My sister's twins are having their Bnei Mitzvah (that's the plural) in the middle of October. They're Conservative (not to be confused with conservative), which is a liberal movement that doesn't keep all of Jewish law, and has modified most of the part that they do keep in ways that aren't recognized by Orthodox Jews.
My sister... I love her dearly, and she's one of the sweetest people I know, but even for a Conservative Jew, she knows very little about Jewish stuff. She knows that we keep kosher, and that some of our cousins and one aunt and uncle keep kosher. So she arranged for the Friday night dinner at her synagogue to be done by a kosher caterer.
(And when she told me that about 20 minutes ago, I winced, because I could see what was coming.)
Of course, the caterer isn't under Orthodox rabbinic supervision, because Conservative synagogues don't really care about that. So she just got off the phone with our aunt, who said that they wouldn't be able to eat there. And she called me to try and figure out what to do.
It was a helluva lot easier back in the early 80s when I was just getting religious and wasn't worried about stepping on toes.
It's way too late for her to switch caterers. So she's going to have to bring in meals for all us kosher folk from another caterer. And then the party is Saturday night, and Shabbat doesn't end until almost 7. And she can't bring the meals to the restaurant when it's still Shabbat, so either they have to be willing to hold on to them from Friday onwards, or I'm going to have to pick them up from somewhere and bring them when I go. More likely the latter.
And she's only doing this for family reasons. As far as she's concerned, Judaism is about culture and life cycle events. The idea of actually allowing it to inconvenience ones life seems bizarre to her. But it honestly blows me away that she thought a Conservative caterer would be okay. Not that I can say that to her. I mean, the Friday night "services" they're going to be having are going to have musical instruments. That's far out even by Conservative standards.
She said that while she knows it's dumb, she feels like there's a judgement being made here. I told her that it wasn't dumb, and that there's definitely a judgement being made. That it's not directed at her, but at the movement, but that doesn't make her feel any better. And it's her movement that I'm really angry at. I grew up in that movement, and it simply doesn't occur to them the damage they do by misinforming people. Back in the early 20th century, when they really thought that Orthodox Jews were simply going to die out, I can maybe understand what they thought they were doing, but now I'm just so pissed at them.
quote:My sister's twins are having their Bnei Mitzvah (that the plural)
I don't know why, but a missing *s* in the word, "that's" made this line funny to me for some reason.
Maybe it's just that s makes so many words plural.
There's some great proverbs about soft answers turning away wrath Lisa, at least you are not throwing all this in your sisters face. Just try to set a good example. I doubt you can make your sister take Judaism as seriously as you do by being incensed about all this. But it is important to keep letting your sister know this kind of thing is insulting to you.
It's the only way my friends ever accepted that I actually believed the things I said I did, and that I was not just blowing smoke.
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Question: Does everything have to be kosher? What I mean is, I know there are certain food restrictions and guidelines for preparation, but does it cover every kind of food?
Could you get by, for example, with rice and dinner rolls and a vegetable medley? (Those are just the first three foods that popped into this former-Catholic's head that might not need to be prepared specially to be kosher. I won't be surprised if I'm wrong.)
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: I know there are certain food restrictions and guidelines for preparation, but does it cover every kind of food?
Other than raw fruits and vegetables, yes. (And if those have ben cut or otherwise prepared, they can be an issue too.)
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Could you get by, for example, with rice and dinner rolls and a vegetable medley?
No, no way, and definitely not if it's cooked vegetables.
Sorry, Lisa. My non-Orthodox relatives at least know the rules -- or know enough not to make arrangements without checking with us religious-fanatic types FIRST.
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Have you consulted your Rav for advice? That's probably where I'd start. It might be that he'll OK some of the food from this caterer. Just because it doesn't have Orthodox supervision doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be trayf.
