posted
I saw this here this morning, and I couldn't believe it. Does anyone actually believe that having babies should be every woman's sole aspiration in life?
There's a little more to the article, but this is the pertinent part:
quote:There are a number of steps that a woman whose priority remains marriage and children can take in order to happily achieve those goals:
1. Don't engage in casual dating relationships after 18. They're fun, and they'll also prevent you from pursuing more fruitful relationships.
2. Make those potential long-term relationships your top priority. If you put college or your job first, there's a reasonable chance that a job is all you'll have at 40 ... and 60. Consider the president's new Supreme Court nominee. The unmarried and childless Creepy McCrypto is on the verge of becoming one of the two most powerful professional women in the country – does she really represent the ideal American woman?
3. Settle earlier rather than later. I can't tell you how many women I know who blew off good men in their late teens and early 20s who now regret doing so. Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before. Remember, your choices narrow as you get older, while men's choices broaden.
4. Let everyone know that marriage and children is your ultimate goal. Too many women, fearing the wrath of the Sisterhood, secretly wish for them while publicly and piously professing feminist-approved cant to the contrary.
5. Bait-and-switch doesn't work. Unlike their female counterparts, men who say they don't want to get married or have kids usually mean it. Play that game and he'll be perfectly justified in dumping your dishonest posterior despite your time-investment in him.
6. Don't hesitate to end relationships that aren't leading toward marriage, or with men who are less than completely positive about the near-term prospect of children. If he hasn't proposed in 18 months, he has no intention of doing so. Cut your losses. Most men know how to string women along and know they'll have no problem replacing you when you finally call their bluff. Never confuse the masculine desire for conflict avoidance with malleability.
7. Shed your man-hating friends, as well as those who buy seriously into the Equalitarian dogma. Misery loves company and miserable women like nothing better than to make everyone within a five-mile radius miserable, too.
8. Be brutal when assessing the men who are interested in you. Too many women make the mistake of looking only at a man's desirable traits and ignoring his weaknesses early on. But it's not the first kiss that matters – it's the happily-ever-after part. The way he treats others is the way he will eventually treat you.
9. If you want the odds of easily bearing healthy children to be in your favor, set a goal of marrying by 25. You can always go back to school, you can't go back in time.
10. Remember that love is a choice, an action and a commitment, it is not a feeling
Except for numbers 5 and 10 (which I'm neutral on), I think all of these points are perfect examples of what not to do when dating.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I love how this guy(!) is so thoroughly confident that all women REALLY want to have children deep down, even if they say they don't. Maybe I'm the only woman who really, honestly doesn't want kids, but somehow I doubt it.
I could say a lot more here, but I think it's best for now if I don't post here.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I think if someone is going to write a column to dish out advice to Womankind in general, they might at least try not to seem so unattractive to this female reader. Who wants a bossy old arrogant thing like that for a husband, anyhow?
Posts: 74 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:I can't tell you how many women I know who blew off good men in their late teens and early 20s who now regret doing so. Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before.
posted
Of course not ALL women want this. But there are some that do. I guess that women are able to determine for themselves what they want.
This advises women who want nothing more than to be a wife and mother to go for it and be up front about it. If this is not your career goal, then this advise wouldn't apply to you.
There is plenty of advise for young women who want to go to college and pursue careers outside of the home. That advise would be just as irrelevant to the women who would be interested in this article.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I have nothing against women who want family at the forefront of their lives. I think that women like that are overlooked a lot. But I think it's sad when people assume that any woman who isn't married is defective in some way. And I think girls who are convinced that they need a husband to have a full life are doing themselves a disservice.
My brother went to Ole Miss, and a lot of the girls there would answer the question, "What's your major?" with "I'm here for my M.R.S."
And there was nothing out of the ordinary about that, except they were more upfront about it than most girls are.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Possibly true, TanteShvester, but a woman who followed his advice would end up stuck with a similarly "lower quality" man.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Tante, it's statements like those in the paragraph below that make me doubt this is intended only to apply to those women seeking motherhood and family alone:
quote:Is motherhood instinctive or learned behavior? Both religion and science tell us that it is instinctive, much to the distaste of the feminist ideologists, who have never been overburdened by a solid grasp on either. But one need only watch the way in which a young girl mothers her stuffed animals to see the maternal instinct at work.
This is not to say behavior that contradicts these instincts cannot be learned, only that the individual will always possess a certain level of instinct – and, for the purposes of this discussion, it does not matter if those instincts are instilled by evolution or a Creator God – that must be overcome by years of propaganda and social pressure. [emphasis mine]
The idea that any woman who does NOT want to have children has been influenced by "years of propaganda and social pressure" is what I find repugnant. Heaven forbid that a woman actually choose to not have children.
