posted
Speaking from experience, the best thing you can do to support her is to remind her that there is only a short time until she can leave home. You should treat her lovingly and kindly and express how much you love her. Believe me, in a family like the one you described, she will be in desperate need of kindness. As for T.C., she should ask around and post in the newspaper for someone to purchase her pony. There are plenty of people who would buy a good natured pony for their children, or barns looking for school horses for beginning riders. When you return home, give her hugs, listen to her, sympathize with her, remind her that what her parents say is not true and that other people love her. When you're at college, write to her and do as much. To deal with her family, just survive them. Don't try to fix them, they'll only get worse. Accept that they are dysfunctional and wait for them to calm down and forget what they shout when they're agitated. Silence or very few, neutral words are generally the best way to make it through the yelling.
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
If I were you, I'd solve the (little) ring problem by taking it back from her and holding onto it until she can move out. It will still be hers, but it won't cause her to be further punished in the meantime.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Does it strike anyone else as odd that this girl's parents got her a damn pony in the first place? I guess the moral of the story is that you should never get your daughter a pony. I'm only glad that these freaking morons are finally realizing what kind of child they've raised.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Hey Saephon, how are things going? I hope that last post didn't scare you off. I'm reasonably sure the vast majority of people here are really interested in helping and being supportive. So ... any good news? Bad news? Or no news?
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Survivor: Does it strike anyone else as odd that this girl's parents got her a damn pony in the first place? I guess the moral of the story is that you should never get your daughter a pony. I'm only glad that these freaking morons are finally realizing what kind of child they've raised.
Jackass.
And I am not talking about the parents, just to be clear.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
That isn't helping, Kwea, and Papa Moose has to run around on a Sunday to clean this all up. Whistling does enough.
Could you please edit yourself not to be name-calling, so that Papa Moose has a little less to deal with on a day he should be spending with his family? Call it rude, call it obnoxious, call it whatever. Don't call names, though, and don't use un-family-friendly words. Please! Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Okay, leaving any "profanity" aside, does anyone else think the described situation a little strange?
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Survivor- No, not really. Plenty of abusive parents behave in completely incomprehensible ways. One of my friends is dating a girl who has every material thing a person could want. However, when her mother found the letters my friend had written her (nothing dirty, just letters) and the girl asked for them back, her mother dragged her by the hair down the hallway to her room and started beating her.
Plenty of abusive parents want everything to look good. They want to look like perfect parents. So they live in nice houses, and their kids have every material desire fulfilled. So everyone thinks, "oh what great parents". While behind closed doors, they are horribly abusive.
I'm afraid I'm not being very eloquent, perhaps someone else will explain this better than I am.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
*attempts* It's really important to abusive people that they be seen as good human beings. I think it's a way for them to justify their actions. It's also a way for them to gain even more control over the people they're abusing.
posted
blacwolve, I think you explained yourself very well.
My parents, for example, found it to be extremely important to have the right image. In front of other people, they acted kind and decent. In private, it was hell.
My mother is still caught up in the whole "we must appear to be a close family" crap. It's gotta look perfect. In reality, I disowned them over a decade ago and won't have anything to do with them ever again. They won't admit that to anyone else. They still want to know details of my life. They still want in. But there was never any amount of love, kindness, concern, caring. I never mattered. It was all about them, them, them, and what could I do to make their lives better.
My mother wants to be in communication with me not because she loves me but because it makes her look better.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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But does any of this have the slightest bit to do with the situation under discussion here?
Sure, I suffered moderate to severe abuse from one of my parents. Beatings and death threats and stuff like that. So maybe that makes me unable to see anything terrible here...other than a 19 year old guy doing an underaged girl, that is.
[Altered profanity. --PJ]
[ January 29, 2007, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I'm sorry for double posting, but I re-read Saephon's posts a bit more carefully to try and determine what you were all seeing in them that I wasn't...I've been guilty of wavering on the whole statutory rape thing from time to time...of course I think it's terrible, but I usually think that "rape" should only refer to a physically violent sexual assault.
