posted
I've been thinking on forgiveness lately. What does true forgiveness mean? Can you truly forgive someone who doesn't ask for forgiveness? Is it possible to forgive someone but never speak to them again - or does a workable relationship have to come out of it? Do you have to tell someone that you've forgiven them? For an example - say the last words you have with someone are harsh ones. Is it possible, later, to forgive them yet never go back and "patch" things up? Is that still forgiveness, or is it simply letting go of a grudge?
posted
Depends on what you mean. Like, I feel like I've forgiven my parents for a lot of stuff. I haven't really talked to them about it, though.
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posted
I think forgiveness does not have to mean forgetting what happened in all cases.
For instance, you can forgive someone who molested your daughter, but that does not mean you do not want him punished and kept from doing the same thing to other children.
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posted
Opera, I think forgiveness is an internal process. letting go of the rage and being at peace with someone can be totally independent of that person. Of course forgiveness is better when the other person knows you've forgiven them but it's not a requisite. I hope that before I die I will have the strength of will to forgive all those who have wronged me in my life. I personally feel like that can be accomplished even without contact with those you are forgiving. but you have given me something to think about.
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quote:Is it possible to forgive someone but never speak to them again - or does a workable relationship have to come out of it?
I don't think a workable relationship has to come out of it, because I don't think you necessarily can have a workable relationship with every person. And so if you cannot have a healtghy relationship with someone for whatever reason, does that mean you are incapable for forgiving them? No, it just means you recognize a pairing that is destructive.
On the issue of forgiving without telling people, I think it depends on why you won't tell them. If it's because telling them would only hurt them, then it can be right not to tell them. And there's also the fact that some people have not asked for forgiveness and do not want it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't forgive them, but that they will not appreciate hearing it from you. At the very least, it will come across as insulting, and what's the point of forgiving somebody and then insulting them?
My father was not terribly well equipped to raise a little kid when I was little, and he did not have good outlets for the stress in his life--most notably that caused by my mother. We have a wonderful relationship, though. He is my best friend. He has, on a couple of occasions, owned up to his inadequacy (and, Lord, how I hate to use that word, because it's not quite right) but that's a difficult thing for anyone to face. If I were to, out of the blue, say "You know, Dad, I forgive you for not being a better father" I would just be wounding him deeply, I think. I hold no resentment or ill-will, and I am confident he knows it. What matters is the relationship now.
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posted
I think you can forgive someone who doesn't ask for it. Forgiveness is letting go of the hurt and anger that are caused by the actions of another. Reconcilliation seems to be what requires the other person. You can forgive someone without them ever knowing. But in order to reconcile with someone they too have to be willing and aware.
I spent a lot of time 2 years ago thinking about forgiveness. I think that by forgiving and letting go it let's you almost live again. I also think that it's a complicated process that just can't happen upon a mere decision. But I know that I've always been glad that I've forgiven someone. Usually I learn something about myself and the way we as humans are through the process. A lot of the times when someone does something that hurts you it comes from some deep hurt in themselves.
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posted
I have some thoughts on this, but at the rate I'm having trouble expressing myself today, I think I'll just come back another time...
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posted
This is one of my hot buttons. I think many people do not understand forgiveness at all.
For example, you said
quote:Is it possible, later, to forgive them yet never go back and "patch" things up.
I don't think forgiveness has anything to do with "patching things up". What you're describing has more to do with restoring trust, which is a completely different thing.
I believe that forgiveness means that you can let go of the anger and the bitterness and hurt that you feel towards someone who has wronged you. It means you are willing to accept whatever the courts and/or God decide is a fitting punishment for whatever "crime" has been committed against you. But it does NOT mean that everything is "all better".
One of the reasons this is such a trigger topic for me is the way that some people (usually men, but not always) use the fact that christians are commanded to forgive as a club against other people (usually women). I can forgive someone without ever allowing someone back into my life - indeed, without ever having any further contact with him or her. Forgiveness has nothing to do with the person who did the wrong, and everything to do with the victim of the wrong.
About 10 years ago, a young girl from the town I lived in was abducted on a weekday afternoon in the summer. The town was predominantly LDS, as was the girl who was abducted. She was missing for about a week, and then her mutilated body was found in a river about 50 miles away. The perpetrator was identified quickly, and pled guilty, so there was never a trial.
After all of the dust settled, the girl's parents held a press conference to thank the police and all of the volunteers who turned out to help in the recovery effort. They stated in the press conference that they had forgiven the man who had murdered their daughter.
