posted
There have been many rumors that video games, such as Halo, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Diablo, and others, have been very addicting and I wondered does anyone have a comment or assurance that this rumor is true or not true? Posts: 26 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I have a tendency to get sucked into things. That thing can be reading books, playing music, or playing video games.
Video games tend to suck me in more than anything else, and relinquish their hold much more reluctantly. There have been many times when I have forced myself to to play any games at all for a week, just so that I can come back with a better perspective.
edit: I don't think it's so much having a feeble mind or a strong mind, but having a mind that is susceptible to such things. Which, I guess, you could qualify as being feeble in this narrow instance, but I don't think it translates as being strong or weak minded in other regards.
Also, I don't think it's really an addiction. Addiction is something that I reserve for something that is not just in your mind, but where your body is addicted as well as your mind.
posted
Evertything that gives pleasure has the opportunity to become very seductive.
I agree with Alexey Pajitnov, who created Tetris. i heard him speak once, and here is the exact quote, edited a bit for family viewing:
"What are people going to do otherwise? Watch the (expletive) TV? Read a(n expletive) book? What makes those so much (expletive) better than a game?"
A friend of a friend is a TV producer. She kind of confronted me over this issue once, since she had been considering doing a story on it for the local news. My reponse was, "I'd be happy to see you do a story about that. As long as you couple it with a story about all the people who watch TV all day long and never do anything else, about all those kids who come home at night and turn on the tube then watch until bedtime. Because back in the day, the newspapers were full of stoies about that. Why? Because it was new, becuse it threatened them, and because it was easy to appeal to an older, conservative demographic without doing any real work to understand the way new cultural forces both enhance and disrupt life as we know it."
She never did the story.
Posts: 720 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Expletive! Books tend to suck me in like that. So much that I don't want to do anything but read them until I am finished. I also like video games like FFX and the Sims 2. Video games are fun, they are relaxing and stressful at the same time. They're better than television because at least they are somewhat interactive. You're trying to solve a puzzle or rescue a character. A good video game is as good as a movie and a book rolled into one with good music. Give them a chance, they are not all shoot em up games that corrupt youth. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: I have one thought that some feeble minds are easily seduced by certain video games
Some very intelligent people can be obsessive about video games, or obsess about other things.
Same with some very stupid people.
Intelligence and obsessive behavior are two different things, and "feeble minds" is not a descriptive phrase for obsession or addiction, it's very judge-y.
posted
Well, yeah, Ketch (I can't call you "KQ," that's a local radio station I hate), but witness all the stories about that on TV. I know you were being snarky, but the stories are the same thing.
Will Wright (who created Sim City and The Sims) was ambushed by Nightline once with a story on this topic. The reporter and producer they sent to interview him had NEVER played video games before. They were condescending to him on the air. I have a hard time watching Nightline after that.
(I don't know Will, but I chatted him up on a street corner at the same conference where I heard Pajitnov speak. What can I say? He and Sid Meier are my heroes.)
Posts: 720 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:What makes those so much (expletive) better than a game?
I'll give you some reasons.
I think that story telling is important, and that good stories make a difference for good in our lives. Stories help us understand ourselves and others better. We explore what is right and wrong, what is good and bad, what is helpful and unhelpful through stories.
One could even make the case that the essence of who we are is determined by the stories we choose to tell ourselves.
This is why TV shows and books are able to be of greater value than a game like Tetris -- they are able to enrich our souls. True, most don't rise to that, but a few do.
posted
But certainly video game technology is moving to the point where they are capable of it, if it's not already there.
In fact, with the ability for the "reader" to interact, I'd say it has far more possibilities to engage the imagination and create enobling stories than movies or television.
If the stories we tell ourselves are important, than technology that enables the reader to fine-tune the story being told has the potential for great good.
posted
Depends on how you define addiction. Certainly it is possible to use video games as the primary or sole means of releasing the happy neurotransmitters. It is also possible to put a high enough priority on them to cause most others to deem the level of use unhealthy. But it is no worse than marijuana - it is easy to stop any time you want to, but you may not want to. If they occupy most of your mind, you could easily suffer a moderate psychological withdrawal, especially if they were also the primary means of socialization.
Of course, addiction is an overused word. Caffeine has worse a physical withdrawal than cocaine, but most people I know would consider cocaine the more addictive substance.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
The problem there, Porter, is that the majority of people who consume entertainment in the world conume "junk food" entertainment.
