quote:You will never need to know algebra. I have never once used it and never once even rued that I could not use it. You will never need to know -- never mind want to know -- how many boys it will take to mow a lawn if one of them quits halfway and two more show up later -- or something like that. Most of math can now be done by a computer or a calculator. On the other hand, no computer can write a column or even a thank-you note -- or reason even a little bit.
This man is insane.
Posts: 413 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
This guy would be one of the cashiers who looks at you funny when you give them $21.15 for a $16.15 total.
quote: The L.A. school district now requires all students to pass a year of algebra and a year of geometry in order to graduate. This is something new for Los Angeles
South Carolina is supposed to be 48th in education but I thought this was requirement 15 years ago when I was in school.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
And how is this quotee defining, "reason?" AI is improving constantly. It's really only a matter of time before programs CAN do things that require "creativity."
And denying the engineering often necessary in creative pursuites is ludicrous. I don't know how many art pieces I've been working on in which I've needed geometry and algebra to produce the results that I was looking for. For example, if I were to enter a submission for a public artwork, it would be expected that I could present a bird's-eye and elevation plan, and that both of these would be fairly accurate in terms of scale and proportion.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote: Gabriela, sooner or later someone's going to tell you that algebra teaches reasoning. This is a lie propagated by, among others, algebra teachers. Writing is the highest form of reasoning. This is a fact. Algebra is not. The proof of this, Gabriela, is all the people in my high school who were whizzes at math but did not know a thing about history and could not write a readable English sentence.
You can't argue that kind of proof! Debate closed. Richard Cohen wins.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: Writing is the highest form of reasoning. This is a fact. Algebra is not. The proof of this, Gabriela, is all the people in my high school who were whizzes at math but did not know a thing about history and could not write a readable English sentence.
You've got to love how he first makes a claim that writing is the highest form of reasoning and then immediately follows it with a sentence that is not grammatically correct.
Posts: 1466 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
If you can't do algebra, you shouldn't graduate from high school. Here in Texas kids have to pass the TAKS test in English, math, science and history. The English is pretty hard too since the questions over the reading passages are short-answer as well as multiple choice and there is a writing prompt related to the readings.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I guess I think you probably shouldn't have been able to pass your earlier math classes if you failed algebra 7 times.
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Writing is the highest form of reasoning. This is a fact. Algebra is not. The proof of this, Gabriela, is all the people in my high school who were whizzes at math but did not know a thing about history and could not write a readable English sentence.
Straw man, anyone? I like how he claims that writing is the highest form of reasoning but backs that up by not giving an argument to prove it. Instead he provides an argument to attack a completely different statement: algebra is not the highest form of reasoning. Even if his algebra conclusion were correct, he still hasn't proved his initial statement. That's no proof at all.
edited for clarityPosts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Soara: "This is a fact" is not grammatically correct?
I don't think that's the sentence they were talking about. This sentence however:
quote: The proof of this, Gabriela, is all the people in my high school who were whizzes at math but did not know a thing about history and could not write a readable English sentence.
is not a grammatically correct sentence.
And personally, I was pretty good at math, and I can still write a coherent sentence. This guy is a kook.
Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I hate algebra. It makes my head hurt It makes me miserable The site of it depresses me and I have not used it once, ever! I so strongly dislike and despise math! But, I have discalclia (sp) or something because i can barely do simple math... I could write a novel... or even a short story or think of some odd random idea for a novel or short story, I can remember details from a book I read ages ago or historical facts or various Japanese words like kuroshi but I simply cannot add 3424234 + 34234 in my head or figure out x + y = z or whatever... Don't know why that is.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I saw this article earlier today, too, and it infuriated me, not least because I'm majoring in mathematics. How are we supposed to improve the quality of our education system if we make it easier for people to graduate? That seems more like quantity over quality to me.
Also, how can he rightfully say that writing is the highest form of reasoning if the extent of his exposure to mathematics is geometry? Sure, algebra and geometry are two fundamental branches, but the courses taught in high school, and thus those which he would have taken, are relatively mindless number crunching in comparison to higher math. That said, while math doesn't teach a person reasoning (it's more of an innate trait anyway), it most definitely refines it, as do other classes which require critical thinking, like writing or history courses as examples.
And I'd still say math is as high a form of reasoning as you can get, but that's the major in me taking hold, I think. Posts: 143 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:How are we supposed to improve the quality of our education system if we make it easier for people to graduate? That seems more like quantity over quality to me.
Keep in mind that failing math doesn't mean that you are unfit for basically any job that will pay you enough to live on. Which is what the lack of a HS diploma pretty much means.
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
This, ladies and germs, was one of those days that Richard Cohen really didn't have any column ideas whatsoever, so he decided to write about what he hated in high school.
