why didn't anyone tell Dent? When he was going on about how they didn't save Rachel, why didn't they tell him they were trying to, and it was the Joker's lie that made it so that Batman got to him instead? or at least mention it amongst themselves. . . I felt that piece needed resolution.
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posted
It occured to me that if we'd really wanted to be true to the spirit of the movie we'd have put nothing particularly revealling in this thread and all the spoilers in the other one.
I guess the biggest thing I wanted to share which really is one heck of a spoiler, is the crucial Heath Ledger bit after the credits. It's a really amazing interview with Heath about what he wanted to bring to the character of the Joker and how utterly he got into it, even contributing ideas for key plot twists - like how he explains that it was his idea, not Nolan's, for him to fake his own death a few months back so he could screw with people's heads just like the Joker does and then pull off the big surprise coming back (just like the trick Jim Gordon does) and reveal that he's signed on for the next three Batman films. That was truly brilliant!
posted
I did want to yell "Idiots! Sit back down!" to all the people getting up and leaving before the credits. I mean, really. Who wouldn't expect a stinger at the end of Batman?
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posted
Wow. Just saw it. Wow. That was ... just a different class of movie. I can't even begin ... I'm too tired and have work tomorrow. But I'm blown away.
ElJay: With the mobster, in one of the last scenes you seem him get into his car with a cane or something. I don't remember the scene with Gordon. Why they didn't rush the harbor when the money was burning is (I'm pretty sure) because they wanted everyone available to get people out of the hospitals. As for the Rachel/Dent switch, I definitely heard Batman say that he was going for Rachel, and then I think he yelled "No!" when he saw he actually got Harvey. I think there were several allusions here and there to the switch, but never anything specific. I was confused about that as well.
I can't leave this thread without at least saying one specific thing I thought was brilliant: The entire scene with the Joker in the hospital turning Dent into Two-Face. I mean ... that was just ridiculous. Brilliant brilliant acting and writing. Laughing at the Joker wearing a wig, scratching your head at his logic, feeling your stomach curl when Dent/Two Face flipped the coin ... Ah. I fear to think what dreams I will have tonight.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Batman shows disdain for their methods, but the only difference between them and him is a hell of a lot of money. They're probably even braver and crazier than he is, going up against criminals without titanium/Kevlar body armor.
Actually, I think that the years of dedication and training is the real difference. Bruce Wayne would still be a better Batman than any of them if he did it in his underwear armed with a spoon! picking up a gun and putting on hockey pads doesn't make them anything but stupid and impressionable.
Anyway, some random thoughts immediately after seeing it...
- The Scarecrow cameo was a nice touch. I had no idea he would appear in this one. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it wasn't Cillian Murphy under the mask though. - Speaking of that bit, all the Batman copycats made the sequence a bit confusing at times. - And speaking of the copycats, what a wonderful idea! Nolan continues to bring realism to the super hero genre. I'm pretty certain that that's exactly what would happen if Batman was real; a bunch of misguided but well-meaning saps would think that they could be imitate him. Nevermind the lack of high tech equipment and years of training. - As much as I enjoyed it (and I did enjoy it, by the way) that movie felt long. Granted, the discomfort of being just 4 rows back from the screen no doubt made me feel the length more. - Much has been said about the darkness and intensity of TDK, and thus I thought I went into it knowing what to expect. I didn't. There's hardly a minute of that movie when something intense isn't happening. One second the Joker's robbing a bank, then threatening to (and for the most part succeeding at) killing the Mayor, the commissioner, Harvey Dent, etc., then he's blowing up a hospital, then he's threatening to blow up a ferry, then after the last Joker related climax there's the showdown with Two-face. I don't know that this is a bad thing necessarily, but it's a lot to take in. - Rachel's death seemed sudden, and the emotional effect was somewhat lost among all the other stuff that was happening. - Speaking of deaths, they totally had me going with Jim Gordon's death. I know, I shouldn't have fell for it, but I did. - Two-face's appearance: Well done. Funny enough, there was an image released on youtube about a month back which everyone called a fake. I just looked it up. It's actually the real thing. - The ferry scenario: I like the bit with the big scary convict doing the noble thing, but I'm not sure why his buddies didn't tear him apart for it. You can't expect me to believe that more than a few of these dangerous criminals were willing to sacrifice themselves to save others. In fact, I think the whole thing was touching but unrealistic. In real life it's just a matter of which ferry would have gone first. I mean, a lot of the innocent people had their children with them. I don't think that very many people would let their children die rather than kill a boat load of convicts. However, I have a strong suspicion that each detonator was rigged to blow up its own boat. I guess we'll never know though. - The ending was depressing, but powerful. The contrast between a white knight and a dark knight throughout the film really paid off in the end, but how can they leave it at that? Who am I kidding? We know there'll be another sequel.
