posted
What do you think? My son was handed a New Testament today between the front door of the school and the school bus. On school property.
I'm not sure if I'm more upset that the school might have agreed to allow this to happen, or if they were allowing children to be accosted on the way to their buses. Either way, what were they thinking?
Am I right to be upset? If they allowed these people to be handing them out, will they soon be allowing other religions to be passing out similar materials? If they didn't give these people permission, should I be upset at the level of security they have on the school grounds?
posted
What exactly is wrong with a book that gives you the chance to understand a large number of other peoples beliefs? Plus, it's not like they HAD to take it.
i don't see what handing out New Testament's has to do with "security they have on school grounds".
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Used to happen all the time at my HS. They did it just outside the school grounds, where everyone left to be picked up.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I sort of agree with cheiros do ender. Unless it was forced into your son's hands, there shouldn't be a problem with it.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Outside school grounds would be worse, IMO. It'd be like a stranger in a car offering you candy in a way. At least on school grounds the act can be supervised and there's lots of people around.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sadly, it really depends on the age of the children as to whether forced into their hands or coerced there has any bearing. A young kid will take just about anything, I'd guess.
I have no problem with the New Testament, and I'd love for everyone to have one and read it. I'd hope they grew from it.
But...
What if it had been a manifesto from the Klan? Or a pamphlet on how to buy drugs? Or even pornography?
I hate to use a slippery slope argument, but perhaps they shouldn't be handing out anything that isn't school related on school grounds, just to be safe.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Same thing happened at my high school. Twice a year or so they'd hand out bibles maybe three feet away from school grounds, but at the intersection everyone HAD to go through to get home.
A third of the kids tossed them in their backpacks, a third just said no, and a third took them and ripped them up throwing the pages all over the place causing a giant mess.
If you ask me, it's a waste of bibles. Kids who weren't interested before won't be interested now. Heck, they don't even want to do their homework, why would they start reading the bible?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: i don't see what handing out New Testament's has to do with "security they have on school grounds".
You don't have a problem with strange men on school grounds? How many pedophiles do you think have moved on from "can you help me find my puppy?" to "have you been saved?" Do you think the school did background checks on these people, or did they just allow recently released prisoners on school grounds?
quote: What exactly is wrong with a book that gives you the chance to understand a large number of other peoples beliefs?
I already have the New Testament in my house. Along with the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. So, is it only okay because it's a "large number of other peoples beliefs"? What if it were a Muslim tract, or Wiccan? Pagans? Where would you draw the line?
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kayla, if they were on school grounds it probably wasn't sanctioned. Talk to the school, they'll probably be happy to tell them to leave and not come back. (My school managed to get an injunction even though they weren't on school property eventually, because of parents' safety concerns with people hanging around the school.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
When handed a New Testament on campus a few years back, a jewish friend of mine said "Oh thanks! Wait, this is just the sequel... the original's much better."
You should have seen the guy's reaction.
***
As for school security, that is a concern, and you should bring it up with your school's principal. Other than parents or guardians picking up their kids, strange adults should not be patroling the front of schools at day's end confronting students - for whatever reason.
And regardless, there should be staff outside watching to make sure strange adults aren't approaching students. With the risk of abduction, students should be monitored especially closely once they are outside the school's walls but still on school grounds.
I don't care if they're handing out free lottery tickets or candy. It's too risky to have anyone, no matter what their angle, interacting with students without some sort of official supervision.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
AFAIK, they can hand out the New Testaments off school grounds. We had this situation last school year. Parents were upset and wondered how legal it was.
Part of the problem was they just showed up. If they had contacted the school and said what they wanted to do, the school could have sent a letter home with kids, parents could have said "accept it" or "don't accept it" to their kids and it wouldn't have been such a big deal. I believe in this case that the people handing them out were on the sidewalk, not school grounds.