But this...I honestly want to take a knife to this guy's jewels. Can't any of you hear the story he's telling? And he sees so little wrong with this...maybe that's what has you all thinking that he must be a good guy, that he doesn't believe he's doing anything bad.
This girl...maybe she's 17 by now. That's half my age. Perhaps that's just causing me to overreact because I'm desperate to deny that I'm a broken-down old man or something. There is exactly one person causing pain and regret in her life that will follow her for years--decades--to come, and he's a member of this "community" of yours.
Why will you turn a blind eye to this?
[ January 29, 2007, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Survivor: Ah, I so look forward to seeing y'all in Hell.
What on earth is this for?
quote:Originally posted by Survivor: Does it strike anyone else as odd that this girl's parents got her a damn pony in the first place? I guess the moral of the story is that you should never get your daughter a pony. I'm only glad that these freaking morons are finally realizing what kind of child they've raised.
What kind of child do you think they raised? And why would that be the moral of the story?
quote:Originally posted by Survivor: Hmm...okay.
But does any of this have the slightest bit to do with the situation under discussion here?
Sure, I suffered moderate to severe abuse from one of my parents. Beatings and death threats and stuff like that. So maybe that makes me unable to see anything terrible here...
We were discussing patterns of behavior in abusive parents. Was that not sufficiently clear for you?
quote:Originally posted by Survivor: other than a 19 year old guy doing an underaged girl, that is.
quote:Originally posted by Survivor: I've been guilty of wavering on the whole statutory rape thing from time to time...of course I think it's terrible, but I usually think that "rape" should only refer to a physically violent sexual assault.
But this...I honestly want to take a knife to this guy's jewels. Can't any of you hear the story he's telling? And he sees so little wrong with this...maybe that's what has you all thinking that he must be a good guy, that he doesn't believe he's doing anything bad.
This girl...maybe she's 17 by now. That's half my age. Perhaps that's just causing me to overreact because I'm desperate to deny that I'm a broken-down old man or something. There is exactly one person causing pain and regret in her life that will follow her for years--decades--to come, and he's a member of this "community" of yours.
Please point out exactly what Saephon said that indicates that they're having sex. From where I'm sitting, I see nothing indicating sexual activity is taking place. They may be - I have no idea. But really, that's the point. We don't know.
Accusing him of being a rapist based on what's posted in this thread is, well, rude and uncalled for.
But then, given other things you've said in this thread, this isn't surprising behavior from you.
Using foul language is not necessary. Neither is accusing someone of statutory rape based on the zero evidence in this thread.
Is this a game to you? Are you trying to see how destructive you can be here? Are you a troublemaker? A troll? From where I'm sitting, that's the evidence I'm seeing so far.
quote:This girl...maybe she's 17 by now. That's half my age.
From first post:
quote:I'm nearly 19 years old
Okay, so you, some random person, is twice as old as the girlfriend of some other random person. How is this relevant?
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Hey survivor if at any point you actually want to try to help the situation, that would be cool too.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Also, even if they were having sex, the age of consent is 17 or less in many states. On top of that, they clearly don't have much of an age difference. So this is a terrible thing why, exactly?
posted
The only thing that would help is for Saephon to realize that he's the primary stressor on this girl. What he can do to make things better...none of us can know that till Saephon is willing to bring a more honest assessment to the table.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Survivor, whether or not folks agree with your take, it's at least in some way reasonable (if inconsiderate, depending) to posit, if you can do so without a personal attack (perhaps ask a question rather than state the claim?). But please cut out the profanity, leetspeak or not.
quote:The only thing that would help is for Saephon to realize that he's the primary stressor on this girl.
Yeah, man. You are a manly Internet man, who does not even have to afford the possibility that her parents may be the wrongdoers, and not Saephon. What a great way to bypass any inconvenient ambiguities! You don't ask questions, you just point fingers.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Actually, I did ask a question. It was answered in such a way as to fully justify some finger-pointing.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Oh, and sorry about the obscenity (as if it's possible to profane that particular concept, sheesh). It was an unwise experiment. Probably not a very meaningful one either.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Survivor- You came into a thread in which a guy talks about how his girlfriend is undergoing abuse from her parents. You automatically assume that he's the problem, without ever saying anything to justify that assumption. Along the way you accuse him of being a rapist, again with nothing to back it up.
