Three teenage students were suspended for 90 days for putting up a FaceBook page with a teacher's name and photo, and claiming the teacher was a member of the 'North American Man/Boy Love Association'.
The Students are now suing the school in federal court trying to reverse their suspension. The students are defending themselves by claiming the event (Facebook Page) took place outside of school and that it was a parody and therefore protected speech.
I DON'T THINK SO.
They might have thought it was funny, but that doesn't make it Parody, and they publicly, on a grand scale, slandered the name of a teacher. If anything the teacher should be suing them BIG TIME.
They brought the action back into the school when the slandered the teacher and by extension threatened the reputation of the school.
Admittedly I haven't seen the page, which I suspect has been taken down now, but unless it contained a flat out clear statement that it was a parody or spoof, I don't think they have a leg to stand on.
posted
How is a facebook page any different than an online blog? Am I not allowed to vent about my teachers in my blog? Am I not allowed to set up a page, as a joke with my friends, to make fun of George W. Bush, calling him a monkey and a pedophile?
I don't know law at all, but as long as I've been on the internet, you're allowed to say pretty much whatever you want without legal repercussions.
edit* and isn't it called "libel" if it's in print?
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
It says that the facebook was private so only 7 people could actually look at it. I don't do facebook, so I am not sure how accurate that is. And if only 7 people had access to it, then how did the officials find out? If it really was that private, the 90 days seems a bit excessive. But again, the fact that school officials found out makes me think that more than those 7 people saw it or someone on that list shouldn't have been (did they invite a teacher, a principal, the parodied teacher?) Were they showing it off to friends on campus?
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
In general, your particular facebook page can only been seen my people within your 'network'. This can be a work location, a geographic location or a school.
quote:How is a facebook page any different than an online blog? Am I not allowed to vent about my teachers in my blog? Am I not allowed to set up a page, as a joke with my friends, to make fun of George W. Bush, calling him a monkey and a pedophile?
My thought is that the blog is your work, and not presented as Bush's. I think it's the fact that they presented it as a real representation of the teacher and his interests that will get them in trouble.
Posts: 349 | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
And believe it or not, after doing a bit of research, what they did was definitely libel, because according to the law, websites are places of publication, and only 1 person has to have seen it in order for it to be libelous.
Also, Bush libel is protected under some "public figure" clause--so we're allowed to lie about him all we want.
Of course, I don't think the kids should be suspended. I think they'll win because this falls under the case of being such a ridiculous claim that there's no way it could be true, and it was clearly a joke.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Yes, they should be suspended. They're lucky they aren't being sued. It doesn't matter if it was a "joke." It was libel and it has the possibility of ruining this poor teacher's reputation and livelihood. I think they got off lightly.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I don't see that you can say that without seeing the page first. Granted, based on what we've heard so far, it's a line crosser...but I'd want a look.
My 6th grade teacher is/was a major pedophile. We used to all joke about how he was gay. Well, he really does prefer young boys. He's just been convicted. If we, my friends and I, had gone on public-access TV and made accusations/jokes about this at some point, should we have been suspended?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I'm not saying what they did was right, but we all know that it was a joke, it got taken down immediately, and they apologized. Also, the punishment doesn't fit--because they didn't break any SCHOOL rules. I'd say that the teacher can sue the students and facebook all he wants, because it's definitely internet libel, but where's the grounds for suspension?
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posted
This wasn't making accusations. This was setting up a page in the teacher's own name. If they wanted to make accusations, they had numerous other avenues. Since facebook requires people to use their real names, could this even cross over into identity theft?
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Is the guy a pedophile? Is he a danger to children? That's the issue. Do the students have grounds to think he is? Granted, observational bias is probably what is making me have these thoughts, but me and my buddies were totally, completely right about our teacher. Principals, parents, and other teachers appear to have been oblivious.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: This wasn't making accusations. This was setting up a page in the teacher's own name. If they wanted to make accusations, they had numerous other avenues. Since facebook requires people to use their real names, could this even cross over into identity theft?
I haven't read that anywhere. Where are you getting this information? The link says they "identified a teacher as a pedophile"
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: Three teenage students were suspended for 90 days for putting up a FaceBook page with a teacher's name and photo, and claiming the teacher was a member of the 'North American Man/Boy Love Association'.
That's what it sounded like to me.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Most schools actually now include in their handbook that they can read all internet pages (such as facebook, mypage) that are public and punish you accordingly.