That's all that comes to mind for now.
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quote: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it wasn't Cillian Murphy under the mask though.
That's a big limb. They show his face. He ends up tied up with the other crooks and shipped back to Arkham.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:The ferry scenario: I like the bit with the big scary convict doing the noble thing, but I'm not sure why his buddies didn't tear him apart for it. You can't expect me to believe that more than a few of these dangerous criminals were willing to sacrifice themselves to save others. In fact, I think the whole thing was touching but unrealistic. In real life it's just a matter of which ferry would have gone first. I mean, a lot of the innocent people had their children with them. I don't think that very many people would let their children die rather than kill a boat load of convicts. However, I have a strong suspicion that each detonator was rigged to blow up its own boat. I guess we'll never know though.
I had the same sneaky suspicion. And I agree that it was unrealistic. Talking about the movie after, we all agreed that this scene seemed like something out of the "Saw" franchise.
On the whole, I thought the movie was incredible. It did seem alittle long and and could have done with maybe one less ending. There were quite a few climactic movie-ending moments but it just kept on rolling.
I've also decided that I react to the Joker much in the same way that I react to dead-baby jokes. I laugh but then I feel guilty and dirty. Its amazing how much you love and hate him.
I also feel sorry for all the little kids who have parents who will take them to see this. I had my hands over my eyes on several occasions.
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But... I didn't wait until after the credits. Was that thing about Heath Ledger a lie?! That's too cruel a thing to say, and you know it. If it's a lie... well.
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- The Scarecrow cameo was a nice touch. I had no idea he would appear in this one. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it wasn't Cillian Murphy under the mask though.
- Two-face's appearance: Well done. Funny enough, there was an image released on youtube about a month back which everyone called a fake. I just looked it up. It's actually the real thing.
It was Cillian.
When I posted the image, nearly everyone replied that they -knew- it was a fan-made fake. Heh.
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quote:Actually, I think that the years of dedication and training is the real difference.
Which also boils down to . . . money. I know Bruce Wayne wasn't using his money in the years he was off training, but knowing it's there to fall back on makes it a lot easier to throw everything away, ya know?
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But... I didn't wait until after the credits. Was that thing about Heath Ledger a lie?! That's too cruel a thing to say, and you know it. If it's a lie... well.
Was what thing about Heath Ledger a lie?
There was a dedication to him added to the credits. That was meant to show respect. What struck you as a cruel thing to say?
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Puffy, I think he's talking about this post:
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: It occured to me that if we'd really wanted to be true to the spirit of the movie we'd have put nothing particularly revealling in this thread and all the spoilers in the other one.
I guess the biggest thing I wanted to share which really is one heck of a spoiler, is the crucial Heath Ledger bit after the credits. It's a really amazing interview with Heath about what he wanted to bring to the character of the Joker and how utterly he got into it, even contributing ideas for key plot twists - like how he explains that it was his idea, not Nolan's, for him to fake his own death a few months back so he could screw with people's heads just like the Joker does and then pull off the big surprise coming back (just like the trick Jim Gordon does) and reveal that he's signed on for the next three Batman films. That was truly brilliant!
posted
It was pretty well done by Enig. When I read "the crucial Heath Ledger bit after the credits" my heart jumped a bit, because I stayed after the credits and was about to be pissed that I didn't see it. I honestly thought they would've had more than just the shared dedication. Especially if it's at all true that Ledger immersion in the character led to depression or whatever. And after seeing it, I could see that being possible.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
It felt closer to Heat than a comic book movie. I think the Departed was closer to a comic book movie than TDK. Ledger was fantastic as the Joker. And the Joker was a compelling character, but Batman was/is too emotionally detached for me to care. I wish he were more sensitive or sensual. I could have used a scene with him training and maybe throwing up at the end or appreciating art or caring about a novel, or lusting after a doughnut, or even enjoying sex, or caring about something other than his abstract fascination with Rachel Dawes(Gyllenhaal is charming, though.) The guy was an alien. I know the emotional detachment is part of what it is to be Batman, but I don't want to watch a movie about an alien. Kind of a neat distinction between guardian and hero, though.