This is all after behaving like a troll for several days as an "experiment".
Why would you think people are going to respond well to that?
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Survivor, you claim to be an ascetic, of the taoist type, but you do not fit the bill. You do not follow the way, you are causing turbulence instead of averting it. One does not need to experiment with being a troll, because one already knows what will happen if they are pulling off that kind of bull.
By the way, this guy's treatment and correspondence with the girl is definitely a positive. A stressor is not a positive that causes another person to become angry at the person receiving the positive, the one being angry is the stressor.
BTW, you need to research the taoist meaning of balance.
Saephon, keep it up, and do not think you are hurting her by providing compassion. Help her with college apps or other items that will help her achieve independence.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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What, exactly, about her parents' behavior is abusive? Even taking Saephon at his word, which I'm not inclined do. What about the situation indicates that he is not the problem?
Saephon, feel free to correct me. We're all going off of your words and nothing else here. Tell us more about these "therapy support groups" her parents have taken her to which are actually some kind of abuser justification system. Make it clear why it's unusual for you to "just snuggle" with her at her parents' home. Help me to understand why it is that every objective indication in your posts seems to suggest that she really would be better off in every way if you would just leave her alone for a few years.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Ok, I gave you the benefit of a doubt. You choose not to take it. I'm really sorry that Saephon is being subjected to your bile; but I'm no long going to give you the attention you clearly crave.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Ok maybe I'm just crazy but how does her being almost 17 and him 19 have anything to do with him causeing her stress and whatnot (regadless of if sex is involved or not). In a year whn shes basickly 18 and hes 20 will the ages still be what mnakes you think theres a problem? He is trying to help her and be supportive and he's in the wrong? The only propblem I see here is that you jump to the conclusion that it's all his fault casue hes over 18 and shes under. As for the statutory that is not even an issue for him to have to worry about cause as was said in most state 16 or 17 is consinting age and also to cover situations where one person is under ager and another is barely over atleast some states also have it where if your within like 3 to 4 years age differance it's considerd leagl as well.
Posts: 38 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: What, exactly, about her parents' behavior is abusive? Even taking Saephon at his word, which I'm not inclined do. What about the situation indicates that he is not the problem?
It's amusing to see this because you're answering your own question. All we have to know each other by here are words. Basically on an internet forum without any other information you have to assume that people are behaving and being truthful. It's called an honest and good faith discussion. I know it's probably beyond comprehension. But people here are actually trying to believe that people are telling the truth as they see/understand it.
posted
I just figured if it got asked in a slightly differnt way he might respond.
As for advice for Saephon haveing been in a simular situation all I can say is continue what you have and them same things MOST people here have said.
Posts: 38 | Registered: Nov 2006
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I already said that I think breaking things off for a few years would be a sensible strategy. And yes, it will almost certainly make an amazing difference in her level of maturity and her parents willingness to let her date him.
The fact that this is technically legal in some states doesn't affect the basic problem. Taking slaves and executing disobediant females are both legal in some places, that doesn't mean I'll approve of either.
The more problematical issue is that you all seem to be willing to uncritically condemn this girl's parents and say that continuing the destructive behavior pattern that has, by his own account, initiated the stress she's under, is a good thing. You are setting her up for a disaster of the first order, and none of you seem to recognize this possibility.
Can you at least consider the fact that this teenaged angst might have more to do with her age than with any actual wrong-doing on the part of her parents? Storm Saxon said something very wise which all of you could have heeded. It's hard to give good advice without knowing both sides of the story. You all could have at least asked the obvious questions.
Why did her parents feel more justified in treating her this way after attending therapy? What kind of upbringing made her appalled at the notion of having to pay for her own pet's upkeep or sell it? Why would both of them feel comfortable enough to go to her parent's house to "just snuggle" in front of the fireplace and exchange gifts? Is the parents' concern about the effect of her behavior on her behaviorally challenged younger brother totally unjustified?
