posted
I don't know about that. I'm probably as far from a gender role traditionalist as you'll find, and I'm squarely on the Kaylee and River side of the fence. "Submissive" isn't exactly the word I'd use, either. I wouldn't consider Kaylee "submissive," certainly. And River is more "damaged" than "submissive." And when she gets past the damage, she becomes what folks call "bad ass."
posted
I was unfairly rating them as actresses, although I think if you asked Jewel and Summer they would agree that my ratings were fair and unbiased. Assuming they didn't object to the entire process and beat me up.
Posts: 413 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Just to throw a spanner into the works, I have yet a different take. Inara and River are both gracile. However, Inara is mature and gracile while River is immature and gracile. Kaylee is the metaphorical girl next door, not particularly gracile and immature as well.
Arguably, Zoe is far and away the most mature. She's also well, a big woman. (compared to the rest at least). She's kind of a class unto herself.
Since I'm Asian and young (or immature, depending on your perspective), I'd naturally be pre-disposed toward the more gracile and more immature women in the group. Zoe would take a huge penalty under this kind of scheme ... so I was a bit surprised (although I should not have been) by the slant towards Zoe on this board.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:River is constantly being protected by her brother.
Except for that time when she killed three guys in three seconds. And then there was the time when she, you know, killed an entire army of Reavers with her bare hands and feet. Could Simon do either of those things? "Pffshaw*, didn't think so.
Also, she can (maybe) kill you with her brain.
Posts: 413 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yeah - except for that time. Two unexpected 90-second sequences do not counterbalance 18 episodes and most of a movie of being protected by Simon.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:River is more "damaged" than "submissive." And when she gets past the damage, she becomes what folks call "bad ass."
No way - she's got a great...
er, was that out loud?
Hah, touche. I admit that River/ Summer didn't do much for me until "Serenity." Between her bad (er, good) assitude and newfound appreciation for, ah, less dowdy outfits, there was some serious re-evaluation happening in my head.
Re: Javert Hugo- Kaylee and River do a fair amount of saving themselves. It's Kaylee's prowess in the engine room that keeps the Serenity crew's collective keisters in the air more than once, and River not only does some buttkickin' in the movie, but also defeats the series' best antagonist in a battle of wits. They're strong women just like all of Joss's other female characters; they just show it differently.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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First, the Reaver scene was hardly unexpected. Second, Simon tried to protect her from a lot of things, most of the time she did her own thing anyway. She's strange and reclusive, not submissive.
Edit: She's also smarter than anyone on the ship, and super sarcastic as well. Both of which I likes.
Posts: 413 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I'm not saying they are weak - they are Joss characters, of course they are not.
They are, however, much more likely to relate to the men on the ship in a stereotypical "feminine" manner than either Zoe or Inara (when she's off the job).
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I'm rating the characters. I don't know the actresses (having never seen even one of them in any single other venture).
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Avatar300: She's strange and reclusive, not submissive.
Agreed.
But I was speaking of Summer, not River, mostly. I am very impressed with her physically. The fight work in Serenity was very well done and took a ton of physical talent. Her ballet background also showed beautifully there. I am also quite impressed with the way she handled the multiple facets of River's character-- she shows a depth, understanding, and sensitivity that most "action heroes" lack and it was an excellent performance (which leaves me wondering why she hasn't gotten signed on to do more other things).
At any rate, yeah, I think she's hot. If you guys don't that's ok... more for me
edit to add: For not dissimilar reasons, Zoe is the most attractive *character* to me-- competence is hot and Zoe *is* competence personified.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jim-Me, I agree with everything you said about Summer Glau. She is the reason I'll be watching "The Sarah Connor Chronicles" come January.
Posts: 413 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Faith (Dushku) never impressed me-- she was too typical bad girl. I'm just not interested in Arrogant/Broken women, I guess.
Buffy was much more attractive. Buffy had soul; Faith was just spicy frosting.
Blasphemy.
It was all about Willow.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: There are exceptions, of course--Angel on Whedon's part
Oh, please. Angel was all about Cordelia and Fred.
Really? I never really got into the show, and just saw the first couple of discs of the first season (and scattered episodes here and there that just happened to be on), so I'll freely admit that that was largely an assumption on my part.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: There are exceptions, of course--Angel on Whedon's part
Oh, please. Angel was all about Cordelia and Fred.
Really? I never really got into the show, and just saw the first couple of discs of the first season (and scattered episodes here and there that just happened to be on), so I'll freely admit that that was largely an assumption on my part.
Not really. Angel was an ensemble show with Angel the center-piece much in the same way Buffy was the center of her little Scoobie gang. Although perhaps Buffy was a little more dominant amongst her crew than Angel amongst his.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Faith (Dushku) never impressed me-- she was too typical bad girl. I'm just not interested in Arrogant/Broken women, I guess.
Buffy was much more attractive. Buffy had soul; Faith was just spicy frosting.
Blasphemy.
It was all about Willow.
Faith. Definitely Faith. I 'bout died when she did the shower scene in Angel.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: There are exceptions, of course--Angel on Whedon's part
Oh, please. Angel was all about Cordelia and Fred.