And if he says "absolutely not", you can discuss with your Rav and your family what to do. Me, I'd be comfortable (and I actually have done this) attending the service and the reception, but not eating the food. I didn't make a big deal of it, by announcing that the food wasn't kosher, or by requesting something special. I just showed up, sat at the table, and talked and had a good time, and didn't eat.
Most people didn't say anything about it, except a couple who were at the same table, and to them I answered (honestly) that I ate before I came, and I wasn't really hungry.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Me, I'd be comfortable (and I actually have done this) attending the service and the reception, but not eating the food.
I've done this too, actually.
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quote:My sister's twins are having their Bnei Mitzvah (that the plural)
I don't know why, but a missing *s* in the word, "that's" made this line funny to me for some reason.
Fixed.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: There's some great proverbs about soft answers turning away wrath Lisa, at least you are not throwing all this in your sisters face. Just try to set a good example. I doubt you can make your sister take Judaism as seriously as you do by being incensed about all this. But it is important to keep letting your sister know this kind of thing is insulting to you.
It's not insulting to me, though. I feel sorry for her. God willing, none of her kids will marry out, but if it happens, she's going to be so surprised. And I'm not going to be at all.
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: Question: Does everything have to be kosher? What I mean is, I know there are certain food restrictions and guidelines for preparation, but does it cover every kind of food?
Could you get by, for example, with rice and dinner rolls and a vegetable medley?
Anything that's cooked in something that non-kosher food was cooked in is non-kosher. And rice needs to be checked for bugs anyway. And dinner rolls could have shortening from non-kosher animals in them, aside from being baked in the same ovens that stuff with ham and such were baked in.
Raw veggies would probably be okay. Just not particularly enjoyable.
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Lisa, as a practicing Conservative Jew, I take exception with many of your statements. Even though you grew up Conservative, I don't think you know enough about every single Conservative shul or family to make the kind of sweeping statements you have posted. For example, I've never even heard of a Conservative shul allowing musical instruments on Shabbat. Mine certainly doesn't. And I always arrange for Orthodox hospitality when I have Orthodox guests and I've never had any kind problem like the one you're describing with your sister.
quote: but even for a Conservative Jew, she knows very little about Jewish stuff.
I assume the implication is that Conservative know very little about "Jewish stuff." The implication that I'm ignorant about my religion is very hurtful.
quote:Of course, the caterer isn't under Orthodox rabbinic supervision, because Conservative synagogues don't really care about that.
WRONG! My shul does and so do I.
quote: I grew up in that movement, and it simply doesn't occur to them the damage they do by misinforming people.
I don't think it occurs to you that your anger is doing a great deal of damage. I understand that you are upset and want to vent, but do you understand that your harsh and insulting words are hurtful to the Conservative people on this forum? Perhaps you'd inspire Conservatives to become more frum if you were less angry and condescending. Also, your entire post sounds a lot like lashon ha-ra to me.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Have you consulted your Rav for advice? That's probably where I'd start. It might be that he'll OK some of the food from this caterer. Just because it doesn't have Orthodox supervision doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be trayf.
True, but it's not just me. My aunt and uncle would have to do their own checking, and so would my cousin and her husband, and he's a total tool, just generally, so there's no chance he'd ever do anything to make things easier.
One rav I spoke with once said you shouldn't go along with having special food at such thing. Rather, you should just not eat there. Because getting special meals and eating them there implies that you're okay with your relatives eating their treif. I agree with that in principle, but in practice, I'm not going to do that.
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: And if he says "absolutely not", you can discuss with your Rav and your family what to do. Me, I'd be comfortable (and I actually have done this) attending the service and the reception, but not eating the food. I didn't make a big deal of it, by announcing that the food wasn't kosher, or by requesting something special. I just showed up, sat at the table, and talked and had a good time, and didn't eat.
That's probably the best idea. But you have to look at it from my sister's position. To her, that'd be extremely ungracious. And that's the thing. She's really trying to do the right thing. The only reason she got the "kosher" catering in the first place was to accomodate those of us who keep kosher. It totally sucks for her that it was a kind of wasted effort.