I think it boiled down to: freedom of speech = they can hand them out; separation of church and state = not on school grounds.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
They could be from the local church in a community strongly christian for all i know. S/he still hasn't speicified who the men were that much.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Were I a parent, I'd be very concerned with letting people like that near my children. Anyone pushing their agenda to kids sets off warning flags to me, especially if they are acitvely handing things out. Scary power issues there.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
If it's on school grounds, there's a problem. Either the school sanctioned religious proselytization, which violates the separation between church and state and places responsibility on the school's administration -- or it didn't, and these people are trespassing and should be treated as any adult sneaking onto school grounds should be.
Really, I'd love to see some people's reactions if these were fundamental Muslims handing out Korans, or Wiccans, or Satanists. Are we really so partisan?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Damn, I wish atheists had a good tract to hand out on school grounds. Das Kapital doesn't really cut it. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just read an article in the local "pagan" newsletter . . . apparently they aren't much for handing out tracts, proselytizing, etc., because THEY don't feel safe and free in this country to be open about THEIR beliefs . . .
And it would be interesting to see the reactions if it were some other religion . . . hmmmm.
I agree, Kayla, with the previously expressed opinion that the administration needs to be notified of the incident and your concern.
And perhaps a brief reminder to your child about not talking to strangers, especially strangers trying to give you something, even IF on school property?
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
According to the ACLU webpage they shouldn't be doing this.
quote: The organized distribution of Bibles or any other holy book during the school day is unconstitutional, even if teachers aren't the ones actually handing out the Bibles, and even if they're not used as a part of the school's educational program. That's because the school building or grounds are still being used to spread a religious doctrine at a time when students are required to be there.
Well, maybe not. It was after school, though still on school grounds.
Here's another interesting account, also on an ACLU page.
quote: Josh Berger is my name. I'm from Rensselaer, Indiana. When I was ten and in the fifth grade, my dad wrote a letter to my school complaining about the fact that the Gideon Society distributed Bibles in the school every year. The Gideons are very up front about wanting to convert people to their type of Christianity. My family is an interfaith family Ä my dad is Jewish and my mother is Protestant Ä so they're very particular about the kind of religious teaching they want for me and my sister. Although I usually go with my mom to the church where she's an elder, religion is a personal matter in our house.
My dad expected that his complaint would settle things. He never thought he would have to go to court. But when the school responded in a hostile way, he went to the ACLU for help in filing suit. At the trial, the school superintendent testified that the school wasn't really pushing any type of religion by letting the Gideons distribute their Bibles because, she said, anyone could walk into the school and pass out religious materials if they wanted to. My mom, who's a teacher in the school district, knew that wasn't true. She knew the school officials would not have allowed any other kinds of religious materials to be distributed. Two older kids who are friends of mine testified for our side.
Even though our town is a rural place where people don't like to make waves, many of the neighbors, teachers and churchpeople supported us. None of the kids stopped being friends with me, even though some of their parents disagreed with us.
We won our lawsuit. After the federal district court ruled in favor of the school, the appellate court overturned that ruling and agreed with us that the Bible distribution was unconstitutional. Since the U.S. Supreme Court refused the school's request to review the case, our victory stands.
posted
Well, personally, I think if it's a small child, then it's just wrong. It's basically propaganda if you think about it. I mean if it were at a college campus, and not forced on people, then it'd be more acceptable, but they can't just say "Hey, 5 year old kid, take a bible" What if their parents were atheist, pagan, jewish, or any number of other religions? What do you think would happen if a kid came home and said to their parents "Mommy, why are we heathens?" What happens then?
Posts: 12 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
Today at my school members of Gideon International were on school grounds passing out Gideon Bibles. One of them approached me and I told him i was an atheist, and I don't want one and he threw one in my passenger seat anyway and told me to read it. I'm sure this is a violation of my rights, what can I do to keep that off my school?
-via e-mail
American Atheists Respond:
Thanks for your e-mail. I would complain to the principal because they are not allowed to do that on school property. If the principal is not cooperative tell him or her that next week you will be standing in the same spot handing out copies of Madalyn O'Hairs Why I Am An Atheist to all the children. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I think the principal will then cooperate with you.
