posted
I recently bought a new computer- that's what has me thinking about this.
I brought it into work to organize my DJ playlists and CDs for the middle school dance a few weeks ago; I have a few co-workers who are both offenders in the "too much talk about money" category. My decision to buy the nicest Macbook Pro available, with the biggest screen and the most memory, was met with a couple of different reactions.
One younger employee insisted on finding out what I had payed for the thing. If you need to ask this question of someone more than twice, then you should take a BIG hint and realize that they don't want to tell you. A) I work at a TEEN center and see no need in broacasting the value of my possessions, and B) I paid alot, and people ask these questions are only interested in shaming you, or finding reasons to dislike you.
The other employee immediately started criticising my decision to go with the biggest memory alottment available, at an added cost. he has the same computer, but a smaller one, and sees no reason why I would need or want the full size version. My perfectly reasonable explanations fall on deaf ears. I need the bigger hard drive for music, I wanted the bigger screen to watch movies and look at musical scores online without having to print them out (this is still hard to do). He had nothing but scorn and derision, and he couched it in what I guess he thought was sound financial advice, that I had wasted my money. No, thanks, it was money I earned, and well spent in my opinion.
This thing started me thinking about how Americans in particular are so completely tackless about money. I spent 3 months last summer in Europe, living in London, then Barcelona, and not once do I recall having an uncomfortable experience talking about money with a European. It wasn't because I didn't talk to anyone- my Spanish was quite good at the time, and I had plenty of conversations with locals. When I stayed in a hostel in Paris, people didn't moan and gripe about the cost, except, amazingly, for a few of the Americans I met. In the places I traveled, there were people enjoying all kinds of activites without talking endlessly about how much everything was costing them. I came back and told people about Symphonies I saw in Amsterdam, and London, and they wanted to know not about the experience or the piece I heard, but how much I payed for my ticket. I think people intentionally lead the conversation in this direction to shame you for boasting about something you wanted to share with them, as if it was about the money for you as well.
One night, on a train to Paris, an American mercenary from Afganistan started telling me about his sexual adventures in Thailand, Mexico, and Amsterdam, and other places. Chiefly important to him, even in his boasting about sexual escapades around the world, was how much prostitutes charged in different countries. Thailand was by far the cheepest, and as depraved as the stories were, (and they were), he seemed to get the most satisfaction out of telling me how much ummm... he had gotten for his money. As violating as that experience was for me, sitting next to this lunatic for 10 hours, it was odd that he was so passionate about saving a few bucks; so much that he told me all about prices in different places, for all sorts of things.
Why this morbid fascination with money? I tell its nothing but trouble- you only need to ask how much someone payed for something if its a pizza or a movie ticket, and you're reaching for your own wallet to pay your part of it. Otherwise, please, why do people think I am interested in their car payments, tuition, or the price of their jeans? And equally, why are people so interested in MY rent payments, MY computer, and MY jeans- they didn't cost YOU anything, so why don't you leave me alone?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
My friends do sometimes discuss their car payments with me, but it's usually in the context of looking for advice on how to get a better car loan. I work for a credit union.
I had an experience like yours a few summers back. I found this amazing wrought iron archway on my lunchbreak that I bought to use as a headboard. The first thing everyone wanted to know was how much I paid for it. Not being too quick on my feet, I went ahead and told them. Imagine my surprise when they felt entitled to comment on how much I had paid. I was completely taken aback.
My mom had always implied that people who ask you about cost (unless they're looking for advice or wanting to purchase the same thing) were low class. These were middle class suburbanites doing it. People who threw away money going out to lunch every day felt entitled to comment on the cost of my one time purchase? The worst part was, I even got a good deal on it!
I don't have any advice on how to stop it, Orincoro, but I feel your pain.
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Coming from the other side of the argument and a European family, there are drawbacks to not knowing how much things cost or how much the people around you earn.
However, I agree that in general society, things should be valued for their being there, not for their cost.