There are good things about the movie. The message that one cannot anticipate political action. Wayne wanted to serve as beckon of strength and hope, and in doing so, he inspired Harvey Dent, dangerously hapless Batman imitators, and drew the Joker to himself. The mob bosses let the Joker go wild, and after that, they couldn't control or predict his next action. I actually think that's the take home message of good drama.
The radical unpredictability of the Joker was what mattered and drove the movie, I think. Even with the dilemma on the boat, my first thought was, "How do you know the Joker is telling the truth about what detonates what?"
I was a little bit curious about the distinction between masked vigilantes and open, court-trying DAs, but I think the issues were muddled. I think the problem was of all five of the characters, Harvey Dent, Joker, Dawes, Gordon and Batman, the Batman was the one whose actions were least interesting. They also needed another woman. I don't know how or why, but if Harvey Dent were changed into a woman or if the judge had had a bigger role, I think the entire drama would have better.
quote: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it wasn't Cillian Murphy under the mask though.
That's a big limb. They show his face. He ends up tied up with the other crooks and shipped back to Arkham.
Oh, I must have missed that somehow. I just assumed that since his face was covered (almost) the whole time and it was such a small part they could have gotten anyone to do it.
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quote:The radical unpredictability of the Joker was what mattered and drove the movie, I think. Even with the dilemma on the boat, my first thought was, "How do you know the Joker is telling the truth about what detonates what?"
Yep. I was fully expecting the civilians to hit their detonator first and blow up their own boat.
posted
Changing Harvey Dent into a woman would not have made the character more interesting. It would have been a change merely for the sake of change.
Personally, I'm rooting for Selina Kyle or Talia Al Ghul for the sequel.
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quote:They, combined with the ferry passengers at the end, really drove in that the Joker was wrong, about these people will start eating each other if you take away their rules and give them a little push.
I think it was a clever bit of staging the way the choice between prisoners killing bystanders and bystanders killing prisoners was arranged. Had it simply been a matter of mob rule, i.e. there wasn't iron-clad 'you'll be killed with a shotgun if you try to take the switch' control exerted, I never would've bought it.
However, because it had to come down to one individual asking for it and then going through with becoming a mass murderer at the whim of a madman...that I could buy, though it was a stretch. Strangely I bought it from the prisoner more than the guy who was willing 'to get my hands dirty'. Wasn't that DeVo (sp?) from the movie Friday?
Hell, maybe it says something about me for good or bad that I can identify with the (presumably nasty) convict willing to die rather than submit to the Joker in that respect (and become a mass-murderer in the process) than I would be a stereotypical innocent bystander permitting a bunch of nasty convicts to kill all of them. But again, in this scene, it worked for me.
quote:Batman shows disdain for their methods, but the only difference between them and him is a hell of a lot of money.
Well, not really. That's a huge difference, of course, but the bigger difference is that Batman doesn't kill. Though an excellent case can be made that it's his money and perhaps more importantly the time that money provides for training that permits him to keep that ideal.
quote: There were so many things they did right. The Joker was 100% right, and I'll leave most of that commentary to Enig. I need to get to bed sometime, after all. But I will say that I haven't always been crazy about the portrayal of Bruce Wayne. I think the playboy bits are frequently too over the top, and they were here too. Even with Rachel knowing it was an act and why, it was hard for me to believe she'd put up with him being such a cad.
Heh, in many ways she didn't put up with it. Went from romantic-love for him to 'I'm-your-friend' love for him, after all. Which though not inferior in general is, in this case I think, a step down in the affection department.
The scene with the car and the 'making the light' was indeed awesome:)
quote: Finally, for real this time, I do very much hope that Heath Ledger gets an Academy Award for this movie. His portrayal was brilliant, and as I am a selfish movie goer, it breaks my heart that we won't get to see him again and again, kicking drivers out of semis, impaling people on pencils, telling stories about his scars, and having fun playing games with his favorite nemesis. He made a joyful, terrifying, sweet, incredible psychopath, and while I'm sure his family mourns the loss of the man they knew, I can only mourn the fact that he will not keep smiling.
