posted
(warning - teenagers of the forum DO NOT take this personally)
Perhaps this is a sign I'm getting old. We have such lovely young people on this forum, so please don't turn this thread into a knock down drag out.
Teenagers and sex completely squick me out. Every time I see one of our younger posters posting in a sex thread, or even in a thong thread, I have to resist the urge to cover my eyes and run away screaming. Why is this? I've been thinking about it, and could it be that since teenagers aren't in my peer group, it just seems way weird to see any of them commenting on things of a sexual nature?
I became sexually active as a teen, and I'm well aware that teens are pretty knowledgeable about sex and things related, even if they aren't sexually active. Heck, I used to teach a sex-ed class for teens. But it still bothers me, and the fact that it bothers me bothers me.
posted
Me too. I think it is because we have children, and the idea of them having sex is a lot like what teenagers feel about their old parents having sex. It is a "talk to the hand" kind of thing.
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For my part, it's because from my vantage point they're children. I see teenagers driving cars and I think "are they old enough to do that? did that kid steal that car?" Thinking about some of these baby-faced kids having sex borders on pedophilia, and that triggers the ick response.
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Thinking about those pimply faced wimps getting those georgious highschool delectibles is what troubles me. All those cheerleaders and I will never get the chance until after the freshman 15!
Why do so many girls peak before 18! I was running this fall and passed a group of training Cheerleaders, full figures, 5'5 or taller, C and D cups with perfect legs, long hair and woman features! They were in Junior High! What is in the water in Illinois?
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Hee hee. Chris, I can almost hear one of your articles on this subject. You don't even need to write it.
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BC, I don't wanna know what's in the water here.... I just want to keep MY daughters away from it! I wouldn't mind if they managed to grow to 5'5" (after all, their mom's only 5'3") but the rest.... eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww LOL
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*shudders* BC, you can be a really creepy person sometimes. Besides, all the best-looking women are in college. At least 'round these parts. Even if persuing a high school girl appealed to me, the vast majority look like knockoffs of whatever "pop culture" says they should look like.
Women in college, however, come in all varieties. Maybe it's the larger population sample, or I've just stopped seeing women in tight jeans and abdomen-exposing clothing. :shrug:
Define the group of younger posters... I want to make sure I'm not in it. I turned 20 a few months ago, and I'm happy to have beaten my teenage years. The last boss was hard, as gamers would say. Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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*wonders if Elizabeth's oops email was to BC*
I think it's because we have children ourselves. My son is going to be 12 in March. He's only a few inches shorter than I am. I know that I have only moments left of his childhood, before he starts thinking of girls "that way". And girls *already* think of him that way. Yikes.
I guess the squickiness for me is mostly because I do think they're still children, and in the past 6 months, I've seen two of those children become mothers. One 15, one 17 -- and the 17 year old had a special needs baby that even now lays in NICU waiting for his next surgery. It looks like he'll be healthy in the long run, though, which is a blessing.
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:: Waits for BC to say "I'm gonna show you good an' all I got man parts"::
You know, teenagers talking about sex, or having sex really doesn't squick me out at I. I don't get the prurient thrill from it that Bean Counter apparently does, but to me thinking about, talking about, and acting on ones sexuality are all a part of being a teenager. Figuring ones self out sexually is a pretty natural part of growing up.
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I wasn't even interested in sex until I was 20... Perhaps I think it's a bit strange. For example, elementary school kids talking about having crushes on each other... and they are about 7. There is something in the milk.
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I feel and think much the same as Noemon. I am more worried about the forbidden fruit aspect of exploring sexuality at a more anonymous (and less healthy) place than a community like this, where it can be treated as nothing more than it is -- an occasional topic of conversation, accurate in detail, but not obsessed about or over-grandized. Here, I do trust people to speak up if things are getting out of hand.
And Space Opera, thanks for speaking up about your own distress. I do understand the concern. My sense is that Hatrack goes through these cycles, and every year at the winter holidays / incoming Spring, the discussion becomes much more frank and sexualized on some threads.
Rather than having the pendulum swing too widely, maybe this is a good chance for us all to re-examine our own conversations and make adjustments as we see fit. (I will, certainly.) To address this potential problem as calmly and considerately as Space Opera has done seems to be a markedly good thing.
