We haven't been in ages, and Sundays on Hatrack are so slooow, it is a gentle but firm kick in the buttocks.
The problem is, the church we have been going to is in turmoil, and has been for a while. We travel a few towns over to go there, because it is the church of some family friends, and it has always been warm and inviting.
Now, the new(well, three years now, so not really new) minister is causing all sorts of upheaval. At first I thought it was the old guard being unwilling to change, but now I see it more as a two way street. Either way, the street no longer feels safe to walk on. It makes me sad, but sitting in the church, I feel my nerves at the surface, when I want to relax and focus on worship.
Instead of going to the church in town, or to another church, I have been avoiding going entirely.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Pssssst... I left my church about 6 months ago. I told myself I'd start going to a new one before Easter... hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, I feel the same way.
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Why did you leave it, ElJay?
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Boon
unregistered
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My grandma (wife of a retired preacher and normally a very wise woman) recently called her grandchildren and great grandchildren a "pack of heathens" because we don't go to church. It's not that I object to "church" persay, I just don't feel motivated enough to get dressed and drive somewhere I don't feel comfortable. Comfortable as in welcome, embraced, loved, accepted, or even known. I'm too self-consious to just show up at a church where I don't know anybody and plop myself down in a pew.
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I just started to type out my answer, and realized it's pretty long, and I have to go pick up my driver's license... the guy at the motorcycle place took it yesterday to make a copy and forgot to give it back. He lives nearby, so I told him I'd swing over at 10:00 this morning. I'll answer you fully when I get back.
(I did not end up buying the motorcycle... we could not agree on a price. Maybe next time)
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(Whispers to fellow conspirators) Comrades, our Nefarious Plan (tm) is succeeding! The faithful are becoming apostate! Soon they shall all fall under the dominion of our master Satan! All hail the Evil Atheist Conspiracy (tm)! (Rubs hands, cackles in glee! Uses extra exclamation marks for emphasis! Whether needed or not! BWA-HA-HA!)
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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It is a start-up church, a kinda "alternative' outreach of a larger, established church that noticed people in my general age range weren't being reached in our area. They hired a really awesome minister and a guitarist to start a band, (we had three great bands at the time I left, and they're working on a second CD now,) did some market research, and let them loose. I joined within the first 6 months... that was about 7 years ago. I got really involved, to the point where when the original minister felt called to leave, I headed up the search party for a new minister. I had been on our version of a church council for about 4 years at that point.
The search took a long time, and the head minister from our sponsor church started throwing his weight around. He neglected to mention an important detail to the first candidate we offered the job to, and she pulled out after she had already been introduced to the staff and everything. We had another canidate that we had been hard torn between the two, and we offered the position to him. He accepted, and then again it the "orientation" with our sponsor's head pastor, problems came up. The head pastor decided he couldn't work with the candidate, withdrew the offer, and refused to tell us why.
In the meantime, our "community life" guy and the youth pastor from our sponsor church had been working together to fill the pastor role, so we didn't have an interim pastor in the way most churches do during a search. (Although my church just positions itself as Christian, our sponsor church is Lutheran, and we followed Lutheran practices, which seemed somewhat odd to me, coming from a tradition where ministers are appointed, not hired.) The community life position was a part time job, and he was doing way more work than he was hired for, and not being paid extra for it. The youth pastor is a great guy, but very obviously a youth pastor. That was his calling, that's what he wanted to do, and that's what he was very good at. Preaching was not something he was very good at. And we were supposed to be this edgy, alternative church, with a rock band (I'm not talking Christian Contemporary here, they write their own songs and are good enough that they play at secular clubs around town,) and thoughtful, smart, sermons that resonate with people who don't feel they fit in a "traditional" church.
So, with our original pastor gone, giving had dropped dramatically. I guess that's normal, but since we were basically just an outreach ministry of our sponsor church, we didn't have our own finance people watching the numbers, and to the sponsor church's finance person we were kinda an afterthought. Nobody noticed, until after the second candidate fell through. Then it was close to the end of the year, someone noticed we were way behind budget, and couldn't really afford to hire a new minister. This noticing all happened within the sponsor church, and the head pastor came to our next council meeting, broke the news, and presented a plan to deal with the problem... have the youth pastor serve as an interim pastor for 1 - 2 years so we would have some stability, the sponsor church would get an intern from the local seminary to help out with his normal duties, and work offerings back up to the point where we could afford to hire someone.
I had misgivings about this plan, as did some of the other council members, but we didn't have much choice. It was presented to us like we had a choice, certainly, but if we said no we would have had to present them with an alternative, workable plan, in a very short timeframe. I wish they would have involved us as soon as they knew there was a problem, they way they did it it made it pretty obvious that they were the ones with the purse strings and we didn't have much choice. At that time we had one full-time employee, the music guy, and two part time employees, the community life guy and an office manager. From a purely practical viewpoint, what I thought we should do is eliminate the two part time positions and hire a pastor. It seemed like a no-brainer that having a full-time, dedicated pastor for the church was much more important. The two problems being that we didn't have a candidate to hire, and no prospects in the wings, and that the two people I would want to lay off were all of our friends. The office manager more mine than anyone else's, (She no longer works there and I'm going out to a jazz club with her tonight. yay!) the community life guy, however, was very involved, he and his wife had been members of the church before he was hired, and his wife had recently been laid-off, too. No way anyone was going to go for that, I didn't even suggest it.