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Americans consider the cost of something, rightly or wrongly, to be an integral component of its value.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Many people do who are not American. It's just more okay to talk about it in American society, I think.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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You wouldnt enjoy the Chinese, they talk about money HONEST TO GOD at least 200% more of the time.
Its so prevailent that you will often find a group of men mention the exact $ amount of their salaries and compare them to each other.
As a missionary I was asked ALL the time about how much my living expenses were, how much money I had to save up to go, whether or not my family had money.
I don't really see it as a bad thing, I am just used to it, though its funny to hear the occasional American see Chinese people as insensitive or vulgar when they ask them questions like that.
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I might ask how much something cost if I really liked it and wanted to buy one of my own. With my finances the way they currently are, I also feel the need to "justify" my purchases. I swear, it was on sale! I also might mention my income if I am feeling pressured to spend more than my budget allows and telling them just outside my budget hasn't shut them up, I might let them know what my budget it. I know sometimes people tell me how much something costs because they are figuring that I am considering it for myself- ie I have heard a great deal about costs of car seats and cribs and nurseries since it became obvious I am going to need them.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I think it is in horrible taste to make comments on the price of other people's purchases. At the same time, I think there is extreme value in talking about money. I think that far too many people don't know nearly enough about money. They don't know how to spend it, invest it, budget it, or even pay taxes on it. I think that discussing prices and incomes is good to the extent that it is educational. I also think it shouldn't be a publicly broadcasted (or asked about) thing. It should be treated like somebody's personal family affairs. If you're close to them, it's not a big deal to talk about every once in a while.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I don't see the problem with it. In fact, I wish more people would be more open about money. How many office workers have no idea what the person sitting next to them makes, or what the person with a slightly better job than they do makes? How many people don't know what their manager or supervisor makes, or what any number of various job descriptions make in salary?
I think people would be a lot better informed about their value to management and be better equipped in salary negotiations if people weren't so tight-lipped about money.
Still, asking someone outright "how much do you make?" is verboten, at least in my experience. I think it would make life easier if people just didn't care about what others knew about their salary, or other monetary factors. I have no problem telling people what I make, or what I hope to make, or how much I spent on something. If they want to tell me of a better deal I missed out on, I'm more aware for my next purchase.
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posted
Asking how much some one makes is considered fairly rude in the circles I travel in.
Most of the time when people ask how much something is, it's because they want to know for themselves, by which I mean, when someone asks me "How much did you pay for that?" It's because they either want one, or they already got one and want to know if there's a better deal to be had.
And for that reason, I don't really see the problem with it. Word of mouth on good experience and good prices, and the reverse, is good for consumers.
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In all fairness, if I asked you how much your computer cost, it wouldn't be to criticize, but out of admiration for the computer and consideration as to whether I could afford something of similar capabilities.
Not that it sounds like that was what either of the people you were dealing with were doing, Orincoro.
And, chances are, I wouldn't ask.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:people ask these questions are only interested in shaming you, or finding reasons to dislike you.
This is not true.
There are many different reasons to ask that question besides wanting to shame or dislike the other person.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I'll recognize that there are practical reasons for asking how much something cost, but I think that the people who simply ask out of curiousity, when they KNOW that the answer is going to a relatively large amount of money, are asking for that reason.
I've just had too many of my answers followed up by the person saying: PSHHH, your crazy, or rich, or stupid, or lucky. I am none of these things, so I don't appreciate people asking one question and then making judgements.
Yeah, there are different reasons, but this is the only real motivator in the "just curious" category.
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I have to admit that I DO wonder why someone would pay Apple's prices for memory, when it's fairly easy to remove any extra memory before sending it back to them for service. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I think that the people who simply ask out of curiousity, when they KNOW that the answer is going to a relatively large amount of money, are asking for that reason.
quote:I don't appreciate people asking one question and then making judgements.