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"I don't know law at all, but as long as I've been on the internet, you're allowed to say pretty much whatever you want without legal repercussions."
No. People often say whatever they want and are not always punished for it, but libel laws still exist. The fact that people do it does not mean it's OK to do.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
The thing is, I'm not debating that what they did was obviously wrong and illegal, and you can be sure they've learned their lesson that "joking around" online isn't the same as joking around in the living room (which is probably how they saw it).
What I'm asking (for teachers like Icarus), is whether it's right to suspend them. Are you really "horrified and shocked" that I'd be asking such a question?
*edit--I corrected myself in a later post, Chris. I was definitely wrong in my initial thinking.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
This is an attack on a teacher, not just a joke on the internet. This makes it under the domain of the schools. And as I said, most high schools have stated that they can and will read internet webpages and punish for it. If students don't pay attention to that line in the handbook, that is the student's fault.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Of course it is. We suspend kids for behavior off campus all the time. We recently suspended some girls for renting a limousine and using it to establish a traveling bar service on homecoming. They didn't bring alcohol into the dance. They didn't drink on campus or at the hotel. But their behavior was school-related, and inappropriate, all the same. This facebook page is obviously school-related--it involves a teacher, and in fact uses a picture taken from the district's own website. Their only relationship with the person they libeled was through school, and the intent of the page was to diminish the teacher's ability to carry out his job.
The threshold for enforceability of school rules is lower than that of the law, not higher. I can't arrest a kid for saying "f*** off" to me, but I can suspend him.
Yes, I really am aghast.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Well I apologize for questioning the situation at all. I'm sorry my question makes you so "aghast" to think that there are awful people like me out there.
edit* and that's my way of saying "maybe I'm wrong". It was just asking a question.
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posted
Assuming the page is unprotected speech - which means it's not a parody - then not only should the school punish them, but it should make them transfer to a different school in the system after the punishment ends. This teacher should not have to ever see them again.
If it is protected speech (most likely as parody) - which we can't judge without seeing - then punishment by the school is unconstitutional. (That's almost a tautology.) Given that the teacher isn't a public person, the line for proving parody is much more difficult than the Jerry Falwell/Hustler case was.
The accusation is per se libel in most states, and it was definitely published. If it's not protected, the teacher has a good case.
BTW, one of the factors in granting a preliminary injunction (which is what the order to let them back into school amounts to) is likelihood of success on the merits. That is, the judge thinks they have some chance of success here. It's hard to say how great a chance - there are lots of cases where injunctions are granted that end up going the other way.
quote:Is the guy a pedophile? Is he a danger to children? That's the issue. Do the students have grounds to think he is?
Apparently not: "'They're not saying it's true, they're saying it's just parody,' the students' attorney, Marc Mezibov , said Friday."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
launchywiggin, I want to approach this without rancor and ask you if you truly don't see the problem here.
I mean, I love freedom of expression and I love the internet, but I do understand boundaries. I'm curious why my boundaries (and those of Icarus and Tom and others) are so different from yours.
Schools take accusations of sexual misconduct very seriously, they have to. Even an accusation of such a thing can be detrimental to a teacher's career. Do you truly not see how damaging this is to that teacher and how utterly unfair? A prank is one thing, setting out to ruin someone's life another.
One of my professors was accused of sleeping with female students. The teacher is female. She is, as far as I know, straight. Yet, this accusation was made by a male student who was dissatisfied with his grade and disliked reading poetry by lesbian poets in this professors class.
It was still very hurtful for the professor and an ordeal for her to go through, just because some disgruntled student made and unfounded accusation.
This is not funny. It does not fall under "parody". It's very serious, and it should be taken very seriously - and the students involved absolutely should be punished.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Well of course that's what they're saying now. They're trying to avoid being sued.
If the accusation were true, then they would have a much stronger legal position. In other words, saying that it's not true made them more likely to be sued, not less.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Launchywiggin, I think the disconnect here might be that you're not considering the impact on the teacher's career. To you, this is just a joke. But the thing about it is that teachers are entrusted with a community's children, and parents tend to over-react rather than under-react when there is a perceived threat to their children. And understandably so. When a teacher is credibly accused of being a pedophile, they are immediately suspended from their job during the investigation. You don't yell "fire" in a crowded theater because of the potential for people being hurt. That makes the joke not funny. You also don't call someone a pedophile as a joke -- particularly someone who works with children -- because it can wreck their entire life. The potential for hurt is to great. They can be fired, unable to find another job in their field, unable to support their family, lose the community's trust. . . because some idiot kids don't understand the seriousness of their actions. Yes, mature people are aghast at the idea. Once you have kids to feed and a mortgage and a car payment, you will be too.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I'm sorry you feel insulted, launchywiggin. I don't think it's insulting of me to say that I'm aghast, but I can see that the point (i.e., whether it's insulting) is debatable. But I really am shocked and troubled, so what should I say? I'm not calling you any names. I'm just expressing my natural reaction.
