posted
I'm really conflicted about that video, and I imagine any parent would be. See, her Facebook note really was mortifying; if my daughter ever posted anything like that, I would conclude that I had completely failed up to that point as a parent and decide that drastic measures were necessary. If this were in fact the second time we'd had that experience, and I'd warned her that there would be serious consequences if she repeated her mistake, I'd feel compelled to follow it up.
Permanently depriving her of her laptop is, I think, a perfectly appropriate response. Even videotaping a speech in which I explained why I'd be taking away her laptop, and the reasons I was disappointed in her, makes sense (although it's probably not something I'd do); I wouldn't trust that I'd be able to get everything I wanted to say out as articulately -- especially given the risk of interruption.
But he did two things that give me pause.
The first, of course, is the whole shooting bit. Now, I'm not exactly a member of the "gun culture," and he and his family obviously are, so I've tried to examine this outside of the context of my own biases and imagine if I, say, bashed her laptop repeatedly with a sledgehammer on video. And what I still get out of that is "I am very, very angry and want to destroy something, so I will destroy your laptop instead of you." When I look at it that way, I see a man who has trouble controlling his own impulses, even when they get in the way of his intentions and purposes. Speaking for myself, I would have been far more likely to sell the laptop and give the money to either a charity or the "cleaning lady" his daughter had insulted; I think that act would send a less muddled message.
The second problem is with the public airing of the video. I understand that he felt his daughter had already violated the confidentiality of their family by ragging on him over Facebook, and so this was an appropriate "revenge" -- but I'm not sure that I'd want the desire for revenge to be a motivating factor in my parenting. I have trouble imagining what other positive benefits he'd expect from making the film public, unless he felt that his daughter's friends were a major negative influence on her and thus wanted to indirectly send them and their parents a warning message. If so, though, I think his delivery obscured that point. It's more likely that he feels that shame is an effective deterrent, and that publicly shaming his daughter will have the effect he desires. While that's possible, my own belief is that people who are primarily prevented from engaging in bad behavior by shame are people who have already been raised incorrectly; if you don't respect your parents enough to express respect for them even in private, having them shame you into propriety is only going to plaster over the underlying problems.
That said, I think the followup statements Sean has posted speak largely in his favor. He's not the kind of parent I'd want to be, and I imagine he probably has to walk a finer line with his own vices than he'd like, but he's clearly trying. I suspect he's very much like his own father, based on what he's said: someone who let things go until it embarrassed the family, then blew up and tried to make a big point out of it. That's parenting from the "fear" side of the spectrum, and that's not always a horrible thing; I think it should be every parent's last resort, though, since parenting from a position of principled aspiration and mutual respect seems to generally work out better.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Like others, I'm much more impressed with Dad after reading his responses.
The gun does not bother me. Probably because I am part of the gun culture...we own guns, my kids shoot guns, my 11 year old asked for a .22 rifle for Christmas a year ago.
It sounds as if he has sat down and discussed things with his daughter and that is good. Honestly, the most impressive thing he did, for me, is when he told his daughter that the woman who worked for them trading housekeeping services was deserving of much more respect. The child sounded to me like a privileged young woman who felt she was above someone who worked hard for a living - and some 15 year olds who have been raised in middle-upper class homes do indeed need to be taken down a notch or two at times.
I've been through that with my own kids. My husband and I have been through times when we had to decide between buying food and paying the light bill - my kids have never experienced that. Both my husband and I make more money and are more financially secure than our parents were, so our standard of living for our kids is higher than our own was. It's hard for kids who have lived in relative privilege (by no means do I consider us rich, but we are definitely comfortable) to not look down on others unless you make a point as parent to instill some sort of values in them - and even then you have moments when you think you fail. I see this Dad as struggling with that same type of issue. Maybe I'm projecting, but I can see him as coming up having to work hard and learning the value of hard work and now believing he has failed in teaching that same sort of values to his daughter.
Then there's the panic that you don't have much time left - she is 15, almost sixteen - she will soon be considered an adult...so if he wants to make an object lesson it needs to be quick and drastic to make a point.