Interesting juxtaposition. Why do you feel it's OK for you to make judments based on them asking the question, but not OK for them to make judgments based on the answer?
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:I've just had too many of my answers followed up by the person saying: PSHHH, your crazy, or rich, or stupid, or lucky. I am none of these things, so I don't appreciate people asking one question and then making judgements.
Perhaps your complaint should not be with people who talk about money, and more about people who judge based on money.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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MPH- you're missing the point- In my experience, the question more often than not is a prelude to some kind of derision. The rest is my own suposition, yes, but I think its still fairly accurate to my experience. Under these "just curious" circumstances, I have had little but negative experiences, about the very next person who asks me this question though, I could be wrong.
Besides, I am judging a behavior I've seen in general, (exemplified by two recent experiences) and you're always going to win a useless point in a discussion by pointing out that every situation is unique in some way. Duh.
Tres- yeah I suppose. But then, its the people who invite the judgement, who seek it out by asking, that bother me. I am bothered considerably less when people make unfounded judgements about people based on their percieved wealth, or whatever; if simply because those judgements are usually really critiques of some percieved personality flaw (rich people as arrogant, blow-hardy, etc). You're not making a case against someone based on their money when you call them spoiled or tasteless, or whatever, but you ARE trying to make a case against someone imo, when you start asking about money and using that as a compass. So you're right in that way, that people tend to transfer their dislike of personality flaws onto people who have similar characteristics, but not the same flaws. I'm definetly not saying I'm perfect, but there are a lot more effective ways of criticizing me. My grammar and spelling for example.
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It's not just the Chinese - people in Sri Lanka talk about money all the time. Everyone wants to know everyone else's salary, their house payments, everything cost. People are constantly asking me.
I tend to defer it as much as I can - I'm not comfortable telling people such information and don't see how it's their business, but here, it's just standard practice.
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People do the same thing in Thailand, quid. There it's pretty straightforwardly about establishing a social pecking order.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I have to admit that I DO wonder why someone would pay Apple's prices for memory, when it's fairly easy to remove any extra memory before sending it back to them for service.
Why would someone have to remove it?
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I have to admit that I DO wonder why someone would pay Apple's prices for memory, when it's fairly easy to remove any extra memory before sending it back to them for service.
Why would someone have to remove it?
Installation of third party memory = voided warranty.
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quote:MPH- you're missing the point- In my experience, the question more often than not is a prelude to some kind of derision.
Maybe in thier experience, somebody who spends that much money on a laptop is either stupid or spoiled or lucky, more often than not. In their experience.
posted
Personally, if I were to ask that question I would simply be wondering about it because I am considering a similar purchase and want to see what kind of deals are available.
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Hmmm...I am one of those who doesn't find discussion of money rude. *shrug* If someone asked me what I paid for a computer I'd tell them. If they then made a judgment about me, then that's their problem, not mine
Maybe it comes from being married to a firefighter? I mean, his salary is public record, anyone could find out what he makes, in fact they publish a list every year. Once I finish school and get a job, assuming it's in public schools, same thing - anybody who wanted to know what I make could find out. My parents both worked in public service when I was younger and it was the same deal, so I guess I never got the impression that such information should be kept quiet.
I don't go around advertising what I spend or what my family makes, but if someone asks, I'll tell them. Friday night at dinner with friends from our gymnastics group, we were talking about property taxes and property values and discussing what our various houses are worth, according to the county appraisers. No one saw it as bragging or bad manners.
In fact, my friends and I compare prices on things all the time, it's not unusual at all for someone to show up with a new handbag or something and ask "Where'd you get it?" and have the reply be something like "Macy's, $39.99."
Everyone in my family knows exactly what we make, my sister-in-law is our CPA. Most of my friends don't know but only because they never asked. Like I said, I don't volunteer, but if they were to ask "How's business going? How much has Wes' new company made this year?" I would see nothing wrong with telling them.
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Yeah, we are pretty much the same... Always looking for a good deal. Why spend more if you don't have to?
