posted
I have a hypothetical question. Let's say there is a kid - call her Mary and put her in middle school - who makes remarks that cause you to think she may be a danger to herself. There is no reason to think she may be a danger to others.
Let's say you do all the right things, refer her to counseling, encourage her to get help, document the conversation and turn the documents over to proper authorities, etc. You even try to get Mom involved, but Mom is not really interested in talking to you.
How does a teacher determine the line between a genuine cry for help that needs full throttle intervention, from an attention-seeking ploy? Because in the one case, if you don't act the consequences can be dire. In the other, your reaction may be reinforcing the troubling behavior.
I'm worried because none of my classes that I'm going to take in college seem to address these sticky issues. Oh, we get information on what it means to be a mandatory reporter, but we don't get, say, a psychology class that truly trains us to handle such situations. I realize that the school counselors are much better trained to handle these things and that I should refer them to the counselor, but what if the student refuses to talk to the counselor and is insistent on coming to talk to you?
A friend who is a first year teacher has a similar issue, she is worried but the older, more experienced teacher say the student is just playing her, she says something shocking and then she gets out of class and gets to go to the counselor's office, etc. - she is attention seeking and the new teacher is just rewarding that behavior by giving her exactly what she wants - attention. But the new teacher is not ready to be so cavalier about it and just assume the child won't hurt herself. Then again, she's tired of the experienced teachers telling her that she's being played, and they seem to know much more than she does so she is doubting herself because she's young and inexperienced. No doubt the student is able to sense her insecurity as well. What my friend says, though and I agree, is that if the girl can't or won't talk to mom and refuses to talk to the counselor, and this teacher is the only adult authority figure she trusts, she doesn't want to discourage the child from coming to her. Then again, she's not a trained therapist, and the child does need to talk to a professional.
posted
No advice but yeah that's one of my concerns with education classes. Certainly not the only concern, I liked my intro class but the ones I've taken sense then haven't helped much at all.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
There comes a point where you can only do so much.
I remember when my friend told me, in 10th grade, that she was going to kill herself. She had a plan, she had a timeframe, and she asked me not to tell. I told her I hoped she would not harm herself, that we loved her and she didn't need to do it.
Then I went to my favorite teacher, gave her my friend's name, what she had told me, and asked her not to mention my name in any of it. That was the most I could do to try to preserve both my friendship and my friend-- who I was not sure if she really meant it or not.
At that point, I trusted the teacher to go through proper channels. I had to trust the counselors to evaluate my friend and know whether she really meant it.
There just comes a point where you have done what you are supposed to and there's really nothing more you can do. If she's gotten the counselors involved, done the reporting paperwork or hotline (whatever it is in your state that you're supposed to do-- we had a hotline), tried to speak to the mother-- I don't know what else she can do. She has to trust that people will do their jobs and know she has done what she can. If it's a recurring problem maybe she should see about getting the ball rolling for more in-depth intervention. But there's only so much of that that is up to her. Most of it is up to others "higher up the chain", and she has to trust that the girl will get what she needs, and if, heaven forbid, something happens, she will have done everything in her power.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: How does a teacher determine the line between a genuine cry for help that needs full throttle intervention, from an attention-seeking ploy? Because in the one case, if you don't act the consequences can be dire. In the other, your reaction may be reinforcing the troubling behavior.
It's a difficult situation, and it isn't always either-or -- sometimes (often) it's both.
I think having a standard protocol is key. You will have charges that call wolf again and again, and for at least one of them, there will eventually, at some time, be a real wolf. And so as a responsible party without the time/resources/training to deal with sorting out the drama from the real threats, you have to get other people involved when certain boundaries are crossed.
I also think it helps to make that clear up front, at the start of the relationship, when the emotional setting is neutral and habits haven't been established. As you set up the relationship, a simple "and I am required to get other people involved if you say or do something that threatens yourself or another in life or limb, so that's what I will do, even if I'm not sure if you are serious." You can add (if you want) that you can and will keep everything else confidential if they choose it to be, but those are the times when you have to pass it on.
This actually has come up for me even more frequently as a teacher of medical students than as a teacher and/or interviewer of adolescents. I can't even count on one hand the number of med students who sent me an email with serious issues they also wanted me to keep confidential.
What can I do with that? I already have the information, and I already have the responsibility, but they sent the email expecting and asking it to be confidential. That's exactly why I [then looked into this and started to] set the boundaries when we first met, as this heads off the Catch-22s in advance.
