posted
Today's Washington Post had articles confirming abuse of detainees by Iraqi forces. This is getting a lot of attention from the US military advisors because, as they put it, it could undermine the trust of the Iraqi people in the new government.
Meanwhile, a group of five Britons recently released from Saudi Arabia are coming forward with stories of their treatment by our allies and trading partners. Of course, the Saudies are denying it, but Human Rights Watch (a usually credible source) is saying that the information sounds similar to other reports they've had of prisoner abuse by the Saudi government.
Of course, it is also worth noting that the US has handed over prisoners to the Saudis (or had them arrest on our behalf).
And we're working directly with and training the Iraqi Security forces.
Having recently gone through our own scandal in this regard (and still not quite done with it), I suspect that we are probably getting some odd reactions when we chide our partners for their misbehavior. But I have to say that I'm still glad we are being outspoken against (at least) the Iraqi abuses. This cannot be tolerated if we truly want freedom and democracy in Iraq.
As for the Saudis, I think they make very strange bedfellows. I always have thought that. It's a retched society that, if it didn't own huge oil fields, we would have nothing to do with. The fact that they own all that oil has helped the developed countries turn a blind eye to the truly sick nature of their ruling family, the anti-democratic and terrorism-sponsoring activities of that regime.
And sure, maybe compared to the Ayatollahs or the Saddams, they aren't as bad. But they are still awful and we never say word one about what a bunch of malignant despots they are.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Honestly though, why can't there be torture in Iraq if they want a democracy? Maybe it's just my hobby-horse but there's certainly nothing about democracy that is instrinsically against torture. In many cases, the disallowal of torture is decidedly undemocratic. It bothers me that we push democracy without the understanding of the undemocratic system of personal rights and freedoms that undergirds our democracy.
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On another democracy note, if Saudi Arabia goes democratic without a drastic change in the populace, it's going to be very bad news for us. They hate us, for many reasons, not a few of them good ones. We need to be friends with the House of Saud for as long as the people hate us and we're dependent on their oil.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
"there's certainly nothing about democracy that is instrinsically against torture"
If democracy entails a basic respect for and the equality of every individual person--and the most convincing arguments I've heard for democracy were grounded in those two principles-- then there is something anti-democratic about torture.
If it just means majority rule, then go ahead and string them up.
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