This did not go over well in the town. Folks just didn't understand what they were trying to say. They weren't saying he should be set free. They weren't suggesting that they were going to bring the man into their home to be a nanny to their 4 or 5 other children. I believe they meant that they recognized that life goes on. That even though they had lost their daughter, they still had too much to live for to spend the rest of their lives hating anyone, even the man who had taken their daughter from them.
Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. It has NOTHING to do with the person who has hurt us. We are commanded to forgive so that we will be at peace, not to make the person who wronged us feel better.
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quote:One of the reasons this is such a trigger topic for me is the way that some people (usually men, but not always) use the fact that christians are commanded to forgive as a club against other people (usually women).
I wonder if this is a characteristic of some circle that you travel in that I don't, because I certainly have not seen any evidence whatsoever for the gender stereotypes you relate.
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posted
I'm specifically referring to abusive husbands and boyfriends (although women do it too) who use the doctrine of forgiveness to force themselves back into abusive relationships.
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Harboring anger and resentment is damaging to a person. Forgiveness is the process through which you can rid yourself of this negativity and be at peace. Now, forgiveness certainly can make the forgivee feel better and grant them peace, but the ultimate benefit of forgiveness is, I believe, for the forgiver. So, I guess whether the person you are forgiving knows of your forgiveness or not is irrelevant.
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posted
It seems to me that forgiveness may not even have to do with letting go of anger, and more to do with recognizing that there are reasons people do things, and that those reasons are not in their control.
We are all human, we are all fallible, we all make mistakes.
quote: Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves.
It seems to me that forgiveness of others is actually less important than forgiving ourselves. I think that's why Christianity is such a successful religion, because people crave forgiveness. And everybody has done something they are ashamed of, or wish to be forgiven for.
As far as forgiving others goes, I like to use this thought experiment:
Imagine that a person's (person 1) thoughts could be recorded for an entire lifetime. Then those thoughts could be played back into someone else's mind (person 2). Person 2 would actually experience the person 1's life as though it was their own. They would, for all intents and purposes, BE that person.
Now let us imagine that person 1 committed a crime against person 2. So when person 2 experiences person 1's recorded thoughts, person 2 would actually live through the experience of committing that crime against themself.
This would be more than simply viewing the crime from the criminal's perspective, it would mean having experienced all the underlying events that led to the criminal committing the crime.
My contention is that if person 1 is capable of forgiving himself, then person 2 would be also, if he could experience everything person 1 had experienced. But if person 1 is not able to forgive himself, person 2 probably wouldn't be able to either.
To me, this thought experiment allows me to forgive others, in that even though it's not possible to experience another person's life, I can accept that their motivations were genuinely based on their experiences, and that what they did was the result of human experience, which we all know can be pretty tough.
And I think in some way that all forgiveness operates like this to some extent, because what allows us to forgive each other is the fact that as humans we have shared experiences.
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posted
About the gender stereotypes, I think that apart from romantic couplings women are more likely to extract forgiveness (think of moms and grandmas) because relating to people seems to be more important to women.
(oh, and Glenn that is a great insight. I almost forgot to acknowledge that.)
posted
I think what maui babe said is right on target. IMO, forgiveness is an internal releasing of someone else's responsibility to us for wrongdoing. It is not to be confused with reconciliation, which might repair a damaged relationship. It is not to be confused with grace, which releases someone of the consequences of their wrongful action.
Forgiveness allows us to move on to reconciliation. It may allow us to move on toward grace.
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posted
Glen, that was rather confusing, to be honest.
Forgiveness and forgetting are two different things. I have problems with doing either, to be honest...with others, and with myself.
I think I have the forgiving thing down better than the forgetting, though, and for good reason. I WANT to remember some of the bad things that have happened in my life, not to dwell on them, but because I feel I have things to learn from them.
Both from things that happened to me, and things that I have done to others in the past.
posted
Maui babe expressed a lot of it the same way I would have. But I do have a few more comments, anyway.
Forgiveness, to me, is a process much like repentance. In repentance, we typically have to recognize we did something wrong, stop doing it, make up for what we did, and ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness is similar. We need to recognize that we were wronged, understand how we were affected by it, stop allowing it to happen if it is continuing, and let go.
Forgiveness does not happen in a moment. It can be a short process for smaller mistakes, and it can be a long process for bigger mistakes. It can take decades.
Forgetting is not necessary, either. Forgetting what someone did could lead me to providing that person with another opportunity to do something wrong. We need to do what we can to prevent others from sinning against us, as far as we have the power to prevent it. I don't mean that in an angry, militant way, but in terms of not providing opportunities.