You also do have some other options, even if you must pass it on. You can listen to your charge and encourage him or her to do the further reporting him- or herself. You can also give them input into how and when you do pass on the information, which is especially helpful (I think) if the person has been put in a powerless position. Any power you can give that person then, within the borders of what you are required to do, is going to be helpful.
On the other hand, it seems you are more worried about histrionics or attention-seeking drama. It may be useful to read some of the information out there on strategies of being a caregiver for persons with Borderline Personality Disorder, which is often marked by multiple suicide attempts (or "gestures," as they are sometimes called when it seems the attempt is not intended to succeed in itself). Professionals have found that setting clear boundaries at the start of the relationship is most helpful here, too. If you'd like more information, I do have some good online resources.
Good luck! They will be lucky themselves to have you as a teacher.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: But the new teacher is not ready to be so cavalier about it and just assume the child won't hurt herself. Then again, she's tired of the experienced teachers telling her that she's being played, and they seem to know much more than she does so she is doubting herself because she's young and inexperienced. No doubt the student is able to sense her insecurity as well.
I wanted to deal with this separately. I think that if one does not have the time/resources/training to make the differentiation, and if one is mandated to involve others, then one must involve others, period. Presumably the "others" will have the training to deal with repeated and problematic misuses of that channel by those who are our charges, and so that "other" can make the plan on how to deal with this the next time.
(If that plan from (e.g.) the school counselor includes an instruction not to send the student on physically to the counselor's office, I'd still document it and convey on that documentation in a traceable way. I do this for the student's safety, but also my own peace of mind. The hell you live through by having passed on something not of your responsibility but which was then mishandled is still hell, but it's a different level of hell than the one you get when you yourself made the error in judgment. And again, if you do not have the time/resources/training to deal with it appropriately, then you do not have the time/resources/training to deal with it appropriately.)
How do you deal with colleagues who expect you to do less? I think one way is to say calmly but firmly, "this is the way I was trained to do it, and I respect that training." Then say as little as possible, changing the subject when appropriate. It's their shame, not yours.
---
I'd also be very careful about hubris in dealing with these situations. It is very flattering to be the only one who a charge is willing to approach, and you can indeed do a lot as a single voice -- but when you know you do not have the time/resources/training to deal with it, then you do that charge a disservice by yielding to the praise inherent in that request. You owe better to your charges than to assume a position that you are not able to, even if you are the only one they wish to involve. That is letting them down.
If you have warned them in advance (at an emotionally neutral time) of when you must pass things on and when you can keep things confidential, and if you honor that promise to them, there is a huge zone in between where you can listen and help. And that is not letting them down.
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posted
Maybe the student would go with you to see a school counselor/therapist/etc. That might be a good way to get a trained professional involved without the student feeling like you just want to foist them off on someone else.
Posts: 368 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:How does a teacher determine the line between a genuine cry for help that needs full throttle intervention, from an attention-seeking ploy? Because in the one case, if you don't act the consequences can be dire. In the other, your reaction may be reinforcing the troubling behavior.
I think its very important to realize that there isn't a clear line to be drawn. When a middle schooler starts talking about hurting themselves, it is always a cry for help. Even if they aren't seriously going to hurt themselves, healthy well adjusted kids don't threaten to hurt themselves just to get more attention.
One thing these teacher can do to help, no matter how serious the situation, is to find positive ways to give this student extra attention that don't revolve around the threats being made. If this student is confiding in this teacher, its likely that the student enjoys the subject your friend teaches. If for example, she is an English teacher, she might praise the students writing, loan her books to read, offer to share poems or stories. If she is a math teacher, she might give her some challenging math puzzles, encourage her to enter a competition or maybe join (start) a math club.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
The idea that a kid would want attention badly enough to make up self-hazardous tales would lead me to think that they NEED attention. So I wouldn't worry that it's giving in to such a thing. I would think "this kid needs attention of one kind or another." And then I would start putting that into motion.
I've never thought giving attention to an attention-hungry kid was coddling them, really. (I know you're not saying that at all!)
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
CT's answer is, as always, thorough, thoughtful, and wise.
Report, report, report. Every time. Your friend's colleagues are wrong. If they're lucky, they'll never get in trouble for that wrongness.
I always let all of my students know at the beginning of the year (e.g. a neutral time) that I'm a mandated reporter and what that means.
And then I ALWAYS pass on ANY information that indicates a child might hurt herself or someone else (or might be hurting herself, suffering abuse, etc.), every single time. That's my job. It is NOT my job to discern between attention-getting maneuvers and the actual thing. And that's what I'd tell colleagues who told me I was being manipulated.