I mean, really? What do we learn about ourselves from "Friends?" That we like pretty girls and handsome boys who have shallow lives? I think we all knew that by junior high.
I say this as someone who watches CSI religiously, too. Junk food. But entertaining.
We'll get there with interactive entertainment. We need to go through a period of maturation before we get there. And we will always want/need junk food, too. Have you seen a lot of 18th century English "literature?" Junk food.
Posts: 720 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Then you've never played Final Fantasy 7,8,9, or 10. They have a good plot, strong interesting characters in between the monster fights. Especially FF10. I love that game. It's got one of the best heriones in it ever. And also good graphics. Besides, just about 90% of the shows on television are crap these days.. I get nothing from sitcoms except an angry feeling knowing that these people are making so much money to put such terrible programs on.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:In fact, with the ability for the "reader" to interact, I'd say it has far more possibilities to engage the imagination and create enobling stories than movies or television.
I don't think I agree. Just going around and doing things isn't really a story to me -- it's just a bunch of stuff happening.
Now, it might be possible for this to happen some day. All I can really say is that I haven't really seen any indication of it happening yet. The storytelling aspect of games tends to be not much beoyond Tetris -- it's not really a story, it's a puzzle to be solved.
Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:The problem there, Porter, is that the majority of people who consume entertainment in the world conume "junk food" entertainment.
I mean, really? What do we learn about ourselves from "Friends?" That we like pretty girls and handsome boys who have shallow lives? I think we all knew that by junior high.
I agree, and I had the same thought about "Friends" when I made my first post. Junk food for the soul is not an inherently bad thing. Except for the sexual content which I take issue with, Friends for the most part is pretty much on par with Tetris -- fun and entertaining, but not enriching.
I'm just making the point that books and TV shows can rise far above that, while in my experience video games have failed to do so yet.
And Synestasia, you are right -- I have never played any of the Final Fantasy games.
Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
What about a massively multiplay RPG that was really an RPG? If a DM was good enough, or a computer could be a good enough DM, that might have the potential to be more attractive than real life for susceptible individuals. Especially if enough advances were made in direct neural interfaces, so that the players actually saw, heard, smelt, etc.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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porter, the final fantasy games are, in many ways, animated tales more than games. you can take a break from the story to go kill monsters, but when it's all said and done - you've witnessed and played part in a heroic tale.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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True VR may well be a problem for society, but I think even a non-VR, well-implemented online RPG would be more reinforcing than anything currently on the market.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Put me down for Final Fantasies and Sims 2. I can do marathon sessions with those.
I believe OSC has gone on record as saying that people that plays Sims are lacking in their real lives.
Sims 2 can take a lot of strategy and creativity. Some of the house designs are incredible and would be good practice for a couple different careers.
FFs are just these vast worlds that also take stategy and have a lot of challenges that take brains. The message is always about friendship and honor. Michelle
posted
He has? But they are so much fun, until the cycle ends, and then I hang the game up for a while. but, I always go back to make Kelly have more babies because she always wants more babies and to make more couples gay and straight. Also, the expansion pack is coming out next week. I will RESIST! i love the themes of FF.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ok let me get this straight. If the intellectual level is not to blame for the obbsession for an object then what exactly is? Posts: 26 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Fine then lets break it down. What is this "addictive personality" that is such a big deal and important factor? Posts: 26 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: I think that story telling is important, and that good stories make a difference for good in our lives. Stories help us understand ourselves and others better. We explore what is right and wrong, what is good and bad, what is helpful and unhelpful through stories.
One could even make the case that the essence of who we are is determined by the stories we choose to tell ourselves.
This is why TV shows and books are able to be of greater value than a game like Tetris -- they are able to enrich our souls. True, most don't rise to that, but a few do.
I've never seen a video game that does.
Then clearly you've either not been playing video games or been playing the wrong ones.
The vast majority of video games that are more than just puzzle games have plots. Many have intricate and detailed plots that draw you in as much as any good book or movie. Better even becuase you play the main character and your actions make a difference. Ever played Baldurs Gate? Morrowind? The FF series? ALL computer games that are RPGs have intricate, detailed and long plots with many sub plots. They explore all sorts of things. They do it in a different way from books however.
What about those first person shooters everyone berates as violent junk? Ever played Marathon(a very early one by Bungie)? Oni? Halo? Half-life? Half-Life 2? Heck even Doom 3! They all have detailed plots which slowly unravel as the character blasts his/her way through the levels. And then you get to the history oriented FPSs such as Medal of Honor, Call of Duty and Battle Field:1942. They tell a true story, the story of history, often with a fictional plot worked in same as any good historical fiction. Thats what drives many people to play them: the plot. At least thats what drives me.
