quote: A myth was not true because it was factual but because it was psychologically effective. If it forced people to change their minds and hearts, gave them hope, and compelled them to live more fully, it was valid, because it told us something important about how humanity worked.
A myth was a programme for action. The myth of the hero, which is remarkably similar in nearly all cultures, showed people what they must do to tap into their own heroic potential. The myth of Demeter and Persephone suggested that a disciplined confrontation with our mortality could lead to spiritual regeneration. A myth is a guide; it tells us what we must do to live more intensely. If we do not apply it to our own situation and make the myth a reality in our own lives, it will remain as incomprehensible as the rules of a board game, which often seem confusing and boring until we start to play. If we do not attempt to implement its directives, we cannot assess its truth.
I like this , though I wish she wouldn't have framed it in such absolute terms. I would've preferred that she said something like,"If it helped people..." Too many people already believe that if they can just burn enough alternative myths, theirs will win the hearts and minds through the force of its truth, and the nation/world will transcend to Fiddler's Green or some other utopia.
Her essay illustrates why it is important to kep perspective about our myths, our spiritual truths, about whether or not a mythical history is 'real' or not. 'Myth' cannot be literally real and 100% true because it represents an ideation of what can be. Thus, it is of paramount importance for people who, on the one hand, want to build heaven on earth to understand that no matter what they do, this is not possible and, on the other hand, people who deny the reality of myth to just shut up and think of the inspiration and inspired effect that movies, fiction, and art have on the imagination.
This is not to say, of course, that we can't have our heroinnes here on earth, but we should still understand that they have feet of clay and respect them for what the best that they represent, but also see the flaws clearly and understand that they are, in the end, really no better than any of the rest of us.
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posted
I'll be reading the essay later today, but in the meantime, Irami, have you ever read Silverberg's short story "After the Myths Went Home"? It's been some time since I've read it, but from what you say it sounds like it's relevant to the discussion at hand.
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: 'Myth' cannot be literally real and 100% true because it represents an ideation of what can be.
Just wanted to point out that it's the position of some of the stronger Christian Apologists of the last century that this is precisely what happened in Christianity-- that what was encapsulated by the mythologies of the world actually happened at a specifc place and time.
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Her point is that myths are real; they just illuminate a different facet of reality than science.
I had a great professor who said that the Ancient Greeks understood myths not as actually happening, rather, the myths always are. They were told to clarify the human condition and who we are today.
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quote: Tragically, because of our lack of mythical expertise, the myths that did emerge in the 20th century were narrowly racial, ethnic, and egotistic, exalting the self by demonising the other. We cannot counter bad myths by reason alone, because undiluted logos cannot deal with such deep-rooted, unexorcised fear and hatred. We cannot completely cancel out the rational bias of our education but we can acquire a more educated attitude to mythology.
What would be an example of such a 20th-century "bad" myth?
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Uprooted, I imagine the stubborn racism, communism, fascism, and Nazism of the 20th century are rooted in myth. As is the moral supremacy of democracy, capitalism, and christianity in America. I'm pretty sure that myth is the foundation of all social claims, if anything, it creates/clarifies our responsibilities, and myth may even be a pre-condition for thought, as time and space are preconditions for empirical knowledge.
Storm, just not empirical relevant. I mean, hatrack is not empirically true. I can't find it on a map, but it none the less is.
posted
Sigh. *rubs forehead* I hate it when I can't communicate.
Yes, we agree, Irami.
"Dreams, Mr. Nyazi, are perfect ideals, complete in themselves. How can you impose them on a constantly changing, imperfect, incomplete reality? You would become a Humbert, destroying the object of your dream; or a Gatsby, destroying yourself."
posted
Hmmm. Fascism/Nazism/Communism, Democracy/Capitalism/Christianity, all rooted in myth. Interesting. I can see why you would say these 20th-century philosophies are rooted in myth. But I don't think that makes them myths; to me, myth is "story," with characters and plotlines. I have a hard time seeing these ideologies as myths that have emerged in the 20th century, as Armstrong put it--that is using myth as "lie" in a very loose sense, as she described in the beginning of her essay.
I take exception with some of Armstrong's premises, predictably enough. Such as: "When we hear of gods walking the earth, of dead men striding out of tombs, or of seas parting to allow a favoured people to escape, we dismiss these stories as demonstrably false." Her "we" blithely assumes that any educated reader will share the same view. I happen to think that some stories that have been handed down to us ARE historically true and not so easily dismissed, and I know I'm not alone in that on this forum. How to determine which stories are history and which are true only in the sense of defining our humanity is a very personal matter, however, and not left to empirical evidence alone.
At any rate, I do certainly agree with Armstrong's key point, that art, mythology, religion--they all serve to uplift the human race, and a culture divorced from them must be, by definition, a wasteland.
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quote: I happen to think that some stories that have been handed down to us ARE historically true and not so easily dismissed, and I know I'm not alone in that on this forum. How to determine which stories are history and which are true only in the sense of defining our humanity is a very personal matter, however, and not left to empirical evidence alone.
Let's put it this way, would it be possible to 'prove' that these stories are false to you? I'm guessing not, and the reason for that is because they are a part of the ideal that you, or your culture that you belong to, has for what it means to be you. They form a part of who you are, they are the history of you.
If you are willing to use non-empirical evidence, which is to say, subjective evidence, then I don't think you can say that your stories are historically true in the sense that the civil war is true or world war I is true.
And, really, why does it matter whether the story is objectively, demonstrably true? This goes back to her point, to understanding the difference between myth and reality and the functions that each fulfills. For instance, when we write poetry to the one we love, we say that they are the most beautiful, or that they are the best wife or girlfriend, in the world. We know, factually, that this is false in an objective sense. However, in a very valid subjective sense, it is 100% emotionally true and we believe it because we feel it,'the testimony of the heart', as one member of this forum put it recently.
Now, these kinds of beliefs are only useful to the person who believes them, but that doesn't mean that they aren't useful and good and necessary.
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quote: Our modern alienation from myth is unprecedented, because human beings have always been myth-makers. There is a moving, and even heroic, asceticism in the rejection of myth, but purely linear, logical and historical modes of thought have debarred us from the wisdom that enabled men and women to draw on the full resources of humanity. The most developed and ethically intelligent myths taught people that compassion and abandoning egotism were beneficial and helped them to cultivate a sense of the earth as sacred, instead of merely being a resource. These are attitudes that are sorely needed today. Tragically, because of our lack of mythical expertise, the myths that did emerge in the 20th century were narrowly racial, ethnic, and egotistic, exalting the self by demonising the other. We cannot counter bad myths by reason alone, because undiluted logos cannot deal with such deep-rooted, unexorcised fear and hatred. We cannot completely cancel out the rational bias of our education but we can acquire a more educated attitude to mythology.
Oh, and I think this is very silly on its face. If anything, I think we live in a period of time when more people get along all over the world because of the everpresent myths and stories of tolerance that surround them.
I disagree with her belief that human beings are now 'alienated from myth'. It's built into the system, I think. No one is without it and we are drenched in myth more than we ever have been, now that we have more time to do nothing but imbibe stories and myth.
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, though I wish she wouldn't have framed it in such absolute terms. I would've preferred that she said something like,"If it helped people..." Too many people already believe that if they can just burn enough alternative myths, theirs will win the hearts and minds through the force of its truth, and the nation/world will transcend to Fiddler's Green or some other utopia.