And I do know teachers who have been falsely accused, moved to non-teaching positions while being investigated, etc. They don't last long after that, even if cleared. Part of it is that the kids know what happened. People question whether it was true, and those who don't believe it can still use it to undermine the teacher by spreading rumors, graffiti, taunts, etc. Part of it is that the teacher himself has a newfound awareness of just how powerless he is in the face of this, and that affects his effectiveness in doing his job. He knows it could happen again. Moreover, he knows that a second accusation against him will automatically carry more weight than an accusation against somebody else. (I actually know both a male and a female who were falsely accused, but I'm using masculine pronouns for readability.) It is a career-destroying event, and, in the name of protecting kids, we really have no way to protect ourselves from this. We are left vulnerable on purpose; I am aghast when someone exploits this vulnerability, because its presence is a sign of our commitment to protecting kids above all else.
This is serious stuff.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
That assumes the he's not a pedophile. I figure there's an excellent chance that there's truth behind the accusation. I had plenty of male teachers in school. Only one did I ever have that "creepy" feeling around, and only two were ever widely said to be gay. Of those two, the one I had that creepy feeling around was the pedophile.
We didn't go around making baseless accusations about this stuff when I was in school. We were usually right.
If they were really trying to hurt this guy, they could have found much more damaging ways to do it. From my point of view, he's guilty until proven innocent. Granted, I'm just basing that on my personal experience...but how many of you have a former teacher who has been convicted of sex with underage students?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
For teachers, it seems like the moment they are ever accused of being pedophile, their career is over, guilty or not guilty. So even something meant as a "joke" can screw up a teacher's life something awful.
The kids who perpetrated the joke should be disciplined, especially so that they fully understand the ramifications of their actions.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Your post is evidence of why the charges are so damaging and why the kids deserve to be suspended and sued too. You don't know jack about the guy, but you assume there is merit to the charges. Lots of other people will too.
By the way, you're wrong about there being more damaging ways to hurt a teacher. That's it. That's the big gun. You destroy his career, his standing in the community outside of his career, you may even plant doubts in the minds of friends and relatives. And you're also wrong in your contention that no students are sophisticated enough to know this.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Because one time a guy you thought was gay turned out to be not gay but a pedophile? How many other pedophiles do you think you've crossed paths with that didn't strike you as odd? (Surely you don't believe you've only ever met one?) How many guys have struck you as gay without being gay?
Plus the evidence in this case is against you. If there was anything at all to the charges, the kids would try to use it to defend themselves from a libel suit.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Can you see, given my experiences, why I would?
Can we see why you would generalize from a single anecdote to a general principle? Yeah, I bet everyone here can. I know it doesn't surprise me at all that you do this.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
"Because one time a guy you thought was gay turned out to be not gay but a pedophile?"
No, because I only had 2 teachers who anyone ever accused of being gay. One of them gave me a very creepy feeling several times, not the other. The one that gave me that creepy vibe? The pedophile. I had plenty of male teachers, but only two that were believed/rumored to be gay by all the kids. I'm just saying. It proves nothing, but...the smart thing to do (in my book) would be to ask several dozen recently graduated students of this accused teacher "who, of all your past male teachers, would be most likely to be a pedophile?". If you had asked me that the day after I graduated high school, I'd have said "Robert Watson, my 6th grade social studies teacher" with absolutely no hesitation.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
You are the perfect example of why these kids need to be dealt with harshly. If he's innocent (and I presume that he has been investigated, because as Icarus said, these things are taken very seriously), his reputation has been ruined. People like you will always believe he was guilty and he'll be treated as a criminal regardless of what the courts say. If he's innocent, he doesn't deserve that, and the kids that caused the situation deserve to feel some serious consequences.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by steven: It proves nothing, but...the smart thing to do (in my book) would be to ask several dozen recently graduated students of this accused teacher "who, of all your past male teachers, would be most likely to be a pedophile?". If you had asked me that the day after I graduated high school, I'd have said "Robert Watson, my 6th grade social studies teacher" with absolutely no hesitation.