What about MUDs and MMORPGs? In those games the players make up the plot as they go along. They are entire virtual worlds, with their own societies, cultures, and histories known to their players. Often they mimick worlds conceived in books and movies such as the many Tolkien muds that try to create a virtual version of Tolkien's Middle Earth or Earth and Beyond a Star Trek MMORPG.
Video games are on level with books and TV/movies for story telling. Its just a different kind of story telling, a new medium, where the player takes part in the story instead of just hearing it or watching it play out. And its still in (relatively) the early stages of its developement. Its getting better all the time.
Aside from story telling, games offer something that books and movies NEVER offered and CANNOT offer. The ability to learn by doing. What do you think all the sim games are? They allow you to simulate being mayor of a city, owner of a large office tower and such things and thereby learn how it works. They weren't very detailed or accurate simulations at first, by they're getting better all the time, and these days they are very good. Sim City 3 was incredibly complex and made my head spin, I've heard Sim City 4 is even more so. The US Army has turned to video games to train soldiers tactics and team work. What do you think America's Army is (aside from a recruiting ploy)? Heck, thats the premise behind much of Ender's Game, video games being used to train soldiers! And they a good for teaching far more than that. There's a whole genre of MUDs devoted to educating, I've never played them so I don't know how they do it but I know their their. Many of the games I first played were about teaching young kids things like math and history. Remember Number Crunchers? Oregan Trail?
I'm sick of hearing about video games being worthless trash and not comparing to books and movies or TV. In terms of cultural value video games are as good as books and movies or TV. They are a different medium for doing the same thing and more.
posted
DL, in my case, it's a genetic tendency to... become addicted to things. Mostly alcohol in my relatives, but also food, caffiene, all kinds of things. And not a one of us is "weak-minded".
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Ultimately I conclude that the obsessions for objects come from two factors the quality of the object that is held dear and/or I repeat and/or the intelectual level of the human being in this case. Posts: 26 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Then clearly you've either not been playing video games or been playing the wrong ones.
It could be, but might it be possible that we simply disagree?
quote:Ever played Baldurs Gate? Morrowind? The FF series? ALL computer games that are RPGs have intricate, detailed and long plots with many sub plots. They explore all sorts of things. They do it in a different way from books however.
I have never really enjoyed computer RGPs that much, because it takes away my favorite part of role-playing -- developing the character. The only one I've played in recent years is "Neverwinter Nights", which I enjoyed, but not because of the storytelling.
quote:What about those first person shooters everyone berates as violent junk?
Those are my favorite games.
quote:Ever played Marathon(a very early one by Bungie)? Oni? Halo? Half-life? Half-Life 2? Heck even Doom 3!
I have played all of those except for HL2, and enjoyed them all.
quote:They all have detailed plots which slowly unravel as the character blasts his/her way through the levels.
Here we're going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, they all had plots, but mostly as an excuse to get you into situations where you have to kill lots of monsters. It's like popcorn action movies -- "How can we get our hero into a situation where he jumps out of an exloding skyscraper into a helicopter?"
quote:And then you get to the history oriented FPSs such as Medal of Honor, Call of Duty and Battle Field:1942. They tell a true story, the story of history, often with a fictional plot worked in same as any good historical fiction. Thats what drives many people to play them:
I've only played BF:1942 out of those, but I disagree again. All I cared about was the tactical situation of the individual scenarios while playing those games. What am I trying to accomplish, and what stands in my way? It was very fun, but it was much more problem solving than story telling.
quote:Video games are on level with books and TV/movies for story telling. Its just a different kind of story telling, a new medium, where the player takes part in the story instead of just hearing it or watching it play out. And its still in (relatively) the early stages of its developement. Its getting better all the time.
I disagree that it is on the same level as books, TV, and movies, all of which are pretty mature media. Gaming is a new medium, and it is getting better. There may come a day when I think it is on the same level. But as I said before, that day is not today.
This is not me just being a luddite and saying that video games are trash. I just don't think that they are good at storytelling yet.
quote:What about MUDs and MMORPGs? In those games the players make up the plot as they go along. They are entire virtual worlds, with their own societies, cultures, and histories known to their players. Often they mimick worlds conceived in books and movies such as the many Tolkien muds that try to create a virtual version of Tolkien's Middle Earth or Earth and Beyond a Star Trek MMORPG.