And rivka, yeah, I wish she'd checked with me. Maybe next year she will.
Oh, this is kind of funny. She was looking around for kosher caterers because of this, and she found one that said it was under Kof-K supervision. She asked me what "K of K" supervision was. I couldn't figure out what on earth she was talking about until I saw it printed.
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posted
A month and a half does not seem like too late to change caterers to me, unless it's a particularly busy time of year for catering.
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: Lisa, as a practicing Conservative Jew, I take exception with many of your statements. Even though you grew up Conservative, I don't think you know enough about every single Conservative shul or family to make the kind of sweeping statements you have posted. For example, I've never even heard of a Conservative shul allowing musical instruments on Shabbat. Mine certainly doesn't.
We've been through this before. You need to get out more, is all. I've been to USCJ synagogues that play organs on Shabbat morning. You obviously have no idea what your movement will permit. I'm glad that the specific shul you go to has a more traditional perspective, observance-wise. That's great. But if the particular choices of your shul are what make you think that the Conservative movement is something it isn't, then, like I said, you need to get out more. Because you're sorely misinformed.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: And I always arrange for Orthodox hospitality when I have Orthodox guests and I've never had any kind problem like the one you're describing with your sister.
I applaud you, then. So if I'm understanding you, you think that all Conservative Jews are like you and all Conservative synagogues are like the one you go to. And you folks call us provincial?
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M:
quote: but even for a Conservative Jew, she knows very little about Jewish stuff.
I assume the implication is that Conservative know very little about "Jewish stuff." The implication that I'm ignorant about my religion is very hurtful.
Wah. I'd take that a lot more seriously if it wasn't so obviously a rhetorical device. The vast majority of the Conservative movement is utterly ignorant of Judaism in any meaningful way. Yes, there are exceptions. There's a group near where I live called the Egalitarian Minyan of West Rogers Park. They are incredibly well educated by Conservative standards. Also, they're above average in observance.
When Neil Gilman (from JTS) came to speak at the Egal Minyan's 25th anniversary shabbaton a few years back, he asked the guy who picked him up from the airport around what percentage of the membership keeps kosher. He always does this when he goes to speak at Conservative synagogues, because it gives him a baseline idea of who he's talking to. Usually, he told us, the answer is 10-15%. When he found out that probably 85% of the Egal Minyan keeps kosher to some extent, and that maybe 60% of the membership actually only buys things with a hechsher, he was absolutely stunned.
So fine, Mrs. M. You know your synagogue, and you know your community, and you know yourself. But clearly you don't know your movement.
You object to an implication that you're ignorant about your religion. I will say that you are, in point of fact, ignorant about your movement. You're unaware of the simple fact that most Conservative Jews don't keep kosher in any way whatsoever. You're unaware of the fact that many synagogues that are members of the USCJ use musical instruments during their Shabbat services. You're unaware that most Conservative synagogues couldn't really care less about kashrut except in the most symbolic way. You're probably unaware of the fact that upwards of 90% of members of Conservative synagogues, if asked about "taharat ha-mishpacha" wouldn't even know what the words mean, and would be horrified at the idea that anyone keeps that group of mitzvot in this day and age.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M:
quote:Of course, the caterer isn't under Orthodox rabbinic supervision, because Conservative synagogues don't really care about that.
WRONG! My shul does and so do I.
Again, I applaud you. You're a rarity.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M:
quote: I grew up in that movement, and it simply doesn't occur to them the damage they do by misinforming people.
I don't think it occurs to you that your anger is doing a great deal of damage. I understand that you are upset and want to vent, but do you understand that your harsh and insulting words are hurtful to the Conservative people on this forum? Perhaps you'd inspire Conservatives to become more frum if you were less angry and condescending.