Would I have done the same? Probably not exactly the same way....but I would have felt compelled to do something. I can empathize with what he went through, for sure.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
You know how it is easy to (rightfully) hate on parents who want to be their kids' friend? I think this guy is just the angry version of that: his anger is more "I'll show you!" and less "You did something really wrong."
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I actually didn't find myself all that upset. I don't think this was the best parenting ever, but I think it was dramatically better parenting than some others I've seen. In particular after reading his followup commentary.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I actually didn't find myself all that upset. I don't think this was the best parenting ever, but I think it was dramatically better parenting than some others I've seen. In particular after reading his followup commentary.
His followup commentary only shows that he is not out to lunch completely as a parent. It still doesn't really make any case for why his video isn't headslappingly bad. This whole thing the dad is doing is just a great way for him to say loud and clear: "this is just what I'm like, and you can bet money that it's a big reason why my daughter's like what she's like in many ways. And now I'm going to drive it in publicly in a way which will probably only cause more problems between us than it will solve, because I'm probably not real good at figuring out or admitting to myself how much of this is really about teaching you a lesson, versus acting out my embarrassment through publicized revenge"
Well, certainly, his revenge is complete, via public shaming that practically everyone she knows will have seen and watched by now. Good job, dad. It's guys like you who keep therapy a growth market, haha.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:" He could have simply taken the laptop away. "
Really? You know that for a fact, that it would make the same impression to his daughter as destroying the laptop?
And frankly, he has explained already that he had taken it away several times and it didn't work in the long run. He now tried something differently.
You aren't explaining how what he did was BAD, you're effectively merely arguing against it on the sole basis that it was *impressive*. Since his purpose was to make a lasting impression on his daughter, that's an argument in favour of his actions, not against.
Posts: 676 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'm really conflicted about that video, and I imagine any parent would be. See, her Facebook note really was mortifying; if my daughter ever posted anything like that, I would conclude that I had completely failed up to that point as a parent and decide that drastic measures were necessary. If this were in fact the second time we'd had that experience, and I'd warned her that there would be serious consequences if she repeated her mistake, I'd feel compelled to follow it up.
Permanently depriving her of her laptop is, I think, a perfectly appropriate response. Even videotaping a speech in which I explained why I'd be taking away her laptop, and the reasons I was disappointed in her, makes sense (although it's probably not something I'd do); I wouldn't trust that I'd be able to get everything I wanted to say out as articulately -- especially given the risk of interruption.
But he did two things that give me pause.
The first, of course, is the whole shooting bit. Now, I'm not exactly a member of the "gun culture," and he and his family obviously are, so I've tried to examine this outside of the context of my own biases and imagine if I, say, bashed her laptop repeatedly with a sledgehammer on video. And what I still get out of that is "I am very, very angry and want to destroy something, so I will destroy your laptop instead of you." When I look at it that way, I see a man who has trouble controlling his own impulses, even when they get in the way of his intentions and purposes. Speaking for myself, I would have been far more likely to sell the laptop and give the money to either a charity or the "cleaning lady" his daughter had insulted; I think that act would send a less muddled message.
The second problem is with the public airing of the video. I understand that he felt his daughter had already violated the confidentiality of their family by ragging on him over Facebook, and so this was an appropriate "revenge" -- but I'm not sure that I'd want the desire for revenge to be a motivating factor in my parenting. I have trouble imagining what other positive benefits he'd expect from making the film public, unless he felt that his daughter's friends were a major negative influence on her and thus wanted to indirectly send them and their parents a warning message. If so, though, I think his delivery obscured that point. It's more likely that he feels that shame is an effective deterrent, and that publicly shaming his daughter will have the effect he desires. While that's possible, my own belief is that people who are primarily prevented from engaging in bad behavior by shame are people who have already been raised incorrectly; if you don't respect your parents enough to express respect for them even in private, having them shame you into propriety is only going to plaster over the underlying problems.