Posts: 74 | Registered: Jan 2001
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It always kills me when I see something at a lower price than what i bought it for... frequently happens with action figures, but due to the nature of them it can be hard to avoid.
Posts: 74 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Installation of third party memory = voided warranty.
Based on my previous experience with Apple and discussions on Apple's support website, that doesn't seem to be true.
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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As (among other things) a supervisor of a group of Apple-licensed techs, I can tell you that we've been told -- by Apple -- that our warranties will be voided if we install any memory not specifically sold to us by Apple, even though our techs have gone through their certification programs.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Oh I'm with you guys, when we're talking about prices, it's not to see who spent the most, but who saved the most.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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In Norway, tax records are published online. Want to know how much your neighbour makes, look him up.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: In my family, we always ask how much something cost.
But in our case, the bragging rights goes to whoever got it for cheapest.
It's as though the same product bought for half the money has twice the value for us.
Meh, I don't like this game either. Its just doing the opposite of fetishizing the ultra expensive- its placing value solely on acquisition and accumulation. Besides, frankly, most "deals" that people brag to me about are for stuff I don't value anyway. A house is one thing, but we have WAY more interesting things to talk about in life than the price of a lawn mower or a fridge or a t-shirt. Its just so tasteless either way, talking about how much OR how little you spent, I just don't want to hear it, and I wish people weren't so interested in broadcasting it, and getting that information from me.
mph- as to your other comment- It seems suddenly that you agree with me. If that is their experience, then why do they feel the need to engage in the conversation at all? If you enter into a discussion and even bait the person into it by asking how much they paid, (with that preconception), knowing that you are only gathering evidence of that person's foolishness so that you can despise them, why bother? This isn't an honest thing to do, because then you're not "just curious" you are in fact persuing an agenda, "I'm holier, more frugal, smarter, than thou."
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:mph- as to your other comment- It seems suddenly that you agree with me
Um, no. You're still being judmental about people, assuming that they're being judgmental if they ask you a certain question. I do not agree with that.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Yeah, there you go, you've discovered my every personal quirk and laid it all bare before me. Funny, you're judging me, assuming that I have a certain attitude towards people, which I don't. The comment I made was a a reflective one, and its not something that ever occurs to me at the moment i am asked an innapropriate question, only afterward. Afterward, upon reflection, I find it is often true.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Orincoro, I agree about the "how much or how little you spent" thing being a little annoying. I have a friend who loves to brag to me about how thrifty she can be when buying clothes, and while I think that's awesome, it makes me feel really weird about the idea of shopping with her because it would probably embarass me. Especially because she's made it clear to me that shopping at just about any store in our mall is just "so expensive;" I would probably feel like I had to justify every purchase to her, although part of that is that she's also outspoken enough to try to make me. I mean, I don't think I usually buy super-expensive clothes. I just accept the fact that there are things I'm going to have to spend money on, like professional attire or jeans or shirts that don't expose my midriff. I don't have any problem with finding something for less, but I'm not willing to spend a lot of time on it, and I know that, say, shopping for pants at Forever 21 (which she thinks is still a little pricey - and that's where I go if I want to find something for cheap) is likely going to be both a lost cause and extremely frustrating and tiring for me. They have great dresses, though.
I really don't like people to know what I spend when I know they're super thrifty or super spendy. I try as hard as I can not to answer questions about the actual cost of my home or possessions unless I know that the person there isn't just asking to ask. I have no problem telling a friend about the condo-buying adventure if she's considering buying some real estate on her own.
I don't take offense at the question, and for close friends, I don't mind asnwering. But if I don't know someone as well, it makes me a little uncomfortable, especially if I get the impression that they are really into one side or the other of the cost spectrum.
posted
I just hate it when they ask over and over again, hoping you'll give them the information when I'm changing the topic because I don't want to discuss it, regardless of my motivations.
pH, what you're describing - your shopping habits - could be easily explained as cost effective.