Let me see if I can explain this another way. I used to be an accountant in my previous life. One of the things we were taught in a securities course was that 5% of people will always be honest, 5% will always be dishonest, and 90% will be honest or dishonest depending on circumstances and opportunity. The 5% who are always honest will be that way even when faced with the opportunity to steal a huge wad of cash that no one could ever trace to them, for example. The 5% who are always dishonest will be that way even when they know they'll get caught - they don't seem able to help it. The other 90% will remain honest if not given an opportunity to steal, or will steal if a convenient opportunity is thrown at them.
I think this is a fairly useful analogy to apply to sins, or mistakes, or wrongs, or whatever you want to call them. And if you understand it in that context, you can see that we need to do our part in not providing opportunities as much as we can help it.
I finally reached the point a couple of years ago where I was able to forgive my parents for the things they did to me, which, to me, means that I let go of the hate, anger, and bitterness, and accepted that it happened with no further ill will. I didn't tell them, nor am I allowing them back into my life - they would use my forgiveness, if given the opportunity, as a way to wedge themselves into my life and further damage me. They haven't changed, they likely never will. They're still just as evil as they ever were. I have to protect myself - that's my job. So no, I absolutely will not tell them. It's none of their business, quite frankly. It's between me and God.
I do not have to allow myself to become a doormat. No one does. That's not the purpose behind forgiveness. Forgiveness is to help us gain peace and to move forward in a positive way.
If you're Christian, you can also look at this way. Christ died on the cross to save us from our sins, and we can repent through Him. He provides us with the opportunity to heal from the sins we've caused, but also to heal from the sins others have committed on us. He provides the ultimate in healing power.
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I wonder if I should go tell people that I have forgiven that I have forgiven them.. or will that just remind me of what they did and ultimately make me mad.. *explodes*
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posted
I was raised as a Christian Scientist, so forgiveness had an odd tinge to it in my younger philosophy. Men as children of a perfect God could do no evil -- a crime or offense was merely in my flawed eyes. If only I could see them as they really are, forgiveness would flow naturally from knowing that the evil was not really part of them.
The shorthand way of saying this is 'hate the sin, love the sinner.'
But I've changed some, no longer a practicing Christian Scientist -- somewhere between agnostic and atheist. Of course my outlook is still influenced by early teachings: I believe people have some kind of inherently good nature.
I want to talk about forgiveness of a loved one. I was in a relationship, and the person I loved acted in a way that hurt me, over a long period of time. Nevertheless, it was always clear that this was never malicious, and I eventually accepted the fact that what appeared at times to be betrayal, was merely the effect of confusion and certain emotional barriers. The worst that could be said of her was that she was not straightforward.
Naturally, even this felt pretty bad to me, as straighforwardness is kind of a prerequisite for a long-term meaningful relationship (IMO).
One day, she did an abrupt about-face. It was as if she awoke to a new day. The factors that had been inhibiting and confusing her sloughed off. We renewed our dedication to each other. Part of this included her sudden understanding of just how deeply I had been hurt during the prior period.
'Can you forgive me,' she asked. Or: 'I can't ask you to forgive me.'
But I did. And I told her so. This was extremely important to the continuing relationship. If it was not to continue it would have been much less important. But straightforwardness had been one of the issues -- certainly we had to be straightforward now, admit that there had been hurt, not sweetly sweep it under.
What did I mean by forgiveness?
'I know you never meant to hurt me.' 'I understand that there were internal and external circumstances beyond your control at the time, most of which had nothing to do with me.' 'I have hurt you too, and in part my forgiveness springs from my own utter humility and intention not to hurt you again.' 'I am talking myself into it. I do not today feel free of the hurt -- recollections can still sting. But by saying the words, I bolster my conviction that these ghosts will not come between us in the future. They are part of the past, and a past from which we have both learned, and become stronger.' 'I love you. And I need you to know that I will always love you, no matter what.'
[ February 19, 2005, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: John Van Pelt ]
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posted
The movie The Fisher King deals with the themes of "making amends" and "forgiveness" in a very poignant, unforgettable way.
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quote: Glen, that was rather confusing, to be honest.
Yeah, I know. Too much "party of the first part, party of the second part." But basically it has to do with empathy.
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One of the things we were taught in a securities course was that 5% of people will always be honest, 5% will always be dishonest, and 90% will be honest or dishonest depending on circumstances and opportunity. The 5% who are always honest will be that way even when faced with the opportunity to steal a huge wad of cash that no one could ever trace to them, for example. The 5% who are always dishonest will be that way even when they know they'll get caught - they don't seem able to help it. The other 90% will remain honest if not given an opportunity to steal, or will steal if a convenient opportunity is thrown at them.