That said, I think the followup statements Sean has posted speak largely in his favor. He's not the kind of parent I'd want to be, and I imagine he probably has to walk a finer line with his own vices than he'd like, but he's clearly trying. I suspect he's very much like his own father, based on what he's said: someone who let things go until it embarrassed the family, then blew up and tried to make a big point out of it. That's parenting from the "fear" side of the spectrum, and that's not always a horrible thing; I think it should be every parent's last resort, though, since parenting from a position of principled aspiration and mutual respect seems to generally work out better.
Parents don't have to be perfect -- none of them are. It's a very difficult job and no one really knows how to do it, so I generally try to avoid being too critical of peoples parenting decisions as long as they aren't clearly abusive or neglectful. If they are sincerely trying to be good parents, there are doing better than many.
That said, there are some "parenting styles" that drive me up a wall and punishing kids publicly is one of them. It's inappropriate on all kinds of levels ranging from making others uncomfortable to being at least bordering on emotional abuse. It makes me, and apparently a lot of other people, feel more sympathy for the kid and less for the parent. And even if there were nothing else wrong with it, it's pretty self defeating for the parent to correct their child in a way that causes others to come to the child's defense.
But the thing that makes me really critical of this guy is not how he punished his daughter, but that he posted a video of himself unloading a hand gun into his daughters computer on youtube. I loose my temper from time to time, I think most people do. But it's not something I'm proud of. Once I've regained my composure, I'm always ashamed at having lost my cool. I think that's why we call it loosing your temper. It's something mature adults try not to do. The things people do when they've lost their temper, are things they wouldn't do if they were the person they'd prefer to be. So I think its inaccurate to call what this guy does a temper tantrum. There is no way most of us would do that kind of thing unless we were throwing a temper tantrum, but not this guy. Unloading a gun in to his daughter computer is something he's proud of. Something he want the whole world to see. And being proud of that kind of thing is far worse in my opinion that having done it.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I can see confiscation until the age of adulthood. But the way things actually happened, I dunno what that dude was teaching his daughter other than he thinks it's laudable to destroy other people's property. And maybe that using a gun is the solution to every problem.
quote:Originally posted by Belle: The gun does not bother me. Probably because I am part of the gun culture...we own guns, my kids shoot guns, my 11 year old asked for a .22 rifle for Christmas a year ago.
You didn't buy, now, did you? If so, it is really disturbing.
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
StarTrek: Aurora A full-length animated fan video which is better than nearly all of episodes in the various commercial series.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:You didn't buy, now, did you? If so, it is really disturbing.
Both of them (twins) got .22's that year. My son's was black, my daughter's was pink. She's a good shot. We have some land some friends let us use to set up targets and shoot. She can take out a paper target affixed to a hay bale, let me tell you! Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
That clip puts Michael Bay to shame. I've never seen so many things unnecessarily and inexplicably explode before.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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And no, she doesn't carry her rifle anywhere. If she ever goes shooting, it's with my husband and full gun safety rules are followed. Though honestly, we don't do much shooting anymore. She's playing soccer and super busy, and ammunition is expensive and the gas to drive to somewhere safe to shoot at targets is even more so.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
If that clip was a reflection of reality I don't think anybody would have the guts to drive cars.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Szymon: Oh my God. But just please tell me she doesn't carry her pink .22 in her bag together with her pink iPhone. Or do, that would be awesome
So maybe I shouldn't be amused by this, but it's in the library at my University, so I can't help but chuckle at the effects of Finals week on poor undergraduates. Though from what I hear it actually was over a girl.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Holy crap, I don't think I've ever wanted to specifically punch somebody in the face, but I do now.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Important stuff! It really opened my eyes! Never knew the number of the beast was really 616, and that Obama was possibly responsible for the JFK assassination. Things we need to know!
Posts: 407 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Context: Jim Rome had been calling the quarterback Jim Everett "Chris Everett," after the female tennis player, due to Jim Everett's decline and perceived cowardice on the field. Now Jim Rome makes the insult in Everett's face.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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