So. I figured it was only a year or two, I could deal with it. I loved the church, I had worked hard at keeping it viable, and I could keep going for the community and music, and find a way to be fed spiritually through small groups or personal reading. I did, however, step down from the council... when we started terms were supposed to be a max of 2 years, and I (and some other people) had just kept putting it off due to not having a good replacement process in place and continual emergencies. I kinda realized that the only way to fix those issues was to step down, and so I found a replacement and did so, and when the others saw I was serious the two who had been on as long as I had did so as well. (That still left experienced people there, we didn't just abandon a bunch of newbies with no help.)
So, I over-estimated my ability to deal with really bad sermons. It didn't help that the original pastor had been beyond fabulous, and that whenever I went to visit Dana for the weekend I got to hear her preach. Definitely did not help make the sermons at my church more tolerable by comparison. I started going to church less, it was just painful. And sometimes irritating... not theological fallacies, which I honestly might not have noticed, but could call him on if I did. Logical issues, of the sort that if he was saying them in the first place he wouldn't understand when I tried to explain, over simplifying, using the same illustration three weeks running, and rah-rah smugness about how wonderful our church was, right after tearing down other churches for focusing on the wrong things. I thought maybe I'd take a break.
As soon as I started my "break," they announced that they were considering changing youth pastor from interim solution to straight-out pastor, and that there would be a community vote. I knew a lot of other people liked him, and if that was what they wanted I didn't want to add a bunch of negativity to the mix. My biggest problem was that I knew this wasn't what HE wanted, we'd talked about it several times and he made it quite clear that he wouldn't be happy staying in the position more than a year or so, that he really loved working with kids, felt like that was what he was called to do, and was willing to work with us for a year or two because we needed it and he wanted to help, but then he was going back to his real job. At this point I was far enough removed that I wasn't going to go back and talk to him about it. I abstained from the vote, and decided that if it passed, I just wouldn't be going back. It did, and I didn't.
I talked to my friend the office manager shortly after the vote, which was about the time she was leaving her position. I didn't even have to bring it up, and she basically told me that my suspicions were correct, the head pastor had basically forced it on the youth pastor to stay, and it wasn't something he was doing by choice.
This is long enough, so I won't go into how their actions after I left confirmed my decision that it wasn't the right place for me. So that's basically what happened... I've looked into a couple of other churches, but I haven't even gone to visit any. I'd like to go back to a United Methodist church, it's what I was raised in and what I feel most comfortable with. There's a really neat one not too far away. But it's huge , and I've been going to a small, intimate church for the last seven years. With a really kick-ass, innovative band, that plays music I would go out to a club and dance to. It's going to be hard to sing traditional hymns again, even though I love them. I've checked out the other "alt" churches around, and none of them seem like a good fit. Most are pretty conservative baptist in theology, and that's just not me. So I think I'm going to end up being lethargic a little while longer.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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And quids, it just wasn't the right bike. It had aftermarket pipes on it that they had to charge extgra for, and since I don't particularly care for loud pipes I wasn't willing to pay extra for them. I came up to within $200 of them, and they wouldn't come down anymore, so no deal. *shrug* I'll find another one.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: Comfortable as in welcome, embraced, loved, accepted, or even known. I'm too self-consious to just show up at a church where I don't know anybody and plop myself down in a pew.
All of these usually take time, and that time usually includes at least some (sometimes a great deal of) discomfort. While there are certainly some congregations which will go out of their way to bring new people to church and make them feel welcome, more often it takes some decision on the part of the individual, and a willingness to be uncomfortable until they become familiar with the congregation. It does help to have friends and/or family for company -- makes the transition easier if you have someone to lean on or commiserate with so it's not all so unfamiliar.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:I just stop going because it was all ritual based, not faith based.
This is a criticism often levied against my own Church (I'm Roman Catholic), and I've never quite understood it. Perhaps it's a personality difference (If I recall correctly, C.S. Lewis found "High" rituals distasteful.)
To me, the rituals are faith-based, at least the ones I'm most familiar with. Sure, the rituals allow someone to "coast" through Mass without really reflecting on the import behind the rituals, but certainly people can also coast through a non-ritual-based service.
About 3 years ago I read a detailed description of the Mass, especially the Eucharistic Prayer, and it gave me a whole new appreciation for the rituals. It's not that the detailed description taught me much, if anything, I didn't know before. Rather, it emphasized exactly what it is we celebrate each Sunday.
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Dag, reading through that also helped me at one point. I should do that again. When I visited my dad, I found all of my old theology books and other random cool stuff I had from working with campus ministry in college (which'd be a catholic college).
Boon, I once had a monk call my entire class a bunch of heretics. Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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So am I Dag. The priests I have had have all been great. It's just the people at the churches I was at. A lot were nice people, but we had more than our fair share of backstabbing.....I can't go on after that. My sister saw more of it than me. And she was involved in the church. She isn't now because she is moving to an apartment with her fiance.