For example, you have limited time, so you don't have the time required to be super thrifty and still look as professional as you are required to look. Consider it in terms of what your time is worth in dollar values and do the math for figuring out how much time is required for shopping your way versus shopping your thrifty-friend's way, factor in the cost of the clothing, any alterations or retrofitting that she may do, and calculate the dollar value of shopping for specific clothing items both ways. Actually do the math. Then, if the conversation comes up, you can back up your style of shopping with real dollar values.
No, of course you're not required to give it to her or anyone, but you could if you wanted to, but more importantly, it might help you feel more confident that, through logic, you are being the most cost effective you can be. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:MPH- you're missing the point- In my experience, the question more often than not is a prelude to some kind of derision.
Maybe in thier experience, somebody who spends that much money on a laptop is either stupid or spoiled or lucky, more often than not. In their experience.
Probably so. But that certainly doesn't excuse them from expressing that opinion to someone who does the same thing. That's just rude.
I'm not particularly offended by questions about cost, for the most part, but I am offended by people freely expressing their opinion that I paid too much and this implies that I'm (stupid, spoiled, gullible, whatever).
That said, I can relate to the "prize goes for the best bargain" conversations--I was recently taken to task for being too open when several people complimented me on a top and I responded, "Wal-Mart, $5.98!"
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Americans consider the cost of something, rightly or wrongly, to be an integral component of its value.
I agree.
This weekend I had to replace the lower intake manifold gasket in my car. This involved pulling out every conceivable component and disassembling the entire top half of the engine. It's a long, dirty, and difficult job, especially considering my lack of mechanical experience.
I had 5 neighbors stop by and talk, after they saw I'd spent all most of the day Saturday working on it. All but one thought I was a little nuts. They all mentioned having a mechanic do it and teased me about giving up a weekend, said I must really love to work on cars, etc etc. When I explained the cost would be about $800 for a mechanic to do it, their whole attitude changed. Suddenly they saw the value in what I was doing and understood why I was doing it.
The point of this little narrative is that I think that Tom is dead on the money (no pun intended). Furthermore, I think often, although definately not always, cost is an integral part of the value. I would not have spent a weekend of my time if the cost to repair it would have been much less.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quidscribis, you're right. I rarely go shopping just to look around and buy random things; I think the time and effort put into shopping is ridiculous, so I go pretty much when I have something specific that I want. I worry though, that explaining that time is valuable to me, so I don't mind spending more, will make me come off as even more spoiled, so I usually just focus on, "You are five feet tall. I am six feet tall." Which seems to be more acceptable, for some reason. Today, she said, "You don't do anything ridiculous like spend $50 for jeans, do you?!" I refused to answer that one, since there are only three brands of jeans I've found that are long enough, and they are all ridiculously pricey. Which is why I don't own many pants. So I ended up having to go into a long spiel about how it's hard enough to find pants with a 34" inseam, let alone 35-36". I just don't like being put on the spot like that. It makes me feel like I have to justify how I spend my own time/money to someone on whom it has no effect.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Americans consider the cost of something, rightly or wrongly, to be an integral component of its value.
I agree.
This weekend I had to replace the lower intake manifold gasket in my car. This involved pulling out every conceivable component and disassembling the entire top half of the engine. It's a long, dirty, and difficult job, especially considering my lack of mechanical experience.
I had 5 neighbors stop by and talk, after they saw I'd spent all most of the day Saturday working on it. All but one thought I was a little nuts. They all mentioned having a mechanic do it and teased me about giving up a weekend, said I must really love to work on cars, etc etc. When I explained the cost would be about $800 for a mechanic to do it, their whole attitude changed. Suddenly they saw the value in what I was doing and understood why I was doing it.
The point of this little narrative is that I think that Tom is dead on the money (no pun intended). Furthermore, I think often, although definately not always, cost is an integral part of the value. I would not have spent a weekend of my time if the cost to repair it would have been much less.
