posted
Watching the History Channel last night, I began thinking there are three types of leaders.
There are those who reward the good and punish the bad. This is the type of learder President Bush is trying to be. However, the definition of good and bad are debatable.
There are those, not so noble, who reward the loyal and punish those who are against them. They may assume this is rewarding the Good and punishing the bad, but in truth it is a self-centered politics, the politics of ego. This is the type of leader Tom Delay is turning out to be. Even other Republicans remark how vindictive and threatening he can be when they disagree with him.
Then there are those who are more cowardly. They reward those with power and punish those without it. This is the type of leader that Tom Bolton appears to be, fawning to those who have power over him and thumping anyone below him.
There is another type of leader. We've seen his like only a few times. I am refering the a true Christian leader who like Christ, does not reward or punish, but pushes the good and the bad, the powerful and the powerless, those who agree with him and those who do not, to look into themselves to become better people.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:I am refering the a true Christian leader who like Christ, does not reward or punish, but pushes the good and the bad, the powerful and the powerless, those who agree with him and those who do not, to look into themselves to become better people.
You're wrong about Christ not punishing the wicked.
quote: St. Matthew 25 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
posted
Christ declaring people to be damned does not mean that he caused them to be damned. Stating the the "punishment" is not the same as punishing.
Posts: 751 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Hmm. We disagree, Porter-- just as Christ takes an active part in being merciful to us, so he takes an active role in our punishment.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:We disagree, Porter-- just as Christ takes an active part in being merciful to us, so he takes an active role in our punishment.
Actually, I didn't say what my belief is. I just said that the verse you quoted does not "prove" that He punishes anybody.
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posted
Regardless of who or what is doing the punishing, it is certain that there were definite unpleasant consequences to not following the Lord.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: Christ declaring people to be damned does not mean that he caused them to be damned. Stating the the "punishment" is not the same as punishing.
But isn't this the same as the Medieval Church naming heretics as 'bad', then handing them off to the lay courts because they can't actually inflict the damage, who then hires a hangman? Who is doing the punishing? The church? The layman? or is it only the person who is killing, or inflicting pain? Or is it all three? Or could it be just the courts and the church, because the hangman is only doing his job?
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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It could also be like a parent telling their child that if they play with fire, they could get burned. If they go ahead and defy the parent, you can't blame the parent for inflicting pain on the child, just because they warned about the pain.
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posted
But then who does the punishing? In that way, no one punishes except for the person who has broken the law. You are punishing yourself.
I recognise that that is definately the case however, I do not think that allows the person who gave the ultimatum to not also culpable an is also the punisher.
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Yeah, I'm talking to you, you little hippie freaks. Didn't I tell you to stop messing around on the Capitol lawn? Don't act like you didn't hear me when I stuck my head out the window earlier. I saw you look up. I saw you laughing. Punks! I told you to clear out and take your games somewhere else. Then, not 15 minutes later, this thing sails right through the window and interrupts deliberations of the House Committee on Ways and Means.
Oh yeah? Is that so? Well, guess what. It's Tom DeLay's Frisbee now.
So, this would be the "it's my frisbee, now" style of leadership.
posted
Forget about locking the child in their room -- I'm just talking about getting burned.
The idea is that just as getting burned is a natural consequence of touching fire, damnation is a natural consequence of some things.
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posted
separation from God/damnation is a natural outcome of sin. Just as being burned is a natural outcome of sticking your hand in the fire.
Christ can prevent that natrual separation, but only if you ask him to. If you refuse to ask for help, I don't see how him allowing you to face the natural consequenses of your act is him punishing you.
I don't really see how fire not being able to forgive matches up here. Christ is not the fire (or the cause of damnation) our own acts are the cause of that. Christ is the one who prevents the damnation/or burn that comes from our actions, if we only ask him.
Oh, and Christ did not whip the money changers. He drove them out of the temple, and overturned the tables They were not punished...but they were prevented from scamming people anymore (Matthew 12-15; Mark 11:15-17; Luke: 19:47, 48)
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Damn. Leave it to the Christians to totally miss the point.
What Dan meant to say was "leader like [the agnostic's idealized version of] Christ."
However, Dan, you must have missed the $400 million in Bush's lastest request for $80 billion for the Iraqi war for the "solidarity initiative." We are rewarding those who were with us, and punishing or ignoring those who were not with us, or "against us." Ignore France, Punish Germany and Reward Russia, according to Condoleezza Rice.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
From my rereading of the new testament, most of Christ's teachings were designed to get people to be better. He offered his teachings to sinners both common and priestly.
However, he knew that some would not heed his teachings, so would be condemned to sin and hell. He did not condemn them, but warned that his father would.
I admit I am not done rereading all of the New Testament, and am no biblical scholar, so that idea may be my personal bias.
It doesn't matter with the main comments, that we need to examine which type of leaders we are following, to see whom they are favoring and whom they are punishing.
Punishing those who disagree with us, while rewarding those who support us is common and human. However, when we talk like we represent all that is good in the world, but then show favoritism, our talk of Good and Bad seems cheap and our crusade seems a mockery.
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posted
Is it really favoritism to reward the hound that protects your home, and to euthanize the dog with rabies?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
No. But it is favoritism to feed the dog that licks your face and euthenise the ones that bark at you to protect their own master's home.
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posted
man, I think this thread has taken the analogies a step too far.
One person starts...and I guess all the rest of us felt the need to continue it...but sheesh, it is starting to get a bit overboard.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Oh, and Christ did not whip the money changers. He drove them out of the temple, and overturned the tables They were not punished...but they were prevented from scamming people anymore (Matthew 12-15; Mark 11:15-17; Luke: 19:47, 48)
Oh, sorry. I can't seem to find my copy of the New Testament, or I'd have tried to look it up first. Where did I get the idea that he whipped them, I wonder? Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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