He gets a slap on the wrist for the grammatical error, but it seems to me his tongue was already poking into his cheek just a little.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Um, I almost majored in math, and I agree with this guy. Intro to Number Theory was the greatest course I ever took, but I never use more than multiplication as a bank teller.
I believe some people's brains are not wired for algebra or other higher maths. My mom is very intelligent. However, she had to take algebra three times and still only passed by the skin of her teeth. She writes poetry and teaches SEDs. Algebra only comes up if one of her students makes it that far.
My baby sister made it through algebra but not trig. She joined the Air Force and does some kind of emergency training for the pilots. Algebra not required.
What does requiring algebra actually accomplish? It has the potential to help some students realize they like math, true. However, it also has the potential to keep our artists and authors from graduating. If they don't pass, they can't get in to college where advanced training could improve their craft and help them earn a living.
I think most people know if they prefer math or english. I don't think there's a large market of untapped engineers waiting for someone to show them the light of mathematics. I really don't think that the reward outweighs the risk here.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
AvidReader, engineers are pretty important in the process of creating all the thousands of products you use every day without knowing how they work. Someone needs to know. I had such lousy math education in school that had I not had a totally independent source of math learning, I would never have realized I wanted to be an engineer, and never have bothered to take it in college and find out how much I loved it.
My father was a math major, and he, along with stuff I read for fun like Martin Gardner's Mathematical Games columns in Scientific American magazine, are the main reason I found out I like math. I also was lucky enough to get two teachers in grades 1-12 that were pretty decent math teachers. They were sort of out of the ordinary.
I really think if we want to have any engineers and scientists at all, we need to have better math teaching in grades 1-12 instead of worse.
posted
You know, I think this proves a point. So often I read a column, I read an article, a column or article that uses statistical math or some science work, and me, I check it, I find errors. (And that last sentence was calculated to give a heart attack to punctuation Nazis. It's called vernacular. Live with it, you. Faugh) And these I find, they're big errors, things that disprove or soften the point.
Hm. Someone need a math course?
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Everyone does algebra everyday, all the time- whether they realize it or not. Realizing how it's done just leads you to be better at it. I don't understand how he doesn't get that.
Posts: 879 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I didn't write the article, but I am sympathetic with the sentiment.
quote:He's failing to recognize that many forms and applications of mathematics require as much creativity and artistic talent as composition does.
So what. Juggling and video games take as much hand eye coordination as surgery. Nobody, outside of EA and maybe the Flying Karamazov brothers are seeking to push mandatory juggling requirement.
If we are speaking about cultivating creativity, for the sake of creativity, I think that we ought we out to advocate verbal manipulation. At least words are tied to thoughts, I'm not sure what numbers are tied to.
quote:He's also failing to recognize the hundreds of daily applications of algebra.
With your rigorous math education, I imagine that you can see the logical fallacy your argument.
quote:AvidReader, engineers are pretty important in the process of creating all the thousands of products you use every day without knowing how they work. Someone needs to know.
This is something I agree with. Someone needs to know. I also think that someone should know how the mail works, set theory, the expanding universe, and the difference between a triple loop and a Salchow. I'm glad someone knows, but I'm not going to say that everybody needs to know, and I'm not going to say that everyone ought to know. Building cooler, more efficient gadgets isn't the most important priority in life or education, and I don't think that such knowledge is universally necessary, and I'm good at math-- much better at math than an I've ever been at anything regarding writing-- I just don't think that it's as important as we propose. What math is, and this is no small issue, is teachable. I actually think that math's objectivity, universality, and teachablility explain why a rigorous math curriculum is so durably entrenched in public education. You can teach it, you can test it, and so in a pinch, we've elevated its importance over other subjects that are harder to adjudicate.
quote:Does anybody actually care or check if their employees have high school diplomas anymore?
Go to www.craigslist.org and check the job listings. Look at how many specify high school diploma or GED required.
Not everyone actually checks, but two (of seven) of the places that've interviewed me recently asked not only for college transcripts (for the courses I completed), but for a highschool transcript as well.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:So what. Juggling and video games take as much hand eye coordination as surgery. If we are speaking about cultivating creativity, for the sake of creativity, I think that we ought to push verbal for manipulation.
As soon as juggling and video games take the same amount of education as surgery, make sure you go out and look for a job as a surgeon, citing your extensive juggling and video game playing experience as your qualifications.
quote:With your rigorous math education, I imagine that you can see the logical fallacy your argument.
What rigorous math education? I passed algebra, aced geometry and then nearly failed trig. I dropped out of pre-calculus (too difficult) and have no experience with collegiate-level mathematics. With your rigorous liberal arts education, however, I imagine that you can see the error in your sentence. Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Evie3217: I don't think that's the sentence they were talking about. This sentence however:
quote: The proof of this, Gabriela, is all the people in my high school who were whizzes at math but did not know a thing about history and could not write a readable English sentence.
is not a grammatically correct sentence.