I just dropped $700 so that a mechanic could fix an oil leak that was at the bottom part of my engine, I have NO knowledge of cars and I very nearly went to Amazon.com to see if I could get a book that could point me in the right direction....ALMOST. I ended up getting shafted and there is still a vaccum tube leak that they could not localize and will cost me "several hundred" to fix. I just hate cars, its ridiculous to me that cars can take HOURS to fix when it comes to a simple, "replace a deffective part" job. There must be something wrong with the way cars are put together, or else Mechanics are all in on this racket.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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After this weekend, I can assure you that there is a LOT wrong with the way cars are put together, particularly a 3.4L FWD transverse V6 in a compact car frame.
I don't know anything about repairing cars either. I change my own fluids and filters and that's about it. I grabbed my Haynes manual, hopped on an enthusiasts forum, and dug in. I figured it can't be that hard.
It's been a good experience. For one, it's made me hate GM with a depth of feeling that I don't think coughing $800 up alone could accomplish. I also realized why so many other things can go wrong when you take your car to a mechanic for a fix. I literally have almost every piece out of my car but the engine block: pushrods, valve covers, power steering pump, alternator, cruise control actuator, serpentine belt, ignition coils, throttle body, every hose & electrical connection, etc. It's no wonder that something else always seems to go wrong after you get one thing fixed. That, and a lot of mechanics are just 'part-changers' rather than true mechanics.
pH- I understand your pain. My mom is 5'11. It's near impossible for her to find clothes.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: After this weekend, I can assure you that there is a LOT wrong with the way cars are put together, particularly a 3.4L FWD transverse V6 in a compact car frame.
I don't know anything about repairing cars either. I change my own fluids and filters and that's about it. I grabbed my Haynes manual, hopped on an enthusiasts forum, and dug in. I figured it can't be that hard.
It's been a good experience. For one, it's made me hate GM with a depth of feeling that I don't think coughing $800 up alone could accomplish. I also realized why so many other things can go wrong when you take your car to a mechanic for a fix. I literally have almost every piece out of my car but the engine block: pushrods, valve covers, power steering pump, alternator, cruise control actuator, serpentine belt, ignition coils, throttle body, every hose & electrical connection, etc. It's no wonder that something else always seems to go wrong after you get one thing fixed. That, and a lot of mechanics are just 'part-changers' rather than true mechanics. near impossible for her to find clothes.
Does it help if I say I had already dropped $300 with those same mechanics to fix A DIFFERENT oil leak, just 2 weeks prior to needing to take it in again? The only reason I use them is because my car is VW and domestic car mechanics can't seem to fix ANYTHING on the damn thing. So I have to grab my ankles and take it in to an "import specialist"
If a governor in Utah wanted to install a high speed rail system from St. George to say Salt Lake City (Maybe even Ogden) I would immedietly vote for them, and probably go door to door lobbying for them. I really hate cars right now. I don't even want to get started on privately owned car insurance companies within a country that makes insurance mandatory.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Whoa Ph you're six feet tall? I don't think you could be on anyone's jockey team. You may be as tall as me, but at least I'm still twice your size... ::wondering if that is something to brag about::
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: People do the same thing in Thailand, quid. There it's pretty straightforwardly about establishing a social pecking order.
I've had a grand total of three conversations with Germans who, I eventually discover, were trying bluntly to get me to tell them how much money I made, so that they knew how to judge my worth as a person.
When I asked the daughter of one such individual why this was going on, she said that her mama really was a legitimate money = everything person, and that she would compulsively grill people to figure out their class status, but only if she hadn't already seen what car they drive.
Apparently it's a 'regional thing' but I completely forget which region was mentioned.
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It makes me feel like I have to justify how I spend my own time/money to someone on whom it has no effect.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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I don't think you could be on anyone's jockey team. You may be as tall as me, but at least I'm still twice your size... ::wondering if that is something to brag about::
