posted
Now I can understand that it probably costs quite the penny to find good voice actors in different languages but is it unreasonable to wish that if an Anime or a movie takes place in some foreign country thats say not Japan that people should speak the native language and have subtitles in whatever is appropriate? There are times where this doesn't bother me because it makes perfect sense, take Ruruni Kenshin in the episode where they had a Dutch Ambassador speaking Japanese, he was the ambassador to Japan this is reasonable I don't know if he spoke it perfectly or had a Dutch accent but that doesn't really matter to me.
But there are other times like in Gundam where everyone everywhere speaks Japanese with only the occasional english or german word for emphasis and this annoys me as its hard to swallow, it doesn't prevent me from enjoying the show/movie/anime when it happens but it's always something that makes me think "hmm, shouldn't they be speaking Russian?"
To me its like one of those nerd moments it wouldn't really make what I'm watching "better" its just something me and my linguist-wannabe facet of my personality would find "cool" and my well read self would find "interesting".
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Yes, it is too much to ask. Japanese voice actors don't usually speak English fluently. If they do, they don't speak English well. They do not sound like an English speaking person. They sound like a Japanese person speaking English.
Never mind about other languages.
Posts: 339 | Registered: Apr 2008
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I don't think it is necessarily too much to ask.
I've seen a fair number of Chinese/Hong Kong movies where they simply hired Japanese, European, or American actors as required. I actually have an amusing book on the industry, with small articles on a number of white actors that made a good living in Hong Kong, being hired to play random ethnic villains or random ethnic love interests.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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If the original poster brought up the fact that in Shanghai Knights, two people, father and daughter, carried out a discussion in English, even the father's dying words to his daughter were in English, yes, I would agree, that this is disconcerting, never mind the fact that these two actors are perfectly capable of speaking in Mandarin.
Since, however, his examples were limited to Japanese animation, I limited my response as such. It is simply too much to expect Japanese studios to give this issue any sort of consideration, especially since most of these shows are created with a Japanese audience in mind.
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Japanese has English loan words in it. Or words that have been stolen that they have no intention of getting back or prouncing it American style.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by manji: ... It is simply too much to expect Japanese studios to give this issue any sort of consideration, especially since most of these shows are created with a Japanese audience in mind.
*shrug* The majority of Chinese and Hong Kong movies are also produced for local audiences and have a very limited export market, probably not too different from that of anime actually.
However, they have given the issue consideration.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm just saying you can't expect Japanese studios to do anything about it. Because they won't. You can try holding them to a higher standard, but you'll be left sorely disappointed.
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My father, living in the United States for nearly thirty years, speaks English fluently. However, he does not speak English as a native speaker would.
Posts: 339 | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by manji: ... You can try holding them to a higher standard, but you'll be left sorely disappointed.
I do not see why I would be disappointed.
If they in fact fail my standards, I don't buy/watch their product. Thats why they are, well, standards.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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But if their market doesn't care and there are plenty of people purchasing videos and other products, then why should they change their habits?
I also find the language thing annoying and applaud creators (no matter what country they're from) that go out of their way to be authentic, but its not a deal-breaker for me when it comes to enjoying my television shows or movies.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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But if their market doesn't care and there are plenty of people purchasing videos and other products, then why should they change their habits?
I also find the language thing annoying and applaud creators (no matter what country they're from) that go out of their way to be authentic, but its not a deal-breaker for me when it comes to enjoying my television shows or movies.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Bingo, exactly as I was trying to put it, using Japanese films/animation as an example it is not a deal breaker or preventing me from enjoying what I am watching if they're not authentically speaking the correct language, it is a "this would be a cool and immersive thing to have" immersion can save the life of a good show and lack of immersion can be a bullet between the eyes.
To repeat I used Japanese animation as an example, and tried to broaden the subject matter to any film/tv show/ etc that had people speaking a certain language in a non realistic fashion say English with Russian accents on certain Soviet/Russian submarines.
To me even if a show was terrible if they went to the effort to be authentic I would applaud them for immersion and watch just for the sake of being immersed. While a good show even if it wasn't authentic I'ld watch if it was still "enjoyable" to watch.
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: But if their market doesn't care ...
Apparently, their market does apparently care. Blayne is watching anime (and let's hope, purchasing anime). Yet he has stated that the issue of language can make or break a borderline anime. Also, we do not actually know if there are potential audience members in Japan that are similarly dissatisfied.