Unlikely. On the contrary, maybe hearing truths that you prefer to avoid will help you wake up.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: A month and a half does not seem like too late to change caterers to me, unless it's a particularly busy time of year for catering.
<shrug> Honestly, I wouldn't presume to guess. I made a comment about "other than changing caterers", and she said it was too late for that. I haven't done this kind of shindig myself, so I can't really second-guess her about it.
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posted
She may have already put down a large non-refundable deposit, which would make it "too late" in this specific case.
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Could be. And she's spending enough on this already. The mixup about the kosher catering... never mind the extra cost for everyone, it's going to be probably another $2-3K for the real kosher meals now.
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quote: I don't think it occurs to you that your anger is doing a great deal of damage. I understand that you are upset and want to vent, but do you understand that your harsh and insulting words are hurtful to the Conservative people on this forum? Perhaps you'd inspire Conservatives to become more frum if you were less angry and condescending.
Unlikely. On the contrary, maybe hearing truths that you prefer to avoid will help you wake up.
I don't know about that "logic"....you have been told on may occasions, by many people, of many different religions, that you are angry, disdainful, arrogant, dismissive, and even abusive to others on a fairly regular basis. If someone is being abusive to you, then sometimes it pays to draw a clear line in the sand....but you seem to be standing on that line a lot of the time.
I have yet to see YOU being affected by hearing "truths you prefer to avoid", nor have I seen that make any sort of dent in the way you talk to other people.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them wrong...and even if they are wrong, acting badly doesn't make you any more right.
I like reading what most people have to say about their religion. I knew a little bit about Judaism before I started following the religious threads here at Hatrack....more than most Americans (who aren't themselves Jewish, of course) perhaps, but over all I was fairly ignorant.
Reading a lot of these thread has made me go out and ask people I know, in a general, non-threating manner, about their own religious views/beliefs. As a result, I know a lot more amount a number of religions....Mormon and Judaism mostly....than I ever did before.
But I have never heard being motivated by having someone speak to them the way you speak to others here. Not in a positive way, at least.
As far as your situation with this party....I am sorry it has turned out to be such a pain. I hope it all works out. I found it a bit insulting to heard anyone else's religious beliefs referred to as "dumb", and I feel for you as far as that goes.
Perhaps the best things, if nothing else works out, would be to eat somewhere else first, and just go for the celebration. While I understand what your Rav meant about condoning others actions, I think your approach is better. They make their own choices, same as you.
posted
Lisa, I think I see where we have a fundamental disagreement that causes us to go around in circles. You appear to see the USCJ as one and the same as the Conservative movement and I do not. Most of the shuls I've attended regularly (in 5 states) have been unaffiliated and frum. This does not mean that they aren't Conservative - it means that they do not agree wtih the direction the USCJ is taking. I still feel that your knowledge of the USCJ is not absolute.
quote:So if I'm understanding you, you think that all Conservative Jews are like you and all Conservative synagogues are like the one you go to.
Not at all. I was simply saying that not all Conservative shuls are like the ones you are familiar with. You asserted absolute knowledge and I wanted you to know that your experiences are not universal to all Conservative Jews.
quote:And you folks call us provincial?
I understand this is rhetorical, but I never have. Nor have I heard anyone in my shuls do so.
The shul we belong to now is not nearly as frum as I'd prefer. Instead of leaving in anger and bitterness, I have chosen to stay and set an example. If women see that I cover my hair in the shul, maybe they will too. If people see that I know how to daven, maybe it will inspire them to learn how to daven. If people hear me talking about halacha and mitzvot, maybe they'll be inspired to begin to learn themselves. My husband grew up in a very secular family. When we were engaged, I went to kallah class and met regularly with our rabbi. He told me that if I wanted Andrew to become frum, I should do it gradually and without negativity. Each year I pick a goal for our family. We now attend shul together regularly, Andrew knows how to daven and wears a tallis, and we say Tehillim together. Every year our family becomes more frum in a way that is a joy for us all.
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