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Sara, from your vantage point, do you think girls are really developing much faster than they used to?
If so, are there any theories as to why? I've heard people say it's because of hormones in the beef and chicken supply, but I don't know if any of that is backed up by study.
I guess what I'm asking is has the average age for onset of menses gotten lower? I sure do see a lot of girls in the lower primary grades that seem to be developing.
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You know, Elizabeth, for a thread about teenage sex, I thought "talk to the hand" was a fairly interesting expression to have brought to mind.
Anyway, from a teenagers perspective, I'm not squicked out from teens talking about sex or adults talking about sex. I am, however, rather squicked when an adult talks about sex between youths and youths talk about sex between adults. And mutual friends or parents are not allowed to talk about sex with eachother, ever.
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It is not just girls maturing faster. My oldest just turned 13 and is 5'11" and 165lbs. There is a girl in his confirmation class that he has known since they were in the nursery together. She is almost as tall and not heavy or skinny. They could pass for 17 easily. And they are both 13.
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I can barely stand to talk to any immature female, the emptiness, oh the emptyness... Why does beauty fade even as women start to become interesting as people? Hey I also find most young men to be about as interesting as farm animals as well.
Still when I was in high school in Iowa seniors still had braces and were just starting to fill out, it must be all the Scandinavian and German blood around here. At 5' 11 I was tall for my school but around here the 18 yr old boys tower over me!
Of course I have heard my mother make the same comments, to the effect that when she was in school girls did not look like that, and there is also some evidence mounting in the scientific community. (earlier menarche faster growth etc)
Think ill of me if you will, I know my own virtue and purity! BC
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I think that the age of menarche has steadily decreased. I don't think anybody knows exactly why. Part may be because of increased nutrition (and, for some kids, overnutrition) -- as estrogen is a fat-soluble hormone, going into the general age of menarche with more stores might influence timing.
I've heard about everything from the antibiotics in meat and chicken (notable, used at low levels for weight gain in these animals), to the steroids as you mention, to estrogen-like chemicals exuded by the plastics which are so ever-present. Would I rule any of these out on the surface? Nope. I don't think we really have a handle on this, and certainly there is more than one potentially plausible mechanism.
I'll try to see what I can dig up. Interestingly, I don't recall that boys have had as much of a rapid decrease in age of onset of puberty. I'll check.
Interesting and important stuff.
(BTW, I've eliminated most plastic items from our house, especially the kitchen. Don't have solid science for it, but I don't like 'em. On the other hand, I don't have children, and so this is easy for me to do.)
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posted
[BTW, the nice part about this thread is that it doesn't have to be polarizing. Someone can look at a group which they are a part of, step back, say, "You know, I've been thinking ..." and start a great discussion. That is so cool.]
Belle: Yeah, sure. Email in the profile. I'm at work and taking a break.
[ December 27, 2004, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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I teach fifth grade. We have intercepted notes(not busy-body style, but some boys showed them to me because they were squicked out) from girls to boys that said "I want you so bad." Etc. Very explicit sexual desires. The boys are very uncomfortable with this, for the most part.
It is disturbing to me. Where do they get this? I also worry abot the whole oral sex issue, which is happening more and more at younger ages, because kids do not think of it as sex. Help! i really want to know how to dea with this, for both my students and my children.
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The one thing I feel we lose, based on the assumption that attention is the coin of our personal economy, is that when sex becomes the center of an adolescents attention it imposes a limit on future growth in all other areas. Yet more and more I see and hear junior high and high school kids glibly discussing sexual activities that astonish me.
When I was in school second base was cool, last week I heard about a high school party where the girls all stripped and danced for the guys and took tips like a miniature strip club! Where do these kids get the confidence to act this way?
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Elizabeth, that is very worrying. I'm trying to think back to my grade five class (which wasn't so long ago) and although I was one of the less stylish children, I'm fairly sure that "I like you hee hee" was as explicit as anyone got.
It's certainly not right!
EDIT: It's also very 1984 or Brave New World (I've forgotten which).