And personally, I was pretty good at math, and I can still write a coherent sentence. This guy is a kook.
As Tom already said, it's perfectly grammatically correct, and it's even coherent to boot.
The guy is a kook, though. Knowing where the Sahara is has nothing to do with the ability to reason.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: You know, I think this proves a point. So often I read a column, I read an article, a column or article that uses statistical math or some science work, and me, I check it, I find errors. (And that last sentence was calculated to give a heart attack to punctuation Nazis. It's called vernacular. Live with it, you. Faugh)
That's not vernacular. That's just gibberish. The problem isn't even with the punctuation, but with the syntax.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Writing is the highest form of reasoning. This is a fact. Algebra is not.
I guess we can get rid of symbolic logic then....
...of course then we'd have to get rid of all the computers that are constructed around that system of logic. And without computers, who would we get to do our math for us?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: You know, I think this proves a point. So often I read a column, I read an article, a column or article that uses statistical math or some science work, and me, I check it, I find errors. (And that last sentence was calculated to give a heart attack to punctuation Nazis. It's called vernacular. Live with it, you. Faugh)
That's not vernacular. That's just gibberish. The problem isn't even with the punctuation, but with the syntax.
Vernacular, Jon Boy, is a device in writing by which one bypasses the conventions of standardized grammar or punctuation or spelling in order to preserve a particular quality of speech, usually regional. This is how a lot of the people from around here, how we talk. The problems include: comma splice, weird subject-verb use, and run-ons. All of these I deliberately used as a reflection of the tempo and rhythm of speech.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: Look, Gabriela, I am not anti-algebra. It has its uses, I suppose, and I think it should be available for people who want to take it. Maybe students should even be compelled to take it, but it should not be a requirement for graduation.
He's not saying algebra is useless. He's saying algebra is not necessary in order to be successful in life.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
You have a group of 12 people, and you need to split them into three groups.
3x = 12 x = 4
Algebra!
You have 12 people, only seven can fit in your van, how many do you need to tell to get a ride with someone else?
12 - x = 7 x = 5
Algebra!
Its simple algebra, but people do it every day and don't realize they are doing it.
Now, do I think that you should need to be able to do formalized algebra to get a basic high school diploma? No, but I don't want to give my whole spiel as to my reasons why.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Richard Cohen is an idiot, but he is correct that the vast majority of people will never need to use algebra.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: Vernacular, Jon Boy, is a device in writing by which one bypasses the conventions of standardized grammar or punctuation or spelling in order to preserve a particular quality of speech, usually regional. This is how a lot of the people from around here, how we talk. The problems include: comma splice, weird subject-verb use, and run-ons. All of these I deliberately used as a reflection of the tempo and rhythm of speech.
"Vernacular" is not a writing device. You also don't need to tell me what the problems in that sentence are; they're all pretty clear (except for the fact that there were actually no subject-verb agreement problems). The one thing that's not clear, though, is what point you were trying to make.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Of course, calculus totally encompasses algebra so saying physics is applied algebra isn't totally off base.
posted
I don't know, Jon Boy, this part seemed to fit both what Joldo said and what he described:
quote:1 a : using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather than a literary, cultured, or foreign language b : of, relating to, or being a nonstandard language or dialect of a place, region, or country
posted
I was a Discrete Math major, still am an avid math lover, and I found the article to be on target in some respects and completely inane in others.
What I agree with is the sentiment is that not everyone should need to know Algebra. This is because there are legitimate occupations which would not directly benefit from it, and what benefit can be derived (such as any improved reasoning) could be derived in other ways. However, what high schooler knows what they are going to do for the rest of their lives? In many ways, a poor grasp of Algebra may hinder them several years down the road when they find themselves interested in something completely different from what they were interested in while a high schooler. Or it may not at all, and like the author of this article will consider it wasted time. Well that's tough. If our schools aim at providing the minimum requirements for what everyone will need in life and make all other things optional, we will be churning out students who have a poor appreciation for the various disciplines of knowledge. I took many courses in school, both in public school and college, that I today have no "obvious" use for. I was in my high school orchestra, which in fact was optional past the first year, yet I don't consider that time wasted. My hands have received no benefit that I can think of from having learned the mechanics of playing a violin, and what I learned of music theory or appreciation from that period I could have easily covered directly by other means. For a slightly more relevent analogy, I despised art lessons in elementary school and anything that required artistic thought in classes beyond that, and I don't see what benefit I have derived from those lessons or projects (although I can't brashly claim that I must have "never used" those skills), but I don't crusade against art classes because I recognize that it is something I have experienced that I would not desire to un-experience. However, once the schools decide to require a subject that is deemed important, it is their responsibility to make sure that it is taught accurately and engagingly, in such a way as to not alienate students. I find that more often than not with math, teachers will teach the rote formulas or theorems without teaching the actual reasoning involved. This is admittedly harder to do than for any other subject, because the memorization or experimentation approach can work pretty well in most other academic fields (memorization for things such as history, vocabulary, rules of grammar, scientific definitions, and experimentation for scientific theories, reading comprehension or writing).