And you didn't, and I couldn't be bothered with this place at the time, and probably a young girl has missed out on a chance to reconcile with her parents at the cost of simply cooling off things with her boyfriend for a couple of years. I know that seems like an eternity to most teenagers, but that's because those couple of years can change damn near everything.
I'm not here to save anyone, and you're all quite right to feel uncomfortable with me. But don't let your hatred blind you. Or, well, don't let it make you blinder.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Ok I'll admit there is a possablity that it's as you say and has nothing to do with the parents. But see the info we have doesn't point to that and for some strange reason thats the conclusion you jumped to and seem unwilling to waver from. AS for the two of them at her parents by a fire, maybe her parents were out and since hes off to collage, couldn't very well ask who ever he was staying with to leave so he could have that time.
Aslo I see at no point was she appalled at haveing to pay her pony upkeep were the problem is, from the way I understand it to be said is they bought it for her knowinig they would have to pay for the upkeep, but now that things are going in a way they don't like, it's all up to her. Btu this is all my opinion ands you can do with it as you please, and I will do with your's as I please(which is think it means you have some problems to deal with to make you see the worst in a situatuation, and for the most part ignore it). Cause as I've been told opinions are like @@@holes everyone has one, wheter we like it or not.
Posts: 38 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Wow. I haven't been here in a long time....to be honest, I feel uncomfortable talking about my situation sometimes. But there was an incident today that made my girlfriend very upset, so I got the urge to check this thread I had forgotten about....I have a lot to say. Um, where to begin.
Firstly, not much has changed. About a week ago, we almost broke up. It was late at night, and though she really didn't want to, my girlfriend told me she was tired of her parents hating her and being disappointed in her, and that it would never be okay until we stopped dating. So she said she had no choice. Then only two hours later, she called me crying, recounting for me how her mom came in to see what was the matter, and when my girlfriend told her how she cried and went through so much pain to make her mom happy, her mom just said "Oh, that's all? Well good, I'm glad you got rid of him." And then left to go to bed. So basically....she pleaded for me to take her back, telling me that I loved her and did things for her that her mom would never do.
Um so we're together right now, to my great happiness. Though today, her mom saw her IMing me online, and told her that if she didn't break up with me again, she'd "make" her. Even threatened to send her to boarding school to get her "fixed." I know a lot of people tend to assume that teenage angst is behind most problems and complains....but I pray that more people will listen with open hearts and minds. It's not always common drama behind the tears. My girlfriend and I both share the experience of having our concerns dismissed by adults who believed we didn't know any better.
Um...one more thing I think. I...GUESS...I can see where one or two of you might have gotten the impression that I'm being dishonest or am the bad factor in my girlfriend's life...I blame myself for being vague sometimes, in the interests of being confidential. And i'm simply embarrassed being so open sometimes.
But....It really did hurt to read some of the stuff I did just now. I mean...rape? We've never done anything illegal, except stay out past her curfew one time. And I love my lady so much, I'd never do something to harm her. All I want is to protect her from the people and things I think are hurting her most in life. And I listen to what she says, I try my best not to presume upon what I THINK is damaging in her life. So yeah, I'm still a little bit shocked. But this is after all an online forum, and you really don't know me. I can't expect anyone to trust or think I'm a good person without meeting me, but I really appreciate those who do. I promise I give that same good faith to all of you in full.
But I don't want to end this on a bad note. The two of us are trying our best...right now she's pretty depressed though. Said she's "got nearly no hope left". But I won't give up on this; I care so much about her....I might stop talking about this though.
I need to find someone, a counselor maybe, who can really help us take steps to deal with this. The advice and support here has been great, I can always count on Hatrackers to listen with sincerity, and I hope I've been able to do the same for all of you. But at this rate, she's still got to live in that house for a year. And we've decided it's almost certain that even when I'm not in the equation, her family hurts her.
