posted
I'm going to try to get through this without giving offense to anyone, but I'm not sure how well that's going to work. Here goes.
I work for a small family amusement park as a ride operator. Every summer, for two nights, the park is rented out from 8pm until midnight by several orthodox Jewish summer camps. (At least, I assume that they are summer camps.) Generally these nights have been know by the staff as the "Jew Nights", and not without a little affection.
To be honest, most of us really don't enjoy these nights, mainly because we are forced to wear long sleeves and long pants on very warm and muggy nights, but also because we have to work so late at night. But anyway, this is not what my post is about.
I have a question about what some of my friends at work have dubbed the "un-holy haircuts", what my mother calls "earlocks", and what my boss called "really long sideburns."
For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, I'll try to explain. It seemed that almost all of the adults and a good portion of the kids had their hair cut this way. Most of the hair on their head would be cut short, except for the hair just above and in front of their ears. This hair was allowed to grow quite long, and most of them seem to be curled (whether natural or styled I don't know).
My question is, why do they wear their hair this way? I understand that it is a religious action, but I am still quite curious as for the reason of it.
And, to be brutally honest, I think one of the reasons I'm curious is because I find that hair style to look horrible. Part of it, I'm sure, is the fact that the "norm of society", meaning what we see on TV or what I've grown up seeing at public schools in Connecticut, is so ingrained in me that anything different will seem strange. The other part is that I couldn't see myself ever changing or deciding what I looked like for religious purposes.
But anyway, back to my question. I'm sure it's a very simple answer, but I'm curious all the same. Thanks.
posted
I believe it’s from Leviticus 19:27 – “You shall not round off the side-growth on your head, or destroy the side-growth of your beard.” (JPS translation)
rivka, of course, can correct/clarify.
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posted
I may be mistaken, but I think the Torah forbids them to cut the hair in front of their ears. (I'm not sure it is put quite like that. Let me look it up.)
posted
That would be the part that rivka would have to clarify. It’s in a list of “you shall nots” that includes things that were ritual practices in some of the surrounding countries, so it may have been something that worshipers of “foreign gods” did as part of their worship. But that’s speculation on my part, I haven’t researched it.
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posted
*laughs and wonders if the camp her brother is working at is one of the ones in question*
dkw and PSI are correct. As for why, and details of the various customs (like how long different people keep them) I think I can find some stuff later. But I have to go take MY kids to camp now, so I'll be back later.
If you want to look yourself meanwhile, use the word peyos (or peyot) which is what they are called in Hebrew/Yiddish.
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posted
Nope, I work at Lake Compounce, called just "The Lake", in Connecticut.
Feel free to ask your brother rivka, it is possible. It seemed like most of the camps were from New York or Long Island, and I'm not exaggerating when I say that there were as many Yankee caps as yamulkas(sp?) on those nights.
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posted
I worked at a family amusement park as a teen.
That is where I met my wife.
My older brother worked there first.
That is where he met his wife.
My younger brother also worked there.
That is where he met his wife.
I don't know if this is a warning or an endoresment.
The pay sucked, but the fringe benefits were outstanding.
We had late nights too--but ours involved Prom or Grad nights, nothing religious.
Although, we once had the Ms. Universe contestants in the park for the day. A group played my "Wack-A-Mole". That was quite a religious experience for me.
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posted
Hey, Dan! My dad is working in Peru but travels to Ecuador on business. During this last Mrs. Universe competition he made a big excuse to stay in Ecuador for a month. He got a room in the hotel they were staying at in Quito, sat in the bar and watched the scenery. He said it was the highlight of his life. Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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This Sunday, Spongebob Squarepants is going to be at my park. I know it's not Ms. Universe, but still...eh, I got nothing!
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quote: The other part is that I couldn't see myself ever changing or deciding what I looked like for religious purposes.
Changing what you look like seems like a pretty minor thing to me. Out of all the things I do for my relion, that's about the easiest. What *would* you be willing to do for religious purposes?
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quote: And, to be brutally honest, I think one of the reasons I'm curious is because I find that hair style to look horrible. Part of it, I'm sure, is the fact that the "norm of society", meaning what we see on TV or what I've grown up seeing at public schools in Connecticut, is so ingrained in me that anything different will seem strange. The other part is that I couldn't see myself ever changing or deciding what I looked like for religious purposes.
And I have to say, it doesn't make me particularly feel like going to the trouble of looking for reasons and explanations that will, it seems to me, be dismissed or viewed with as much disdain and distaste as the peyos themselves seem to be.
My son, my father, my brothers, my cousins, my nephews, my friends . . . that's who you're talking about.
And ME. I don't wear peyos, not being male, but I dress a certain way "for religious purposes." (Although that's not how I would phrase it.)
I'm out of this thread, before I say something that will invoke Godwin's Law.
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posted
Wow, I set out not to be offensive, and I guess I failed.
I apologize for what I said. I don't put down or insult or think disdainfully about people based on how they look, how they choose to dress, or how they put their hair no matter what the reason. I merely meant to put foreward my opinion that I didn't like the look and would never have it myself.
I realize now that it sounds harsh to say that, and so I apologize.
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quote: I don't put down or insult or think disdainfully about people based on how they look, how they choose to dress, or how they put their hair no matter what the reason
quote:I understand that it is a religious action, but I am still quite curious as for the reason of it
quote: And, to be brutally honest, I think one of the reasons I'm curious is because I find that hair style to look horrible
quote:The other part is that I couldn't see myself ever changing or deciding what I looked like for religious purposes
Javert, you always seem so well-meaning, but don't try to cover up this one. You clearly meant to criticize the practice, not only for its unattractiveness (in your eyes,) but also because you feel dressing/looking a certain way for your religion is ridiculous.
rivka has every right to be offended.