(As for a child who doesn't want to talk to the counselor...I tell the counselor what I know and/ or suspect. The rest is up to her to deal with. I've discharged my legal responsibility.)
In my experience, students have liked that I explained that I was a mandated reporter. It meant that they could come tell me something they might not feel comfortable telling the counselor, knowing that I would pass it on and they (or the friend they were telling me about) would get help.
Good luck, Belle. If it's any help at all, this was something I worried a lot about before I started teaching, but it's really become a non-issue. It was a little scary to deal with the first time, but also a relief to turn over the problem to someone who was qualified to deal with it.
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posted
If a student has reached out to a particular teacher, I feel it is important that the teacher in question makes an effort to maintain open lines of communication with that student.
When I was teaching middle school, several of my students came to me with problems they felt they couldn't tell their parents or their friends for fear of being judged. Students who you feel are a potential danger to themselves are even more in need of a responsible adult they can talk to - especially one who can involve other appropriate individuals that student may not feel comfortable approaching on their own (such as a counselor).
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Let's say you do all the right things, refer her to counseling, encourage her to get help, document the conversation and turn the documents over to proper authorities, etc. You even try to get Mom involved, but Mom is not really interested in talking to you.
How does a teacher determine the line between a genuine cry for help that needs full throttle intervention, from an attention-seeking ploy? Because in the one case, if you don't act the consequences can be dire. In the other, your reaction may be reinforcing the troubling behavior.
If you've done all of those right things mentioned above them you have already acted, and I'd say that you've done pretty much all you can do as a teacher. Ultimately, it's up to the councilors, parents, and other "proper authorities" to address the problem.
When it comes to emotional/psychological issues, I think that we teachers (I'm a new teacher, by the way) are like first responders rather than doctors. We perform the necessary first aid (ie. documenting what we see and hear, and communicating with the right people), and then let those who are trained to perform surgery, so to speak, take over. If you try to do more than you feel qualified to do, you may do more harm than good. It's not up to you to initiate an intervention.
As for whether the kid is playing you or not, let the councilors decide. I say, trust their judgment unless you have very good reason not to.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sharpie: The idea that a kid would want attention badly enough to make up self-hazardous tales would lead me to think that they NEED attention. So I wouldn't worry that it's giving in to such a thing. I would think "this kid needs attention of one kind or another." And then I would start putting that into motion.
I've never thought giving attention to an attention-hungry kid was coddling them, really. (I know you're not saying that at all!)
You're right, but you want to make sure you aren't reinforcing the bad behavior when you give them attention. You need to find something (really anything) positive that they do and start giving them attention for that behavior.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I'm worried because none of my classes that I'm going to take in college seem to address these sticky issues. Oh, we get information on what it means to be a mandatory reporter, but we don't get, say, a psychology class that truly trains us to handle such situations.
Teachers don't get this kind of psychological training because you aren't supposed to treat student psychological problems. Teachers need to remember that they aren't a counsellors or psychologist. Some teachers seem to attract students who need someone to talk to. Thats can be great. But if you are that kind of a teacher you need to draw some clear boundaries as CT has suggested.
If a student fell and broke their leg, you might render first aid but you would never try to set the bone. You likely wouldn't try to determine whether or not the leg was broken. If it seemed serious, you'd give first aid and then call in the experts. You need to do the same mental help problems.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:As for whether the kid is playing you or not, let the councilors decide.
As an aside, a councillor is a person who is a member of a council. A counselor is someone who give counsel.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:If a student fell and broke their leg, you might render first aid but you would never try to set the bone. You likely wouldn't try to determine whether or not the leg was broken. If it seemed serious, you'd give first aid and then call in the experts. You need to do the same mental help problems.
You totally stole my analogy!
quote:As an aside, a councillor is a person who is a member of a council. A counselor is someone who give counsel.
posted
okay, guys thanks - likening teachers to first reponders really helps. That's something I get.
I'll pass your anologies along - I do know that my friend has been very careful to document each and everything - that 's one thing she is doing, and forwards it to the school counselor everytime the student talks to her about something.
One of my classes did say that everytime a student comes to talk to us and asks us to keep something confidential we should say up-front that we cannot make that promise - that if the student shares something we have to report, then we will have to report it.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I don't remember who said this to me, but I think it was in an education class.
This person said that when a student approached her and said, "I want to tell you something, but you must promise not to tell," that she replies that she can't promise that because of whatever reason. And never once had she had a student go away. They always end up telling her anyway.
That stuck with me. I think it's important to remember, because we might be afraid to make the student too scared to talk.