To bring this hypothetical home for a moment, I know for a fact that language was a big factor in me skipping several Hollywood movies.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: To me even if a show was terrible if they went to the effort to be authentic I would applaud them for immersion and watch just for the sake of being immersed.
I can relate to that, as an example the only romance movie I have particularly enjoyed was "Comrades, Almost a Love Story" which is about a pair of mainland immigrants attempting to make it in Hong Kong. The movie seamlessly uses Cantonese, Mandarin, and English as an essential part of the plot and it really brought my sense of immersion to an all-time high.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I download all of my Anime's, there in a legal grey area, essentially the distributors don't admit that anyone fansubs there shows otherwise they would be forced to protect theyre "copyright" and hence deny themselves early free market penetration and advertisement.
Also until they release officially subed animes on YTV/Adult swim I refuse to watch any anime dub unless it is part of a select elite few of animes that I just happened to watch first in English and the voice actors grew on me. (Inu yasha, YuGiOh/GX, GundamWing *I MIGHT rewatch death note in English out of curiosity)
However all of the Hayao Miyazaki films I rented in my video store, as I was shocked a video store in Quebec would have Japan animation movies.
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From what I've heard lately, this legal gray area is being cracked down upon a bit.
I would hope, at least, you aren't admitting to downloading anime that have been licensed for release in America, much less ones that can be purchased here.
For I don't believe that is legal in the least, technically.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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There are a couple animes that I'd say are much, much better as dubs than in the originals (see Trigun and Gundam Wing), just as there are a couple (like Full Metal Alchemist) that are utterly painful to watch in English.
But seriously Blayne, as far as I'm concerned, you don't get to complain about something you won't even pay for.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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So what you're saying is you have yet to find the Japanese Anime writer incarnation of Mel Gibson?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I'll admit, when a show hasn't been licensed yet and I therefor can't watch it legally yet, I am not completely against the possibility of seeing it online with a fansub.
Note how I say this in no way to imply that I, myself, have done so. *acting conspicuously*
But I buy most of my anime. Or watch it with a friend, or something.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
By the time it is liscensed legally I would have already seen it fansubed. I rarely watch things a second time.
The Mel Gibson comment goes right over my head as I have no idea what he has to do with this.
Gundam Wing I've seen entirely on TV in English and most of Inu yasha, I started downloading fansubs when certain Animes (you know who you are) kept doing filler or endless reruns.
I automatically am not at fault for downloading Animes if they're english dubs are painful to watch because the voice actors are painfully shrill harpy things. I wouldn't watch them in English I wouldn't even turn on the TV. Japanese fansubs to me are 90% of the time better for the following:
-Some people (including I) have noticed that the lip syncing of Anime are a little off and weird to watch in a fansub because my eyes are focused on the text at the bottom of the screen I don't notice this. In fact I've begun watching all North American movies with english sub titles now since it feels better.
-Shrill Harpy Things.
-In English films I have this habbit of noticing when characters don't "sound right" for their role when watching foreign language films this completely disappears as by not knowing the language I have a complete tabula rasa in regards to how i regard the voice acting performance and focus on the content.
-The blatant Americanization of Anime's as they're converted from Japanese mode to American 12 year old Wii owner mode so completely and utterly butchers the content and immersion of the show that if it wasn't for the fact I had nothing better to do i would have turned off the TV, that even my 15 year old self with only a basic understanding of Japanese culture based entirely from my readings of Shogun by James Clavell and this book about these 3 kids who want to see what its like to watch someone die hang around this old guy for a while spying on him but he catches them I forget the details but this turns into a sort of mentor/tutor friend thing between the kids and the old guy and the books more or less follows their lives until as expected the old guy dies and the glue that held together their friendship slipped away and everyone ended up seperating, 1 kid went to Romania.
posted
About Immersion, watching Monster while there's that "Everyone speaking fluent" Japanese when they should be speaking German thing there is however quite a bit of immersion, such as the predominence of German cars and at least all of the text shown is in German like "Polizei"
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Animes are not made for the download-happy American fans. Why should the creators and executives care what you think when you're watching English dubs on American television or fansubs from which they earn no money. I know of American fans who purchase accompanying merchandise from Japanese online vendors, but it seems like a smaller percentage.
But they're made for a Japanese audience that speaks Japanese. Maybe there are Japanese fans who are equally fed up by the lack of language diversity. Maybe there aren't enough to cut into the profits. My guess is that if shows that go that extra were rewarded with increased viewership, then maybe the trend would change. But if the popular animes are only using Japanese and aren't suffering for it, then why change?
I can understand your frustration. But since you're not paying for it, you can't expect much sympathy.