Most of what I'm finding is about Gideons passing them out, and it looks like that is what my son got, the New Testament with Psalms and Proverbs.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I too find it very . . . uncomfortable that people unsanctioned by the school are allowed on school grounds to hand out anything to children (for surely they're not school-sanctioned, or you really do get to raise Cain ). School should be a place where children are exposed to alternate points of view and have their minds opened a little, but I'd say it should either come from their friends or it should be presented neutrally by a teacher.
Myself, I only turned liberal because of several researched debates I was assigned to in class. I'd consider that a legitimate form of schoolroom persuasion.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
Umm, I pretty sure that one is taken by the Satanists, Imogen.
"KoM, you could always hand out Chick tracts. They seem pretty effective at converting people to atheism."
Those too, Enigmatic. I wouldnt recommend passing them out if you're not a Satanist, either. I hear they have some pretty good lawyers on their side, and they aint afraid to use them.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:And it would be interesting to see the reactions if it were some other religion . . . hmmmm.
Are you kidding? In Kansas? It's barely acceptable to be another religion, let alone hang around outside schools waiting to prey on kids.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: When handed a New Testament on campus a few years back, a jewish friend of mine said "Oh thanks! Wait, this is just the sequel... the original's much better."
*notes for future use*
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Leaving aside issues of security, I believe these men can hand out whatever legal literature they want, as long as they don't work for the school. I would hazard a guess that the men don't ask the school for permission because with the school's permission, the school might be percieved as advocating (a) religion.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am uncomfortable when the Gideons hand them out on college campuses, and I'm a Christian. I have nothing against the New Testament (except that I have a couple copies of my own), but the manner in which they are handed out leaves a lot to be desired. They basically press them into the hands of anyone who walks by. This being a college campus, occasionally someone will stop to argue with them in the street about what they're doing, and overall, the effect is more divisive than bringing people towards Christ. There are a lot more effective (and tactful!) ways to share the message than forcing it on every person who walks by.
The fact that they are allowed to do this at elementary schools really upsets me. Most elementary age children are not capable of really analyzing their faith. It is up to their parents to give them the tools to understand the parents faith, and up to the children to decide as adults whether to continue to practice or not. It should not be up to strangers without parental permission to instruct children in religion.
One another note, it is even less sensical to give elementary age children copies of the New Testament than it is to give out to all college students. At least all college students are presumably capable of reading it and understanding it. Compare that to elementary students, I myself was rather bright as young child, but King James's English was painstaking and nonsensical to a child my age, without any parental guidance as to what words meant. I'm sure if anyone read the bible with their parents as children they learned the vocab, but without that background it's nearly impenetrable to even the average 5th grader let alone kindergarten or 1st graders.
I'm not really addressing whether or not it's right to have people on school grounds handing this stuff out to begin with, I'm just saying that they ought to stop because it seems like a waste of time and resources as well as being offensive. If you're really trying to convince earnest converts to join your church, you would do well to start by not offending them.
Posts: 349 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Were I a parent, I'd be very concerned with letting people like that near my children. Anyone pushing their agenda to kids sets off warning flags to me, especially if they are acitvely handing things out. Scary power issues there.
There's people doing that all the time at schools...they're called "teachers". Everyone has an agenda.
quote:According to the ACLU webpage they shouldn't be doing this.
Going by the Anti-Christian Leftists Union's legal attacks, they shouldn't even be Christian. Good ACLU sign.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a bit creepy too, but for heaven's sake, they're just people trying to do what they believe their religion wants them to do, they're not pedophiles or bad people. Just a little odd. Okay, really odd.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kayla, if I were you, I'd be furious and I'd have a lot to say to the principal. First and foremost, I'd want to know if the school sanctioned this. If so, I would demand an immediate stop to it. I would also request an apology that my child was exposed to the New Testament without my knowledge or consent.
To me, it is worse if it's not sanctioned by the school. There should be teachers and/or administrators watching the children walk from the buses to the school building. If there were, why in the heck didn't they notice that there were strange men handing things to the children? Something like this would NEVER be allowed in a Henrico elementary school.
quote:Don't get me wrong, I think it's a bit creepy too, but for heaven's sake, they're just people trying to do what they believe their religion wants them to do, they're not pedophiles or bad people.
How do you know that?