In my book, the smart thing to do would be to use steven as an infallible pedophile dowser, travelling the land being brandished like a magic wand and ridding us of evil-doers.
Like Batman, or at least one of the tools on his equipment belt.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
"If it is protected speech (most likely as parody) - which we can't judge without seeing - then punishment by the school is unconstitutional."
Umm. Schools punish students every day for protected speech. I'm fairly certain that schools have a lot of leeway for punishing students for speech infractions.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Umm. Schools punish students every day for protected speech. I'm fairly certain that schools have a lot of leeway for punishing students for speech infractions.
No, they don't. Less student speech is protected than in normal circumstances, but if it is protected, punishing for the content of the speech is constitutional.
As I said, it's a tautology.
Edit: I think we're just saying the same thing two different ways.
posted
I believe the courts have ruled that what is protected speech for an adult is not necessarily protected speech for a student at school. Otherwise, you would not be able to have school uniforms.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Of course, I don't think the kids should be suspended. I think they'll win because this falls under the case of being such a ridiculous claim that there's no way it could be true, and it was clearly a joke.
This is nonsense. First of all, it's not clearly a joke-except in hindsight, now that they're rightfully getting their asses chewed in a big way.
Supposing I were to say about a teacher, "Man, that guy hates *insert racial slur here*!" Unless I happen to be performing at a comedy club while saying that, it's not a joke. Even if I am, it's not funny.
I haven't gotten to say this in awhile, so I'm grateful for the opportunity! Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences of speech.
What would you say if the teacher had posted on his website, "Johnny likes to have sex with barnyard animals!"
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Right, I'm the problem.
It's normal and natural, because we want to protect our kids. But it doesn't change the fact that if he's innocent, his life is still hell now.
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posted
I have no idea what you're trying to say. Teachers who are accused of pedophilia should be ostracised even if they're innocent?
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I guess I just didn't realize how seriously people would take a claim like this. To me, it seems like such a ridiculous claim that nobody would consider it without real evidence (like a student coming forward about being molested). These kids admitted they were just joking around. It just strikes me as an immature joke that students make to each other all the time--something they'd write on the bathroom wall--and they extended that to facebook, not realizing that it's not the same.
Everyone here seems to think they were malicious and deliberate and fully aware that they were going to cause him a lot of grief (which is totally possible), but I can definitely see how a couple students who were joking around with each other on the their computers wouldn't see the gravity of their actions.
*edited to add: I DON'T think they shouldn't have to face the consequences of their actions. I do understand how what they did was seriously wrong. But I also see the possibility that they didn't realize the difference between facebook and "the burn book" from mean girls.
posted
I think steven is coming from the perspective that surely no one would accuse someone of being a pedophile without reason. I also just want to point out that the difference between being gay and being a pedophile is HUGE. They are not interchangable and should not be used interchangably. (I know a woman who found out her son was gay and immediately assumed he lusted after 12 year old boys).
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Just to remind everyone, including steven, none of the students have accused the teacher of being a pedaphile.
And, to broaden steven's experience, I had a high school teacher accused and acquited. It ruined his teaching career; first he moved schools, and last I heard he'd been forced to seek for employment in another field. He was a good teacher who supported himself and his kids on a teacher's salary, and had given a lot to the high school over the years, in terms of helping kids and participating in extracurriculars. From what I can tell, even though all the other students got a "creepy" feeling around him, he was a stand-up guy.
Now, my PE coach, who everyone thought was great, was the one caught soliciting a 15-yr-old girl on an internet site. I'm glad we don't convict based on "creepy" feelings.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: Everyone here seems to think they were malicious and deliberate and fully aware that they were going to cause him a lot of grief (which is totally possible), but I can definitely see how a couple students who were joking around with each other on the their computers wouldn't see the gravity of their actions.
If they were malicious and deliberate I would be more in favor of a harsher punishment, like expulsion. The fact that I believe they were just stupid kids who didn't think about the consequences of their actions makes me think 90-day suspension is about right.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Everyone here seems to think they were malicious and deliberate and fully aware that they were going to cause him a lot of grief (which is totally possible), but I can definitely see how a couple students who were joking around with each other on the their computers wouldn't see the gravity of their actions.
90 days suspension should make them see the gravity of the situation quite nicely.
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