I mean, I love that Lost has Koren-speaking characters. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who has heard others complain because they "hate reading subtitles." Same complaints from watchers of "Heroes" because if you're trying to follow the episode while doing other things around the house, you can't just listen to the dialogue while you're cooking at the stove.
On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen Spanish speakers become frustrated when they heard a word mispronounced on "Dexter"
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Having Korean and Japanese on both Lost and Heroes respectively doesn't bother me, since I understand both languages. What bothers me is the character speaking those languages with obvious American accents. Talk about breaking my suspension of disbelief.
Even worse, Sun and Hiro speaking perfect English after taking some language lessons without a hint of a Korean or Japanese accent. That doesn't break immersion for you?
Posts: 339 | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
It's just one of those suspension of disbelief things that comes with the fact that we're talking about fictional entertainment. Since anime was mentioned, a good (or I guess you'd say, bad) example is the series "Blood+", which in the course of the series has the main characters start out in Okinawa and travel to Vietnam, Russia, France, England, and America by the end. All the while everyone they encounter speaks Japanese (or English in the North American dubbed version). Is it realistic? Of course not. But is it practical to have the cast learn to speak several different languages and have the audience read subtitles for about 75% of the series? Again, of course not.
I've also noticed that in general most people tend to not like reading subtitles constantly. I'm pretty accustomed to them personally since I watch a lot of subtitled anime, but even I find it a bit tiresome when I'm watching a show that's supposed to be in English. For instance, a Jin/Sun flashback episode of Lost. The problem being that I'm usually doing something else while I'm watching t.v., and constant subtitles force you to always be looking at the screen.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I have every right to complain since my television channels are tainted by horrible dub's. Have you ever seen English naruto!? Its like to quote Yahtzee "getting your ear canals raped by a man wearing a sand paper condom"!
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Generally any show that I watch subbed I'll also watch dubbed when it airs, and that includes Naruto. The voices in English dubs rarely bother me... But that's just me. I also think it's a bit ironic that anime fans rag on dubs so much but 90% of us were exposed to anime through them.
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quote:I have every right to complain since my television channels are tainted by horrible dub's. Have you ever seen English naruto!?
No I haven't, because I found the show to painfully dull even in the original language. And what do televised English dubs have to do with your original complaint? Or do you just want to complain about everything? If you don't like it, don't watch it.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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As it is, not everyone hates all the dubs to the extent you do.
You, being mostly a sub fan, lose out, when it comes to television. Sorry, that's just reality, and probably won't change.
However, on those lovely DVDs, you get a choice. So choose as you will.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Shanna:
quote:I have every right to complain since my television channels are tainted by horrible dub's. Have you ever seen English naruto!?
No I haven't, because I found the show to painfully dull even in the original language. And what do televised English dubs have to do with your original complaint? Or do you just want to complain about everything? If you don't like it, don't watch it.
And your being judgemental and overly critical of other people's opinions and doings.
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I can think of heaps of American movies set in other countries where everyone speaks English. So why shouldn't the Japanese do the same?
Or there are films like 'The Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy' where everyone (except Arthur) in England is American. Or 'Gone With The Wind' where two of the main characters in Civil War Georgia were English.
And if you think Hiro's accent is unlikely - did you hear the 'Irish' gang last season? Yikes.
Personally, I'd love there to be more multilingual TV shows. Shows that just about everyone in the world can get something from in VO.
At the moment I'm reading a French book, in French, by a Frenchman, about Americans living in San Francisco. Who, for no apparent reason, speak French. It took a few pages, but the weird is starting to dissipate.
It's called suspension of disbelief, folks.
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: I can think of heaps of American movies set in other countries where everyone speaks English. So why shouldn't the Japanese do the same?
Or there are films like 'The Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy' where everyone (except Arthur) in England is American.
A particularly bad example since a substantial portion of the 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy', community, British or not, was actually quite annoyed by the 'Americanization' of the story.
I would also point out that I specifically lodged this complaint against Hollywood, so no hypocrisy there. If anything, Hollywood can be even more 'provincial' in this regard, for lack of a better word.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:And your being judgemental and overly critical of other people's opinions and doings.
When you make a post on Hatrack, you're going to invite criticism. People are going to point out how that's its probably anti-productive to continue watching shows that aren't up to one's personal standards. Especially if you don't pay for them and therefore have not even the smallest impact to bring about change.
You asked if I watched a particular show and I answered with a simple explanation. I find it dull. Sorry if you took offense to my opinion.
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