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Belle - I think part of it is the decrease in activity levels in young girls. When I was a child I participated in a study at the university on the effect of physical activity on puberty. More active girls tended to reach puberty later than less active girls.
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Yeah, Elizabeth. In some groups, oral sex is not seen as real sex. And there's a trend of some young women becoming much more aggressive than was usual in the past.
One of the strongest tools that has been shown to help with decreasing risky behaviour is normative feedback. That is, providing accurate information about what their peers are doing -- information which is usually much less than what they expect or believe. Adolescents talk much more than they do (although it's true that more are doing, too). I use info from the National Longitudinal Study on Adolescent Health (aka "Add Health"), a national survey mandated by the US Congress in the mid to late 90s. 90,000+ students in grades 7-12 were surveyed, with detailed follow-up on 12,000+.
There is a technique from substance abuse research that may be particularly helpful: the FRAMES model:
F — Feedback of personal risk and normative data for peers R — Responsibility of the [adolescent] encouraged A — Advice that is clear and practical (basic "how-to" skills) M — Menu of alternate change options E — Empathy as a counselling style, avoiding confrontation S — Self-efficacy stressed and positive reinforcement to sustain it
[ December 27, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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quote:We have intercepted notes(not busy-body style, but some boys showed them to me because they were squicked out) from girls to boys that said "I want you so bad." Etc. Very explicit sexual desires.
Embarrassing confession time.... I go back to my diaries from when I was 13 and 14 and I wrote exactly that about some boys I liked. They make me blush even to read them now, because they're so incredibly silly. I hadn't even been kissed yet when I wrote these entries and had absolutely *no* idea what I was writing really meant. Which doesn't mean that these girls don't, but it's possible.
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posted
I can tell you that my wife started menses and developed C cup breasts at age 10. At the time, she was not at all happy about it...
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quote:Why does beauty fade even as women start to become interesting as people?
BC, that says more about you and your expectations of beauty (and women) than it does about them.
However I did like what you had to say about sexual fixation in teens, it struck a nerve with me. When adolescents become fixated on sexual exploration it does limit their development in other areas. I remember when the first woman I slept with left me, and it was devastating to me even though I was a bit older than the group we are talking about here.
The young teen years are a very fragile time in some ways, emotionally in particular. Relationships can be enough trouble without the risks of pregnancy and STD's. It is way too easy to become attached to someone in those years, and sex only amplifies the problem.
Also, any type of intimacy tends to lead to attachment, attachment that young teens aren't prepared for at their age. It isn't a good thing to become attached for a lifetime by a child to someone who doesn't even know who they are yet. It is even harder to be a good partner when neither person have any true idea of who they are yet.
That is what the teens years and the early 20's are for, for learning who you are and what you want to do the rest of your life. Too much intimacy too soon prevents a lot of teens from developing in other areas of their lives, handicapping them in ways that aren't always recognizable.
posted
Such intriguing comments. Oh, and just for the record, sex threads don't bother me in the least! I've just noticed that as I get older the teens seem younger and younger, particularly when you add sex to the mix.
I guess I've gotten old enough now that I can look back and 16 seems incredibly young to me. Chris was right - they *are* children, and I think that's why I get uncomfortable thinking of them as sexual beings. Now, any good psychology book will tell you everyone is a sexual being, but I think you know what I'm saying.
There are so many wonderful, great things that come from a good sexual relationship. But there can be terrible things as well, and I suppose as I age I doubt a teenager's ability to deal with those things more and more.
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MPH, Last year my daughter was in fourth grade, and nine. We were at my son's soccr game, and she was walking next to this tall woman. I thought, hmm, who is that woman A is talking to? It was her friend, also nine! She shot up last year, and looks like she is twenty. Scary.
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I have said this before, but I will say it again because it cracks me up:
Me: A, stop being so rude. A: I am not being rude, you just don't understand teenagers. Me: A, you are nine. A: Well, I am a preteen, and you don't understand them either.
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I turned 20 a few months ago, and I'm happy to have beaten my teenage years. The last boss was hard, as gamers would say. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Don't have solid science for it, but I don't like 'em. On the other hand, I don't have children, and so this is easy for me to do.)
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