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posted
I tell kids that I'd rather have them hate me forever for reporting something they wanted me to keep confidential, then for something bad to happen to them or to someone else.
They have been able to understand that this means that breaking confidentiality means that I care about them.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: I'd still document it and convey on that documentation in a traceable way. I do this for the student's safety, but also my own peace of mind.
I would also heed this advice from CT. A non-tenured teacher would be the perfect person to fire if the student does cause harm to themselves or others. I know our district works this way. Most Administrators do not want to document anything because then there is proof that they did or didn't do anything. Protect yourself while you are trying to help the child.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:This person said that when a student approached her and said, "I want to tell you something, but you must promise not to tell," that she replies that she can't promise that because of whatever reason.
And this is what real therapists do as well. Gad, would I really want to become a therapist?
I should expand this to say, therapists have whole systems of how to deal with this because it's what they do- deal with high risk cases. And it happens my sister was suggested a novel route for me to become a therapist a while back, which I'm finding myself sometimes considering.
posted
I was browsing through old threads (it's the second period intermission for the Wings game, I'm bored) and read through this thread.
When I was a sophmore in high school, I don't remember exactly why but I was passing notes between a couple friends of mine and for whatever reason told one of them that I was going to kill myself. I wasn't suicidal, not even close, but for whatever reason said I was going to do it. Anywho, my friends took it seriously and took the note to the school psychologist, and they notified my parents, and I had to see a therapist. It was a mortifying experience. At first I was furious with my friends (they were awesome friends, and it killed them to go to the psychologist, but they cared more about me surviving than they did about continuing our friendship, which I think is an admirable and hard choice to make), for all the hassle it caused, though it really was my own fault for seeking attention, which may have been what I was doing, I don't totally remember.
Looking back, I really have only myself to blame for the embaressment and hassle, and my friends, the school and my parents all showed an extreme amount of concern, which is touching (in retrospect).
On the otherhand, during that entire ordeal, and for that matter, three years prior to that and many years since, I had a serious problem with self injury. It started in Junior High, it continued all through High School with a notable one year exception where I stopped, and off and on into college (currently off, hooray for me). I think it's ironic that my faux problem received an insane amount of attention, but my real problem was quietly hidden underneath longsleeve shirts and really, really poor excuses.
But what do you do when you see a student with a bunch of neatly ordered cuts across his/her arm? Generally I've found that people seeking attention will go out of their way make something that they're pretending to hide, all too obvious. And I've found that serious cutters (Self Injurers) will go extremely out of their way to hide their problem, because a great many of them aren't suicidal, but no one really understands the problem, which is extremely more widespread than most people think.
I think when you hear that there's trouble, be it in the home, or where harm may come to the student, you should always report it. If they are seeking attention, they'll get more than they want, and it's better to report four false alarms and one real one than not report any of them and have one serious casualty. But I wonder what teachers think and do when they see something a bit more undefined like possible evidence of self injury. The cutter might be suicidal, and though research is sketchy and thin, those who self identify as self injurers by and large are not suicidal, which probably means different emotional issues.
Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into a discussion on SI, but I thought it'd be valuable to add to this thread in particular, as it is a problem long since unrealized that is slowly seeing the light of day.
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posted
To be honest, I would take your expression of suicide interest as indicative of the cutting, and hopefully, a good psychiatrist would have figured this out.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Great advice from all sides. A good counselor will take any talk of self-harm seriously. If a middle school child says this type of thing, whether they "mean it" or not, it is still a sign of emotional disturbance, or should be treated as such.
As for secrets, be honest with the kids at the start. You can't keep secrets. What you CAN do is be the first contact person, and let the students know that. Let them know the kinds of things you have to report, but also let them know that they can tell you first, and that you will get them to the people who can help them.
What is more frightening to me are the children who DON"T tell about their fears, or about abuse that is happening to them. I always have a big talk about "tattling." Children are incredibly loyal to their peers.
And just remember what we say in the fifth grade, about teaching in general:
"You can't make this "stuff" up."
Really, you can't.
What novelist would ever write a teacher saying, "So-and-s0, you need to STOP EATING your binder."
When people ask me who my heroes are, my answer comes quickly: my students. Some children experience more sadness, violence, and loss by the age of ten than many adults experience in a lifetime. Your heart will break a million times over, Belle, but it will just make it bigger.
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posted
In this thread, I strongly agree with what Rabbit has said. I think this girl does need help, but it may not be directly for the problem she is able to talk about.
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posted
Just as an update, my friend said the other day the girl has not been back to talk to her privately again. She still sees her in class, but the child does not seek her out to talk to her alone anymore. She doesn't know whether to take that as a positive or negative.