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree that it's innapropriate. I think it's wrong to proseltyse to school children. The safety factor is huge, too...I could all to easily see a pedophile getting into that for the easy access to children.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
*nods* I also remember that the guys doing it at my school were hostile when students refused a copy.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
On school grounds = illegal. Even if off school grounds = sketchy around minors.
At my private university, groups would table. If a bunch of Gideons, (or Girl Scouts, or tribal dancers, or people who believe we are all descended from WahWah the panda god, wanted to set up a table and sit behind it, they could. And if someone found their table to be of interest, they could wander up and ask for the treatise on WahWah. It allowed people to have a venue in which they could make their private cause available to others without anyone feeling pressured. If someone did something similar off school grounds and with parents' and the schools' knowledge, then I would be ok with it. You shove anything into my kid's hand and I'm going to be gunning for you.
I have personal experience with anti-abortion activists and Gideons just off of school grounds in my high school years, and I think they were alienating people much more than interesting them. I am not Christian, but it made me sad to see students throw the Bible on the ground or rip it up; it's disrespectful to others' beliefs. Choosing to stake out school grounds is not healthy for children or for the group who so desperately wants to share their message.
Kayla, give that principal hell.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that it's kind of sad that these days, people handing out scriptures are considered to be engaging in sketchy behavior.
That being said, while I wouldn't quite say it is sketchy, I would certainly consider it less effective behavior. Really, handing out NTs to elementary kids, what's it going to accomplish. Might as well go to malls and "witness" to random people - you know that's the way to change people's lives...
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
What's really sad is that these days, being a stranger in itself is considered sketchy - and that people feel justified in fearing their neighbor for almost no reason at all.
On that note, assuming we are talking about something that happened outside the school but on school property, it is unreasonable to expect schools to keep strangers off school property. School property tends to be large and open, and is often filled with parents/family coming to get children at the end of school. A better question is why is the distance between the bus and the front door so far that these people can be there? It should be close enough that teachers can patrol the whole distance.
On the other hand, I suppose it is possible they were sanctioned. I would think this is okay as long as they have a policy of sanctioning anyone who wants to give out religious material. I can't imagine a good reason for such a policy at an elementary school though.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have one specific objection and one general one.
The specific one is that I do not think that strangers should be allowed on campus without the school's knowledge or consent. Assuming consent was given, I have a specific objection to religious materials being handed out on school property since I do believe that separation of church and state is a good idea, regardless of whether we agree about what the Constitution has to say about it.
My general objection is that the free versions handed out usually aren't very good. The print is small. The paper is cheap. And I don't usually care for the translation they're using.
I would rather that a child see the Bible as special and something to be both cherished and used. In fact, I would hope that my children (virtual though they may be) would get their first copy of Scripture either from dkw and I or from the congregation as a group.
It should be imbued with some ceremony, IMHO.
At least, it's an opportunity to make a point about community and belief beyond just "Hey kid, take a crappy copy of the New Testament!"
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
1) Darwin's writings on evolution 2) Asimov's critique of Creationists. 3) McDonalds advertisements.(earn some money while doing it) 4) Candy. 5) Glasses of flouridated water in cups telling them the advantages of flouridation. 6) Bumper stickers that say "Gideon is goofy"
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: What's really sad is that these days, being a stranger in itself is considered sketchy - and that people feel justified in fearing their neighbor for almost no reason at all.
posted
We still don't know how old the boy is as far as I know. If you're arguing this on just the assumption that he's a preschooler, that's not really fair, is it?
Yes, I agree, there are better ways to educate people about different faiths. Like when accompanied by someone responible and over, say, 15.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:We still don't know how old the boy is as far as I know. If you're arguing this on just the assumption that he's a preschooler, that's not really fair, is it?
No...if it's on public school property, I don't want religious groups there unless access is open to all. I think it's far simpler to have access closed to all. My kids can get religious messages from their parents and the church we all attend.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
When I was in high school, they handed out the little New Testaments (plus Psalms & Proverbs) just across the street from the school. However, that happened to put them on the sidewalk directly in front of the LDS seminary.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