Xavier well covered the argument that the author does not use algebra; in reality the author does use it without knowing it in answering the sort of simple questions Xavier posed.
The argument that REALLY irked me, however, was the author's take on why "writing" was a higher form of reasoning than "algebra". The argument that follows that assertion I find to be one of the most horrible examples of reasoning I have seen, which weakens his argument considerably.
Certainly, good persuasive writing will *use* reasoning, and certainly someone can learn good reasoning skills by a study of good rhetoric, but that does not demonstrate any relative worth in terms of reasoning between writing and mathematics. The author's use of the word "reasoning" in fact seems to betray his misunderstanding of what it actually is; a perfect logician who was the master of reason could fail to locate the Sahara desert if he did not ever possess the knowledge of its existence, and not knowing this fact does not denigrate his reasoning abilities one whit. The author seems to define reasoning in terms of literary ability and then express astonishment that people who were more mathematically minded demonstrated less "reasoning" by his definition. This is a circular argument if there ever was one! By that same logic, I could make the opposing case that Mathematics is the highest form of logic, and use this very writer as the "proof" of my statement because by his own admission he is poor at Mathematics.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by erosomniac: He's also failing to recognize the hundreds of daily applications of algebra. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bingo!
I still think that if the main argument for Algebra is that Algebra is ever practical, then we are in a bad way, but Algebra is not ever practical. The only way I'm going to be convinced that algebra is appropriate, for all of the time spent teaching it, is to learn that math influences, in a positive manner, ones general mental acquity. My problem with the general push for math and science education is that keeping up and being competitive with the Chinese and Indians isn't a compelling. I don't care that we are blank out of blank of industrial nations with respect to math and science scores.
Our main problems with public education concern character, and I think the push for math and science is distracting. (And yes, I'd be curious to see the scores of all of these politicians clamoring about math and science education if they were to take an algebra test now. And yet, they are perfectly competent in their capacities as American royalty.)
My second problem is that I think math and science dull certain other faculties, namely, an appreciation of the non-fungible things in this world. This is a deep problem, and I don't have a clear thesis adequate the severity of this issue, but I do believe that the virtues of science and math, universality and demonstrability, lead one to expect every other worhty pursuit to be universally understood and publically demonstrable. People ask for proof in geometry, leading to proof in legal situations, then eventually to proof of love and God. Math solutions are perfect for numbers, then widgets, then we start applying them to people's lives, with the same rigidity, and the unaccounted for patterns are lumped off as outliers.
I think the muscular influence of math and science on other, more important, facets of moral thinking is unbecoming. Maybe my issue isn't that I think people are using too little math and science, I think people are using too much, as a substitute for the more fragile exercise of thinking and caring.
quote:The only way I'm going to be convinced that algebra is appropriate, for all of the time spent teaching it, is to learn that math influence, in a positive manner, ones general mental acquity.
OK, here goes: There is a type of thinking taught that is taught in math, symbolic logic, and software development (including data modeling) that is not generally taught elsewhere. I don't know the jargon-name for it, but it involves pattern recognition, abstraction, and substitution.
Many different fields use it, including most sciences, law, social sciences, and even literature. Many people are capable of learning it during the course of learning those fields, but it is generally not taught as a separate kind of thinking. Post-algebra math, symbolic logic, and software development all teach it explicitly. Of these, algebra requires the least amount of prerequisite knowledge to learn and has the most daily applicability. To me, this makes it the best candidate of the three for a highschool requirement.
Why is this type of thinking so important? Because it allows examining the specific to deduce the general in a testable and repeatable way. It also allows manipulation of the pattern in the abstract in order to see if additional knowledge can be gained from what we already know.
The basic concept of abstraction and substitution is critical to this kind of thinking. Too many people do it without realizing what they are doing, and it seriously hinders their ability to understand a situation.
In my current field of study, law, many engineers, programmers, and mathematicians do better than they expected, because this type of thinking is critical to truly understanding the law. Moreover, it can be applied to the law without thinking of the law as something subject to total quantification and proof.
What it allows you to do is identify the specific questions that need to be answered in order to maximize ones ability to think and care about the situation at hand.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Debate closed. Richard Cohen wins.
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