She did note that the girl made many claims that turned out not to be true, both to her and to her friends. Stuff like she was going to be moving away, that her Dad was going to come get her and take her to live somewhere else, etc.
I hope whatever problems she's having, she will get some kind of help. She sounds like a troubled young girl, and I feel for her.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Phanto: To be honest, I would take your expression of suicide interest as indicative of the cutting, and hopefully, a good psychiatrist would have figured this out.
You mean that the self injury was a symptom of suicidal intent?
Given the surface details, I'd agree with you, but for a teacher or third party it'd be impossible to tell other than with surface deteails, and they'd all be 100% correct to react as seriously as possible. Digging deeper I think you'd find something just as serious, but totally different, and thus I'd disagree with the connection. But then I have the benefit of a decade of introspection and hindsight. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
To answer your earlier question: I try to keep an eye out for cutting. A few years ago one of my students wrote some really good poems about cutting (it feels weird to call them good, but they were: she talked about "strawberry slices") & I gave the poems to the guidance counselor (and gave the girl credit, too).
Last year several of our students were erasing...a milder variant on cutting, or maybe a gateway. It was scary to see the kids who were involved. Some I wasn't surprised by, and others shocked me. Fortunately they're still young enough to narc on each other, which means we found out (and guidance could talk to) some of the kids we wouldn't normally have expected to be involved.
There's a fairly recent novel called _Cut_ that (among lots of other things) has helped to bring attention to the behavior and its motivations.
BTW, congratulations on NOT, Lyrhawn.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I've seen a slightly higher profile on cutting in recent years. It has happened to a few characters on different shows over the years. But most of what I've seen seems to be emotionally troubled girls, most with eating disorders, which is the stereotype for sure, and there's an extreme amount of truth to it, but there's so much more to it out there.
posted
Erasing is rubbing an eraser on the skin hard and fast enough that the friction wears away the skin.
_Cut_ focuses on a teenage girl in a psychiatric facility for cutting. It uses flashbacks to show how she got started cutting, and why she did it. It does a good job of building sympathy for her so that the reader understands why she cuts, instead of just thinking it's weird.
As for there being more to it than ED teenage girls...no kidding, and I hope that the different manifestations and motivations become more widely known so we can recognize and help more people. (My own first exposure to it was in junior high, and involved a bright and successful boy--one of the much older guys on the swim team had odd parallel marks on his upper arms, & his sister told us he cut himself. I am flabbergasted now that he could be on the *swim* *team* and no adult seemed to notice or do anything about it.)
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
the whole cutting thing is just so weird. I realize that these kinds of behaviors have been around since humans have been being crazy, but...I didn't know ANYBODY who did this stuff when I was in high school/college/whatever. I was born in '75. I know a LOT of people born in the early/mid '80s who do this or have done this...WTF happened so suddenly?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Well to be a little fair to adults, knowledge of the problem is extremely limited, and I'd bet you were in Junior High what, a decade ago? Knowledge about it was even harder to come by then. Chances are if he had a problem and someone noticed and asked, and he didn't want them to know he'd lie, and since most people don't know about it, they'd be extremely willing to believe an excuse, because who assumes that kid is a self injurer when a much more plausible suggestion is staring them in the face? It just sounds to weird to people with no experience with it.
I was never on the swim team, but whenever I found myself in a situation where I didn't want to tell people the truth, I'd always lie, and no one ever even batted an eyelash at me. It's one of those instances where a lie sounds much more belieable than the truth.
Steve -
If I had to guess? You may have known people who did it, but you never found out. I don't think it's suddenly a problem, I think people are suddenly realizing that it has ALWAYS been a problem. Even in 2007, statistics are largely guesswork, as therapists are just starting to do studies and really look at the problem. It used to be mistaken for suicidal behavior, but now psychiatrists and psychologists realize that isn't automatically the case, and it's an entirely separate issue. It's easier to come up with statistics on girls with ED, because they're treated more often now, but non-ED girls and all boys are hard to get numbers on, because they rarely if ever seek treatment for the problem.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I just found out that a family member on my husband's side of the family has been taken to the hospital for cutting. She cut her wrist so deeply it required stitches.
I feel so helpless. We don't know this girl very well, having only met her in person a few times, but still she's part of my extended family and she's almost the exact age of my oldest daughter.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I hope your family can get her the appropriate help for her to solve her problem. It could be a long hard fight, but a loving family will make it easier.
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She sounds like a troubled young girl, and I feel for her.