Very well put indeed. Loved him in Four Feathers(that one especially), Patriot, and Brothers Grimm as well, the only films of his I've seen. I definitely think his performance was Oscar-worthy at the least. I can't really imagine someone surpassing that performance-certainly not Jack as Joker in Burton's film, for that matter.
quote: The continuity error: The mobster that Batman drops from the building, a few stories up so that he'll survive. You see his ankles break. A couple scenes later, he shows up to tip off Gordan about where the Joker will be that afternoon. I see no casts or crutches. Also, the police don't rush off to the harbor. We do, to see the money burning, and it's a nice segue. But it seems like the police didn't do anything with the tip off.
I noticed the ankle thing too (though Maroni did have a cane), but it wasn't entirely clear how much time had passed. Not enough though, I think. As for the money, it was torched within the hold of a ship at night.
One noteworthy thing for me about the movie was that, despite staying within its PG-13 rating, the content in what happens to the characters involved...*shudder*...much darker and more unpleasant than I would've associated with a PG-13 film. Very artfully done.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I saw the midnight showing and it was fantastic. The Joker conveyed an air of complete insanity and evil that I have never seen in any other film.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: It occured to me that if we'd really wanted to be true to the spirit of the movie we'd have put nothing particularly revealling in this thread and all the spoilers in the other one.
I guess the biggest thing I wanted to share which really is one heck of a spoiler, is the crucial Heath Ledger bit after the credits. It's a really amazing interview with Heath about what he wanted to bring to the character of the Joker and how utterly he got into it, even contributing ideas for key plot twists - like how he explains that it was his idea, not Nolan's, for him to fake his own death a few months back so he could screw with people's heads just like the Joker does and then pull off the big surprise coming back (just like the trick Jim Gordon does) and reveal that he's signed on for the next three Batman films. That was truly brilliant!
posted
Excellent. This is the first scary Joker to appear on screen, big or small.
I think it also demonstrates why DC's making a definitive backstory for the Joker was dumb. He's much scarier giving different answers to where he got his scars and the audience having no idea which, if any, is true.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:I wasn't aware that DC ever made a definitive backstory.
There have been multiple backstories given for Joker, though I'm not sure if the Joker currently in Batman runnings has one. I like either not having one, or having multiple different possibilities-some or all of which are likely to be lies. After all, why would Joker tell?
Having Joker be the one who murdered the Waynes is especially dumb, though I thought it worked in Batman.
This Joker was much scarier than any of the other Batman movie villains we've seen.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Put me in the camp who believes that the Joker's origin doesn't matter. I like the multiple origins. It's not like he has an army of followers. There isn't a Joker epidemic to be stopped. What matters is that he is free and dangerous. You can't trace the trajectory of his wants or aims; you can't anticipate his goals. There isn't a need to try. You just have to deal with the fact of him.
I guess in a vague sense, he wants to bring out the worst in people and break people, but short of that, I like that his situation doesn't admit a linear progression.
Edit:
And how cool was it to depict the Prisoner's Dilemma, with prisoners, but not in the usual way.
quote:The radical unpredictability of the Joker was what mattered and drove the movie, I think. Even with the dilemma on the boat, my first thought was, "How do you know the Joker is telling the truth about what detonates what?"
Yep. I was fully expecting the civilians to hit their detonator first and blow up their own boat.
I was expecting each detonator to blow up both boats.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I just saw it, and I can't really think straight. Wow. Just wow. I was talking to my friends about it, and the best comparison I have is being in a boxing match and receiving body-blow after body-blow.
I echo everyone else's sentiments, but the final scene of the movie, for me, was the most poignant and nearly made me cry. Batman declaring that he is not the hero and that Harvey Dent had to be the hero for the city was simply painful to watch, and when he began to run from the police, knowing that he would be hunted down like the criminals he fights against, I simply wished for five minutes. After basically two hours of torture for Bruce Wayne, he continued to fight, continued to give Gotham what it needs even at the cost of himself, and in that moment, I just wanted five minutes for him to breathe. I wanted peace for him beyond anything else. Just five minutes of peace after having saved Gotham is all I wanted, and yet, neither he nor I could have them.
Simply a great movie. Wow is all I can say. Cheers all.
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I don't know if it's been mentioned, I don't have time to read all the posts right now (I will though), but I was completely in disbelief when joker took out the helicopter and made it hit the SWAT van, it was so improbable that it didn't seem like it would fit in with the Joker's overall plan.