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Dag, I was baptised Catholic, raised Methodist until 13, then confirmed Catholic.
I always loved the rituals. It was mind-freeing, as I could lose myself, and did not have to think or worry about who the pastor was going to be, and all those things. I was turned off not by the rituals, but by the collection agency style of money gathering practiced in my town. "If we do not get your donation for the new church by such-and-such date, you will no longer be a member of this church."
Bye, then.
Now that I have been in a church that is supposed to be more personal and friendly, yet is more like middle school, I am thinking of returning.
Well, I'm not so sure. The kids have grown up in the Congregational church, and would have to get first communion with older kids. I did that, and it was not such a big deal, but I think it might be for them. I think I will take them to mass a few times and see how they feel.
The fact is, I am stymied right now, and unhappy with it.
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Ha. In Phoenix, my mom and I used to say about our fellow parishioners: They'll shake your hand and assure you that peace is with you, but run you down in the parking lot after church. There were never coffee hours in the Catholic churches I attended. And to be perfectly honest, I miss the weak coffee, and those little ham salad sandwiches.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Boon (and anyone who wants to go to church but doesn’t want to walk into a new place where they don’t know anyone), I would be happy to contact a United Methodist Church in your area and have them send someone out to call on you. Then you’d have someone you know to sit with. Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:you people simply have too many churches to choose from.
It so true, in England, we had the Anglican Church. That was it. It was a very large and pretty church which hardly anyone went to but it was the major church.
And there was a Kingdom Hall, I think, and perhaps some other Protestant division, but that's all.
There's so much choice in North America!
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Off what the topic has become, but in keeping with the thread title...
Sunday mornings at Hatrack make me miss the days - 20 years ago or so - when the local PBS station played a whole story arc (2-4 episodes) of Doctor Who every Sunday morning. I was living in Denver at the time.
Then I could sit down afterward and talk about the Doctor Who story of the day here at Hatrack.
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Sunday mornings at Hatrack make me miss Tom Hatten and two hours of Popeye (et al). And Davey & Goliath, I guess, a little.
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*snort* Teshi, I can think of several protestant denominations in England just off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more that I don't know about.
The trouble is, they're often lumped all together as "non-conformists," so you don't hear as much about them individually.
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dkw, I don't mean in England as a whole I mean in the town where I lived. Sure there are tons of churches in England, probably just as many as anywhere else!
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Wow. It must be in the air. I pulled up stakes with the Lutheran church I had been attending - and VERY active in - since Nathan was a wee thing several months ago.
I started attending the local Episcopal church which offered a wide variety of services throughout the week, had much better diversity of people, and generally (IMHO) a far better attitude.
Of course, they are the local diocesan outreach center, too, so their orientation is more outward.
But I did need to (and still do) remember that I am new, and just as they welcome new folks, I also need to show interest in them and their activities. It really is a 2-way street.
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Oh. That's true in most of small town America, too. In my town there are three churches, folks who want a different "flavor" have to drive a bit.
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Hey, here, if you want another flavor, just turn around. We have a Catholic church (and monastery) just down the road, a one minute walk away. The local mosque is a five minute walk away. There's a Buddhist temple close enough that I can hear them during Poya days, although I don't know where it's actually located. But I have no idea how close the nearest Hindu Kovil is - probably within a five or ten minute drive. Man, those things are bizarre!
There's one Kovil in downtown Colombo that's just huge! It's probably a hundred feet tall, and the outer wall is sloped in with carvings of arms, legs, and other body parts. Blue. Bizarro, man!
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My step father-in-law was born Hindu, and ended up being a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka. He was pretty well know there, actually. Forget where he lived.
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In the past three generations on my mom's side, there was a Mother Superior in a Catholic convent, die-hard Methodists, Anglicans, lapsed Presbytarians, and a Mormon. It seemed like quite a spread, although all Christian unless you count the don't-talk-to-me-about-religion people as non-Christian.
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Elizabeth - small world. And a little bizarre - in my mind - to be born Hindu and convert to Buddhism and become a monk - as in, here. Maybe for the rest of the world, not so much so, but here, people are so fiercely one thing or another and tend to not change. Religious identity is so firmly entrenched with cultural and ethnic identities.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yes, Quid. I think that he is a tortured soul, in many ways, and is so disrespectd as an American. He an my mother in law live in an apartment in the basement of my sister in law's house. They make it very clear they do not like the smell of his cooking. He needs to go to India at least once every two years. It must be hoorid to be a revered monk, and then a man whose samosas are disdained.
I am the only one on the family who begs for curry. Some of the Hatrackers had some of his chicken curry. As he says, "In India, they would say this was sh**," but I'm not complaining!
I will try to fond the name of the ashram he lived in when in Sri Lanka. He actually came to the US in saffron robes, to study, and met my husband's aunt, who introduced him to his mother. over time, they became frends, he taught her to meditate, and she was able to meditate herself out of an abusive marriage.
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That's true in most of small town America, too. In my town there are three churches, folks who want a different "flavor" have to drive a bit.