I have never been involved in any of those, so I don't have a response to that.
quote:Aside from story telling, games offer something that books and movies NEVER offered and CANNOT offer. The ability to learn by doing.
I completely agree. There are many things that games can do that, for instance, books cannot.
There are also many things that sports can do that books, TV, movies, and video games cannot. They are different things.
But that doesn't change the fact that, IMO, neither sports nor video games are as good at storytelling as the other media I have mentioned.
quote:I'm sick of hearing about video games being worthless trash and not comparing to books and movies or TV. In terms of cultural value video games are as good as books and movies or TV. They are a different medium for doing the same thing and more.
I never said anything of the kind. I think you are arguing with what other people have said in the past, not with what I have said here.
posted
I wouldn't use the term addictive personality, since I think addictions involve neurology. It can be genetic or the result of a need to cope, but I think some people have more receptors for some neurotransmitters. This creates a supply crisis for the neurotransmitters and the person has to engage in behaviors that stimulate overproduction.
But it is increased brain activity, which is why so many writers and artists are alcoholics or users of other types of mood altering stuff. You don't have to do that stuff to be brilliant by any means, but it's part of the stereotype. Tennessee Williams, Fitzgerald, Dostoevsky. Another correlation is that they tend to have crappy family lives, and I think the cycle of abuse tends to create these overactive receptor centers.
Take seratonin, which is a neurotransmitter involved in obsessive compulsiveness and I consider an important element of addiction. It is an inhibitory hormone that quiets the brain. I think when children experience abuse the result of their coping behaviors will be the excesses and supply crises I have described.
In terms of whether Halo is addictive, it is designed with graduated difficulty levels so that your gaming experience can be more and more intense, which is a feature of addiction.
The clinical definition of addiction includes -spending a lot of time using, seeking, or looking forward to use. -use interferes with other obligations and relationships. -multiple resolutions to quit or control use. -increasing intensity of using experience sought, levels that formerly were satisfying no longer are.
I think those are the basics, in lay terms. I posted the official Psychiatric version a few months back.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
You ketchupqueen my expanded vocabulary should be known, but I act like a idiot at school. At the same time intelectual means state or being of the human mind.
posted
At a certain level you can be seduced very easily by a object. You must have a cunning intelligence or else the game, in the case I set up, is very easy to become attached to it understand! Posts: 26 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
But that has nothing to do with the actual process of addiction. For people with an addictive personality, like me, actual addiction can occur even though you know what's happening intellectually. It takes a lot of willpower to break an addiction, regardless of intellect or intelligence. (I do not know of a member of my family with an IQ below "gifted" level, and many have genius-level IQs.) I think you are making an unjustified connection.
As for attractiveness, my sister has had problems on and off with smoking. She, as all of us, finds the smell of smoke abhorrent, and she doesn't even like the way it makes her feel. But she is addicted nonetheless, and has stopped smoking and started again several times. (I don't think she currently smokes, but I wonder how long that's going to last.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Lots of addicts are intelligent. I could certainly see that addicts are more intelligent than the general population, especially addicts of certain drugs. On the other hand, some drugs seem to attract users of sub-par intelligence. But I am certain that nearly every addict views themselves as smarter, deeper, and unique, whether they are or not. Certain drug users use the mind creatively, particularly a large subset of psychedelic users. On the other hand, certain drugs are used to create specific emotions and/or are reinforced in ways similar to instinct. Dopamine and endorphin release are instinctual; this is why we usually enjoy accomplishing things and making love.
Making stereotypes, opiate addicts tend to be smart, marijuana addicts are about evenly distributed between slightly above and slightly below average, violent alcoholics are dumb, introspective alcoholics are reasonably smart, cocaine addicts fall all over the IQ spectrum but generally are socially adept, pharmaceutical amphetamine users are a bit above average, and tweakers either start below or sink to it. Psychedelic users are at least average, but almost always believe they are smarter and/or deeper than they are. Of course, while stereotypes exist for a reason, they are still stereotypes.
Moving beyond substances, there are behaviors that correspond to addictive use of specific drugs. Video games are like cannabis. Gambling is like alcohol and cocaine. Sex is like narcotics and MDMA. Workaholism corresponds to amphetamine abuse. My personal belief is that different personalities tend to be more susceptible to certain addictions, rather than there being one general addictive personality. Video game addiction is usually not that damaging, despite the occasional Everquest player who still lives with his parents at 32.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: quote:I'm sick of hearing about video games being worthless trash and not comparing to books and movies or TV. In terms of cultural value video games are as good as books and movies or TV. They are a different medium for doing the same thing and more.