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quote:The radical unpredictability of the Joker was what mattered and drove the movie, I think. Even with the dilemma on the boat, my first thought was, "How do you know the Joker is telling the truth about what detonates what?"
Yep. I was fully expecting the civilians to hit their detonator first and blow up their own boat.
I was expecting each detonator to blow up both boats.
Somehow I think that the Joker would have been more amused if only the ones who proved his point by trying to blow up the others got killed. Everyone dying seems less funny. Or maybe that's just me.
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Does the Joker ever break his word? He says that trying to get out of Gotham by the tunnels or roads would be a bad idea (which is obviously the set up for his ferry stunt,) but we don't know that he hasn't booby trapped the other ways out of Gotham as well. I don't know what to believe about the detonators (the "blowing up your own boat" idea does have a certain appeal, especially given the Joker's sense of humor). I do like the scene with the convict, though, and I can even believe it. Some people do find their conscience and accept responsibility for their past actions in jail. And there would be no point in attacking him after the deed was done. The grimmer point in the ferry scene is about the willingness of people- even people who are normally in authority themselves- to turn responsibility for "necessary evils" over to others.
I'm just as glad that Joker wasn't more "sensual", especially if they ever decide to introduce Harley Quinn. The completely unrequited nature of her feelings for Joker give her character its poignance. Though of course figuring out who could possibly replace Ledger after this performance is a whole other question.
Rachel's death took me by surpsise. It was a fairly bold choice, and one I didn't expect. (And, yes, I heard that Batman was going after Rachel as well...)
It bothered me a bit that they kind of quietly forgot (perhaps intentionally) that the accountant was on top of that pile of bills that Joker set on fire.
It also occurred to me that (Ramirez?), the cop Two-Face allows to live, must know that the story Wayne and Gordon put forward about Dent is a lie. I don't know if this is a loose end or an intentional choice to allow for Batman's future redemption.
A good movie. They definitely made some brave and uncompromising choices. It's going to be very hard for a third movie to measure up... And, frankly, I don't know that they've left themselves in the best place for a sequel, at least from a conventional standpoint. We shall see.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I don't know if it's been mentioned, I don't have time to read all the posts right now (I will though), but I was completely in disbelief when joker took out the helicopter and made it hit the SWAT van, it was so improbable that it didn't seem like it would fit in with the Joker's overall plan.[
Really? Because it wasn't as if there were many places for the wreck to go besides down to the street...where the police vehicles were driving. Wasn't too improbable that it would happen. But who said that it was part of the plan? He had other ways to take out that other SWAT van, I'm sure.
quote: Does the Joker ever break his word? He says that trying to get out of Gotham by the tunnels or roads would be a bad idea (which is obviously the set up for his ferry stunt,) but we don't know that he hasn't booby trapped the other ways out of Gotham as well.
Does the Joker ever lie? Of course. He lied to Batman about which address had which captive, and he lied to Dent about the whole mutilation and murder being 'nothing personal' (it was a part of his plan all along).
quote:It also occurred to me that (Ramirez?), the cop Two-Face allows to live, must know that the story Wayne and Gordon put forward about Dent is a lie. I don't know if this is a loose end or an intentional choice to allow for Batman's future redemption.
Actually, I think that was among the most poignant demonstrations of Two Face's illness, that he would let her live at the flip of a coin. Ramirez was possibly the worst traitor in the entire film: she didn't say that the mob was threatening her mother, just that they were paying her so she could afford medical treatment.
And for that she helped turn over Dent and Dawes for torture and murder.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: It occured to me that if we'd really wanted to be true to the spirit of the movie we'd have put nothing particularly revealling in this thread and all the spoilers in the other one.
I guess the biggest thing I wanted to share which really is one heck of a spoiler, is the crucial Heath Ledger bit after the credits. It's a really amazing interview with Heath about what he wanted to bring to the character of the Joker and how utterly he got into it, even contributing ideas for key plot twists - like how he explains that it was his idea, not Nolan's, for him to fake his own death a few months back so he could screw with people's heads just like the Joker does and then pull off the big surprise coming back (just like the trick Jim Gordon does) and reveal that he's signed on for the next three Batman films. That was truly brilliant!
--Enigmatic
I stayed until the end and there was nothing. Did it come a minute or so after the final PG-13 rating screen?
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: It occured to me that if we'd really wanted to be true to the spirit of the movie we'd have put nothing particularly revealling in this thread and all the spoilers in the other one.