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quote:Vox Day is a novelist and Christian libertarian. He is a member of the SFWA, Mensa and the Southern Baptist church, and has been down with Madden since 1992. (italics mine)
Down with Madden? Like is that one of his homies? Or is it some kind of medical condition? Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:...doubt this is intended only to apply to those women seeking motherhood and family alone
Yeah, but any woman who wasn't already on board with his message would laugh themselves silly over this article. Or work themselves up into a fine froth. The jerk is preaching to the choir, and anyone not singing soprano doesn't give a hoot.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: Unlike their female counterparts, men who say they don't want to get married or have kids usually mean it.
I find that offensive. I was always honest about wanting to have children 'someday' (while I actually thought I'd never find a man I wanted to marry, I assumed that if I DID, I would want children). I had even planned to work as a missionary in a Brazillian orphanage, because I loved working with children, but thought I might not ever get to have any of my own.
Now, though, I sort of think I liked kids better before I had any of my own Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
This is true, Tante. I guess I'm mainly reacting to the fact that this choir seems to be an inordinately large one. The choir also seems to be the one that's causing my husband and me to have to respond to things like, "Well, of course you'll want children later on, so you should have them now while you still can."
I get really frustrated by the attitude displayed in the article and in so many people (that all women want children) because it's so ridiculous and yet so widely held.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Remind me to stay far away from any woman who actually would follow these rules...
Nobody should have just one "sole" aspiration in life, whether it be having children, getting married, or succeeding in a career.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I just thought I'd get married when I met the person I wanted to grow old with, and until then, I'd just get on with my life. I guess I have been Doing It All Wrong. Posts: 74 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before. Remember, your choices narrow as you get older, while men's choices broaden.
It really sucks to find out you're generally considered to be of low quality. Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Megan, you're not the only one who doesn't want children. I frequently read livejournal communities, and there is one called Childfree. They use the term childfree, because they see Childless as meaning that there's something they're missing by not having children. Instead, they see it as a lifestyle choice, and are happy with their decision.
I happen to be childLESS. I fully want children someday, I just don't have the means to support them now.
Anyway, you might like the community. It's at http://www.livejournal.com/community/childfree . Some of the people there act mean and seem to really hate children, but a lot of them like children, but just don't want any of their own--for many reasons. There's a more "hardcore" group, at http://www.livejournal.com/community/cf_hardcore where they live up to their name. It can be offensive at times.
I read them because it can be interesting, although I don't share the sentiment.
Anyway... thought you might like it. There are even threads on both about that article.
Edit: Those links are full of bad language--well, the second one more than the first one. Just a warning...
quote:Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before. Remember, your choices narrow as you get older, while men's choices broaden.
It really sucks to find out you're generally considered to be of low quality.
I think Mr. Big Advice Man is stewing over ex-girlfriends, myself. Posts: 74 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
JannieJ -That is exactly right. This guy needs his friends to chip in and help him buy a clue.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Since women tend to go for bad boys when they're young, it's the nice guys that are left over when they end up settling down in their 30's. I think women who marry early generally marry a lower quality of man. Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
This guy is an idiot... I'm fairly sure that marriages between people who have married late (late 20s, early 30s, etc.) last longer than those who marry early... statistically speaking. And I haven't looked the statistics up... I just heard it somewhere, and happen to think it makes sense.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
zgator, that is entirely untrue, in my experience. I married at 23, and he has turned out to be the ideal husband for me. Though, I confess, I was mostly drawn to the sweet, geeky type (with a side of handsome, just so I don't sound too virtuous )
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:3. Settle earlier rather than later. I can't tell you how many women I know who blew off good men in their late teens and early 20s who now regret doing so. Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before. Remember, your choices narrow as you get older, while men's choices broaden.
Absolute baloney.
Now, if I had done nothing for my twenties but sit around, whimper that I'm not married, and wait for someone to come and save me, that probably wouldn't be true, because guys who are looking for a brainless baby factory will look for the newest model. However, those aren't the kind of guys you would want anyway.
Late teens??? That's ten shades of ick. If you're not married by 21 your choices are all going to suck? What is this person smoking??
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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That is true, yet it is also important to nurture the feeling. That is to say, there is an ebb and flow to such things. Love is not dependant upon them, in that love endures the timmes when the feelings are not in evidence. However, if you give up on feeling for your mate entirely, it can lead to a state of continuous misery. Misery doesn't preclude love, mind you, but I can say with certainty that it is not actually love.