Really? I never really got into the show, and just saw the first couple of discs of the first season (and scattered episodes here and there that just happened to be on), so I'll freely admit that that was largely an assumption on my part.
I was kind of kidding. Angel was only about Cordelia and Fred (and Faith and Justine and even Illyria) as far as I was concerned. And Gwen (Electro Girl). And Eve. And Lilah. They had some great women on that show.
Although just to break the stereotype a bit, my very favoritest character on Angel was Lindsay. I almost went to a con just to hear him sing.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
No, Lorne wasn't the only singer on "Angel." Christian Kane sang on his last episode in Season 2 (the one in which Lindsay gets the evil hand)- at Lorne's bar, actually, strumming an acoustic guitar and singing a folksy ballad. I'm pretty sure it's the only time we see someone sing at the bar who isn't singing karoake. IRL, Kane is the lead singer of an alt country band. He's quite good.
If you include Spike, then there were three fantastic male singers on "Angel" during its fifth season. They should've pulled a "Once More With Feeling" there, too.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Nope. Christian Kane played Lindsey McDonald, an attorney at Crane, Poole and Schmidt. Er, I mean Wolfram and Hart.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Somebody mentioned over at the imdb boards that Whedon has a tendency to think that his shows are beyond marketing, and therefore proceeds to give them cutesy titles that aren't necessarily appealing to the crucial 18-36 male audience. For instance, "Firefly." Now compare that title to "Battlestar Galactica." The latter title indicates space action in a way that "Firefly" never could.
"Dollhouse" is yet another cutesy title from Whedon that might might not make the show immediately appealing to certain demographics.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Agreed, the_Somalian. "Dollhouse" still makes me not want to watch it instinctively, and I know what it's about and DO want to watch it. Maybe it's creative, in an in-joke sort of way, but if I saw it on my cable box and didn't know what it was, there's now way I'd give it a look.
Heck, when it comes out I may have forgotten what it is and will probably miss the first season wondering when the new Whedon show is coming out Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I'm hoping Joss follows his pre-Firefly convention and renames the show "Echo," myself. It's short, evocative, and doesn't have the same "Mattel presents: Barbie, the sitcom" feel to it. Not that I expect him to, but from a marketing standpoint, at least, it'd be the smart thing to do. Which is not the same thing as what would be the right thing to do thematically, which is what Joss does best- and what he tends to do even if his marketing folks are screaming bloody murder. See also: "Serenity."
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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See, when I think of Dollhouse, I think of Todd Solondz, which makes me even more excited for the show than I am already.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:People kvetched about Buffy, too, and they were wrong.
I don't know. I believe I've had a harder time selling the greatness of Buffy to my friends than I'd have had if it came with a less campy title.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I think Dollhouse is a great title. People kvetched about Buffy, too, and they were wrong.
Not the same. For one, the title wasn't 'Buffy'. It was 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'. That's a much better, much more interesting, and much more accurate title than 'Firefly' or 'Dollhouse'.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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People kvetched about Buffy precisely because it was called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." The network actually tried changing it to just "Buffy" several times, but Joss rejected the idea. Again, Joss chooses his titles with great care, and strictly for their thematic value, not for any perceived marketability. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" needed the full title because it encapsulated the show's foundation (both ironically and seriously) in campy horror flicks. Simply titling it "Buffy" would not have that effect.
Unfortunately, the thought behind the full title only really makes sense if you actually watch the show. Newcomers (myself included for a long time) can't tell initially whether the title is meant seriously or not, and veer away because they don't want to watch a campy horror show about vampires. And yes, in doing so, they miss out on some of the best-written television ever produced. But I think it's understandable... especially considering that the advertisements for the show made it seem like 90210 with fangs. Again, the title makes thematic sense. And once you start watching the show, you grow to love it. But it's undeniably crappy from a marketing standpoint.
I suspect the same will be true of "Dollhouse." I actually do like the title as well, and like BtVS, it makes thematic sense based on what we know of the show's plot and setting: the characters are little more than toys to be played with, and put away in the dollhouse when they aren't needed. It's like Toy Story, if Buzz and Woody were brainwashed and stuffed back into their toychest with no chance of escape whenever Andy was done playing. But to someone unfamiliar with Joss and/or the show itself, the first thing that comes to mind is not "intriguing science fiction series with potential for killer drama," but "Barbie and Ken's Love Shack."
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Dollhouse made me think freaky horror movie. But I may be weird. I think I would be more excited about the show if it wasn't Eliza Dushku. She just doesn't seem that deep of an actress.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by scholar: Dollhouse made me think freaky horror movie. But I may be weird. I think I would be more excited about the show if it wasn't Eliza Dushku. She just doesn't seem that deep of an actress.
Wow. I'd consider Eliza one of the best actresses to have appeared on Buffy and Angel, and that's saying quite a lot. Her performance in the Angel episode "Sanctuary" gives me chills every time, particularly the final shot.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Faith (Dushku) never impressed me-- she was too typical bad girl. I'm just not interested in Arrogant/Broken women, I guess.
Buffy was much more attractive. Buffy had soul; Faith was just spicy frosting.
Blasphemy.
It was all about Willow.
Faith. Definitely Faith. I 'bout died when she did the shower scene in Angel.
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