I never said anything of the kind. I think you are arguing with what other people have said in the past, not with what I have said here.
deja vu
Sorry Porter, by that point I'd gotten well off what you'd said and entered into my standard 'video games aren't trash gosh darnit' rant. That part wasn't really directed at you.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I don't worry about what other people think I should be doing with my free time. Clearly I am getting something from the games or I would so something else instead.
I write as a hobby, I read like a fiend,I have lots of pets, I am recently off of a stressful job ... I don't sweat time spent with a video game now and again - not even the occasional marathon sessions. Michelle
Posts: 152 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:But that doesn't change the fact that, IMO, neither sports nor video games are as good at storytelling as the other media I have mentioned.
And here is why:
quote: quote:Ever played Baldurs Gate? Morrowind? The FF series? ALL computer games that are RPGs have intricate, detailed and long plots with many sub plots. They explore all sorts of things. They do it in a different way from books however.
I have never really enjoyed computer RGPs that much, because it takes away my favorite part of role-playing -- developing the character. The only one I've played in recent years is "Neverwinter Nights", which I enjoyed, but not because of the storytelling.
If your looking for story telling in video games, RPGs are the place to go. I've never played Neverwinter Nights, so I can't vouch for it. But some of the others I've played do indeed have pretty amazing story telling. The description isn't there, cuase its visual, the story is found through discussion with other characters, and slowly unearthing it through action and encounters. I've never played the Final Fantasy series but I've heard amazing things about it. Morrowind I have played and it is incredible. Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 could use some work, but they do tell a pretty good fantasy story. Some other, less main stream, fantasy games I've played were also really amazing in terms of story telling ability.
If your looking to develope your own character as in traditional rollplaying, MMORPGs and MUDs are the place to go. You've been playing the wrong games if those are two things you're looking for
And I'll agree with you that many (but not all, I actually really liked many of the stories told by first person shooters) of the stories told by FPS are just an excuse to get you killing monsters. And actually, some of my favorite FPS's have no story telling aspect whatso ever, they're just multiplayer battle and tactics games (Counter Strike:Source).
As for the games with a history aspect, well the fact that you choose to ignore the story telling aspect in them doesn't change the fact that it is there. I haven't played battlefield 1942, I just offered it as another example of a game with a historic theme, Medal of Honor I have played and it does a fair job of depicting WWII and telling a story about it and your character.
Actually, by the time I'd reached about midway through the first paragraph, I wasn't just responding to your post Anti, but rather everyone who bashes video games as being worse than TV/Movies and books. Sorry for not making that clear.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
A junkie junkie? Sounds like a good definition of codependence
Danzig has a good point that the sort of thing one gets addicted to probably has to do with one's... temperment? It's been my experience that video game addicts tend to be the bookish sort. But then, I move in a bookish circle so who the heck knows.
That intelligence does not correlate with character seems pretty obvious to me.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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If opiates were legal, I would love to be a junkie. With constant access to an adequate supply, opiate dependents are highly functional if they want to be - significantly more so than alcoholics or even daily cannabis users.
mothertree, I am probably stereotyping again, but it is usually the computer game enthusiasts that are bookish. TV console players are not particularly literary. I think it has something to do with the barrier to entry - consoles are expected to just work while computer games require at least a little bit of knowledge.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: quote:Ever played Baldurs Gate? Morrowind? The FF series? ALL computer games that are RPGs have intricate, detailed and long plots with many sub plots. They explore all sorts of things. They do it in a different way from books however.
I have never really enjoyed computer RGPs that much, because it takes away my favorite part of role-playing -- developing the character. The only one I've played in recent years is "Neverwinter Nights", which I enjoyed, but not because of the storytelling.
Out of all the RPGs mentioned here, Neverwinter Nights has the worst story(and is also the worst overall game out of them). Apparently it's good online, and it's almost an online tabletop DnD type of deal, but I never got into that.
Morrowind is probably the best example of where story telling in games is going. Sure, there's a main plot, but the player also has the freedom to pretty much create their own story by joining guilds, stealing stuff, exploring, finding treasure, collecting bounties on people, etc.
I also feel KOTOR I and II should be mentioned. The story in these games has a set ending(well, acutally a couple of endings) but the journey there could be WAY different each time someone plays through it.
And yes tetris doesn't have a story. Games like that are the video game equivalent of crossword puzzles and word search things.
Posts: 204 | Registered: Dec 2004
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