Thanks everyone. I wish everyone the happiest Posts: 349 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
May I, again, suggest a teen crisis line? They will have local resources to help your girlfriend.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I don't know how to judge the seriousness of the situation, or what's really going on with you two. But I will offer this piece of advice. If you really love this girl, you would want to her safety and health and happiness to be the most important thing ever. Above your own happiness and personal wants. If this girl is really having this kind of abuse, you need to do what's best for her. Including getting her out of that situation. Even if it means your relationship is jepordized or compromised or put on hold or whatever. You need to get someone in authority to help this girl out, get her out of that enviornment, do whatever you can. Even if it's not the best thing for you. This girl is going to have problems for years to come and she needs to get out of that house as soon as possible.
Do what's best for HER. Not you, or the both of you.
Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I wasn't a regular here when this topic first started so I'm just now seeing it. I'm appalled to see where it has gone. Even if you are a stress factor in your girlfriend's life, the accusations were completely out of line.
I'm sorry you and she are in such a tough situation.
It's hard to judge the seriousness of a situation over the internet. I know that a lot of teenagers have trouble with their parents. I did. Sometimes I thought they hated me and they didn't always have the most encouraging things to say to me. It got pretty heated sometimes. I actually felt pretty hopeless and got depressed -- even suicidal. I did come to understand (I wish they had done more to help me understand sooner) that they cared -- they just weren't always good at showing that.
Sixteen going on seventeen is pretty young (probably doesn't seem that way to you ) and most people change a LOT in their late teens and early twenties. You may not even recognize her at the end of it all, personality-wise.
Sometimes parents don't know how to deal with teenagers. Scratch that -- a LOT of times parents don't know how to deal with teenagers. It's a confusing transition time in a person's life and parents don't always know when to lay down the law and when to let go and let their children make their own mistakes. Even well-meaning parents can say hurtful things -- either out of frustration or thinking that they can scare or bully their children into listening.
It is clear that some of the things your girlfriend's parents have said are out of line. The cussing is out of line. The threats to put her pony to sleep are out of line. (They bought it -- they need to take care of it.) The total lack of compassion for her feelings when she temporarily broke up with you was out of line.
Having suffered from depression in my life, I can totally understand and sympathize with her if she is feeling that way right now. It can be very serious. If she feels that way, it doesn't matter what her parents intend or what they are trying to do (and for all I know they really are just hateful people), she needs help. When depression is in your life, you are at risk for all kinds of problems -- even suicide (I pray she's not there). It really isn't a good time to be making serious decisions. It's a time to get help and get healed. If you can convince her to seek out that help, it will be the best thing you can do for her.
Like I said, it is hard to judge the seriousness of these situations over the net. I don't know how depressed your girlfriend is or what kind of situation she may be in. There is help to be had, even for teens who can't trust their parents. That is why the teen crisis lines are there. Good luck to both of you.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I'm sorry to see it's still bad, Saephon. If she's anything like me, your girlfriend's probably afraid to say anything to anyone with vague, teen drama worries. Encourage her to keep a journal of the things her parents do and say. That way she has something she can point to when she does go to a counselor or pastor or family member.
Just having someone assure her she isn't crazy or overreacting will probably go a long way to making her feel better.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Let me rephrase that. You guys need to accept professional help, from real therapists and counselors.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I felt the same way about my boyfriend when I was 16... ... ... ... So having thought on this a minute, I'm sad everyone's bias against Survivor has clouded the excellent point that the girl claims therapy made her parents worse.
Anyway, at 18, still dating this guy and we fought over religion a lot, I decided to go to a therapist to see if they knew how people could be happy without the religion of their upbringing. Something I recorded at the time was my boyfriend being disappointed that I would go outside the relationship for help. I'd forgotten about that. It screams "creepy" to me now, but in fairness he was only 19 and I was his first girlfriend.
As my therapist worked on me seeing trust of myself as good, I wound up breaking up with him. He was involved in some illegal drug use, which I wasn't going to be okay with even if I weren't Mormon.
Anyway, I just wanted to fill in my dots a little bit.
posted
Certainly it's valid. But productive? That might sound like a strange question, coming from me...but what will be gained by pursuing it?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
It depends what you mean by productive. Personally, I'd say that the reliability of the person giving advice makes a difference when deciding whether or not to follow that advice.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I agree. Evidence calling into question the advice-giver's authority on the subject is already out there now.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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