I guess the biggest thing I wanted to share which really is one heck of a spoiler, is the crucial Heath Ledger bit after the credits. It's a really amazing interview with Heath about what he wanted to bring to the character of the Joker and how utterly he got into it, even contributing ideas for key plot twists - like how he explains that it was his idea, not Nolan's, for him to fake his own death a few months back so he could screw with people's heads just like the Joker does and then pull off the big surprise coming back (just like the trick Jim Gordon does) and reveal that he's signed on for the next three Batman films. That was truly brilliant!
--Enigmatic
I stayed until the end and there was nothing. Did it come a minute or so after the final PG-13 rating screen?
No, Enigmatic is just a liar.
Posts: 2489 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:In real life it's just a matter of which ferry would have gone first. I mean, a lot of the innocent people had their children with them. I don't think that very many people would let their children die rather than kill a boat load of convicts.
The ferry dilemma was probably my favorite part of the movie and I think I can buy it as realistic. When given anonymity, the innocent people voted 3 to 1 to kill the prisoners. But when the authority on the boat falters in executing the popular opinion, somebody else would have to taken it upon themselves to be personally responsible for pressing the button and having everybody else know that they pushed the button. I'm sure that there are many people in the world that could do it, but I think the majority likely would not, and I can buy that nobody on that boat was capable of it.
While the prisoner boat easily could have gone a different way, I don't have a problem accepting the way it happened.
I really enjoyed the film.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Don't get me wrong, the ferry scenario didn't detract from my enjoyment of the film. I just don't think that it would have played out like that in real life. But the fact that this is a comic book movie and that's what jumped out at me for lack of realism really says something.
quote:It also occurred to me that (Ramirez?), the cop Two-Face allows to live, must know that the story Wayne and Gordon put forward about Dent is a lie. I don't know if this is a loose end or an intentional choice to allow for Batman's future redemption.
There's no doubt going to be a few cops who figure out that something's fishy, but there's no reason to blab about it. All that matters is that the general public doesn't know the truth.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
The thing that I wondered about the "Dent was pure and good, Batman killed the cops" ending is why the blame really had to go to Batman, in the midst of all that chaos. The Joker was very publically killing people all over and had plenty of henchmen at that point, so if you're going to cover up for Two-Face why not just blame the extra deaths on the Joker? It's at least as plausible as saying Batman did it.
Except that it doesn't set up as tragic of an ending for Batman that way, of course.
posted
The way I figure the ferry scenario is that in real life it would be a toss-up between whether someone got the trigger and threw it out the window or got the trigger and turned the key (I liked that it was a key and not a button so as to prevent accidents). I personally would be gunning for control over the trigger to throw it out the window. One of my friends I saw the movie with said he would be the one to turn the key. I figure in a group of people (families or convicts) there are a number of people like and and like my friend, so it's just a matter of who's assertive first. I think the most unrealistic thing was that it took so long for there to be resolution. I guess 15 minutes isn't that long, but it seems a stretch. I'd say it'd be closer to 5 minutes before there was resolution. But that's just a guess.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: The thing that I wondered about the "Dent was pure and good, Batman killed the cops" ending is why the blame really had to go to Batman, in the midst of all that chaos. The Joker was very publically killing people all over and had plenty of henchmen at that point, so if you're going to cover up for Two-Face why not just blame the extra deaths on the Joker? It's at least as plausible as saying Batman did it.
Except that it doesn't set up as tragic of an ending for Batman that way, of course.
--Enigmatic
The story has the odd side-benefit of helping Batman with the growing understanding among the criminal underworld that he doesn't kill people.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Well, the cops were already on the scene when Gordon showed up, and they knew that Batman was already there. Someone that was known to be at the scene had to have killed Dent, and it wasn't going to be Gordon.
The whole scene feels a bit rushed now that I'm remembering it; didn't it boil down to Batman saying that they could blame Dent's death (as well as the ones that Dent perpetrated) on him?
Posts: 753 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: I personally would be gunning for control over the trigger to throw it out the window. One of my friends I saw the movie with said he would be the one to turn the key.
Just wondering: would taking it upon yourself to presumably doom at least one boat load of people against the wishes of the majority not have weighed heavily on your conscience?
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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my favorite line "How about a magic trick, I'll make this pencil dissapear hoo ho hee hee ho haha ha ho."![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I didn't wait till after the credits.