Second edit: zgator, that may be true. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Actually, I don't agree with this. While there is a feeling called "love", I don't think it's the same thing.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I believe I would agree with this statement
quote:10. Remember that love is a choice, an action and a commitment, it is not a feeling
If you replaced the word "love" with "marriage".
Love, I think, is something entirely different. Hopefully it's a part of your marriage, too. But historically marriages can survive without it.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Sandra Day O'Conner took several years off in her career to be a full time mother. But hey, she doesn't fit this guy's narrow view, so why should we blame him for overlooking her
And funny... I put college first and now I work a couple of hours a day and am happily married. I married in my late twenties, no less. I even married a guy who wants kids and thinks family is more important than career. And to think I did it ALL WRONG. I should have just waited around in my parents' house and pestered men to marry me. *tries to imagine husband's reaction if I'd done that*
Posts: 700 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I'm with mph that love is an action and a commitment, not a feeling, though the actions and the commitment definitely produce lots of feelings. And the feelings that lead to loving someone are certainly helpful for keeping the momentum going. But ultimately, IMO, the greatest, most mature love is expressed in the absense of feeling, where the action and commitment of love is performed despite feelings to the contrary. It's the husband who stays with his wife of 50+ years even though she's become childlike and selfish, has forgotten their children and perhaps even him, and requires his constant presence to keep her from doing damage to herself or others. A feeling doesn't carry someone through times like that.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I disagree. It's precisely the feeling that keeps him going, the deep love he feels for her despite her faults or current problems.
I believe there are varying degrees of feelings, as with anything else, and that love of a spouse can and should be deeper and more lasting, more layered than a love of ice cream. That love can also contain duty, and responsibility, and loyalty, but it's love that makes him tenderly care for her and smile at the sparks of the woman he loves that still emerge.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
This is probably a chicken and egg disagreement. I think the action produces the feelings, not the other way round. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:10. Remember that love is a choice, an action and a commitment, it is not a feeling
I would rephrase: Love is a feeling that results in choices, actions, and commitment.
quote:It's the husband who stays with his wife of 50+ years even though she's become childlike and selfish, has forgotten their children and perhaps even him, and requires his constant presence to keep her from doing damage to herself or others. A feeling doesn't carry someone through times like that
...but I wouldn't necessarly consider that to be love. It's more like commitment or dedication. However, I do think love can carry someone through times like that. Maybe not love of her current state, but love of his memories and the times he's shared with her and the person that he knows is hidden somewhere beneath the layers that he now sees.
Edit: basically what Chris just said
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Hmm, my plans include getting married, having a career and having children all before I'm 30. Silly me, I should have realized that that's not going about things right.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I showed these to my wife and a number of her responses are priceless:
2) Make college and your career your priority at least until you get married. That way you won't feel preasured into getting a guy because you need someone to support you. After marriage you can divide up the work as you see fit.
3) Settle when you are ready, most of the people I know who settled early started a trend of settling often.
5) Be honest with guys. Remember they are people for partnership not investments for payment.
8) Actually very true
10) Love is a feeling. One of three things needed for an ideal marriage. (Love, Dedication, Partnership)
Posts: 68 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
'kay, more on the love is a feeling idea. If love is a feeling, is it love if you just feel it for someone but never do anything to show it? I mean, I think of love as something that belongs to someone else, not to me, even though I'm the one who feels it. In this, it differs from anger, which I may feel irrespective of another person, and which belongs to me not someone else. I'm probably not explaining this well, but it sort of goes the same direction of Faith and Works. If Faith is a feeling, is it worth anything if it doesn't produce action? And can you even call it faith or love if it just stays a feeling?
This isn't meant to be argumentative...I just have thought of love as a verb rather than a noun for so long that it's hard to think of it otherwise. Like that surge you feel when you're with your beloved...that's affection or admiration or lust, but until you reach out and make physical contact, or DO something, it's not love. IMO, of course. It's just the way I think of it.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I just have thought of love as a verb rather than a noun for so long that it's hard to think of it otherwise.
Fair enough. I tend to treat it as a noun and a verb, with a world of different levels and applications.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Wow, this dude has some *serious* issues and pre-conceived notions. I don't necessarily disagree with his premise, but his delivery is so condescending and distasteful it makes me feel like retching.
His scorn towards an elderly unmarried and childless woman is *very* telling. I doubt he would be so scornful of a man in the same situation.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
The fact that he couches his distaste in the form of "advice" is the really appalling thing to me.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Our society seems to have a history of thinking of "old maids" (women who have never married and are older) with scorn, considering them worthless to society. There is not near so much stigma towards men in the same state. At least, that is how it seems to me.
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