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posted
You did fine, Javert. Sometimes there's no way you can phrase things to say exactly what you mean without someone comparing you to Hitler. Posts: 270 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I don't think Javert would've dismissed her answer, like she assumed he would, and I don't find him to be deliberately offensive about religion, ever.
He thinks it looks horrible. Fine. He admits that it's partly because it's so different from what he's used to.
He also says that he doesn't ever see himself changing his image for a religious reason, which is okay, too. What he obviously doesn't realize is that Orthodox Jews take the Bible very literally and do many things which seem to have no practical purpose in this day and age.
Why is that offensive? I can see how a member of that religion would become very sensitive to the subject, having to put up with that sort of thing on a daily basis, but to fault Javert for accidentally offending isn't fair.
If he had come in and said something like, "What's with Jews and that stupid haircut? I mean, why would God ever tell people to do something stupid like that?", I could understand the wish to invoke Godwin's Law, though it still probably wouldn't have been accurate.
Instead, he came in with a question and criticism. We question religion all the time around here. Javert's post was milder than most, even with the poor word choice of "horrible".
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posted
Yeah, but there weren't implied comparisons to HITLER. I think there were hurt feelings...on both sides. And I do believe that Javert was trying to be inoffensive. But rivka has dealt with people being asses about her outward expressions of her religion and is...touchy.
I was sad to see rivka offended.
I've also always been curious about the haircuts. Now I know. If Javert hadn't asked the question, I probably would've continued in ignorance. So I'm sad to see that Javert had the reaction of "Crap! I DIDN'T mean to offend anyone. I WASN'T trying to do that!"
Hell, people can come off as jerks when they're really really intending not to be. I probably am right now.
I can understand frustration, but comparing even a strong disdain of religion (which I'm not saying Javert has) to Nazis and/or Hitler is just wrong. Equating Atheism/Agnosticism to Anti-Semitism is mean, and much less likely than in members of other faiths to be accurate.
I feel just as badly for Javert being made out to be a Jew-hater as I do for rivka herself.
[ July 24, 2004, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Mean Old Frisco ]
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I can see why she got so offended, but the reaction does seem extreme when you think about Javert's intentions in trying NOT to offend, and through clumsy use of words, did offend. And through already being sensitized, rivka got more bristled than anyone could've expected. Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I think that Frisco was much better at putting down what I meant to say than I was.
Somehow I doubt rivka will come back into this thread, but I want to say again that I'm sorry for the way in which I expressed my opinion and my question.
And thanks to the rest of you for realizing that I was an ass by mistake, when I really didn't intend to be. Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
First, in regard to Lake Compounce - is there a night when Orthodox girls girls rent it out? Because I'm pretty sure I recognize the name as one my sister has been to.
Also, I just wanted to mention that yes, the reason why you (Javert) think that the haircut looks funny is cultural. I personally consider it completely normal, and in fact I think that my little brothers look absolutely adorable with their "peyos". In fact, many of the "normal" boys haircuts look strange to me, and any man with long hair looks weird. (No offense to all the men on hatrack with long hair. )
People's tastes are often dependent on what they're used to.
(Just FYI, there are many different kinds of peyos worn among Orthodox Jews. Some leave only a small amount of hair growing, some grow it short enough that they can tuck it behind their ears, some grow it much longer, some - Chassidim, mostly - grow them very long and curl them.)
Also, the reason that I found here is that it used to be a pagan custom to shave off the sideburns, as dkw guessed.
And I'm a bit surprised that you feel that you really couldn't imagine changing your appearance for religion. I can understand people who say they couldn't imagine changing their whole lifestyle for their religion, but appearance? (Especially since religious Jews attend the same schools, often live in the same neighborhoods, etc., so among their friends, boys/men look ordinary.)
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posted
I remember them best from A Stranger Among Us which was about Hasidic Jews. I never realized that other Jews did it also. What is the difference between a Hasidic Jew and an Orthodox Jew? I don't think I've ever met a Jewish person who had the sideburns. And I know a lot of Jewish people.
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posted
I can't speak for rivka personally, but you stepped on a hidden landmine.
S'why I tend to blow up at people who push the wrong button, entirely by accident.
I realize you weren't trying to be offensive or critical and your commentary was driven purely by your sense of aesthetics, but for her it was a commentary on a fundamental and integral part of her faith.
It would be like me showing up at a Catholic Mass and carrying on a fashion critique of the priest and those tacky robes.
posted
Speaking off...the best part of working in the lay minstry was letting the priest know which vestment looked "absolutely hideous" and not letting him wear it. Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I think I have shown many times that I am more than willing to answer curious questions. But what Javert called "brutal honesty," I call unnecessary and inexcusable rudeness. Saw a hairstyle that struck you as odd and were curious about it? Ask away!
But why toss in the nasty critiques? And they weren't just about the hair, either.
Did I overreact? Perhaps. (Although you should have seen what I didn't post, Frisco dear.)
But my point about Nazis (not Hitler specifically) was because of the fact that they took particular offense at, and particular delight in removing, Jewish side-locks.
Now ignore all that for a moment, and imagine I had posted something that read as follows:
(Disclaimer: The following is NOT remotely close to how I actually feel.)
quote:I keep seeing these African Americans tricked out in kente cloth. What is up with that? It looks so incredibly garish! So primitive! I can't imagine ever dressing that way just because of some tribal custom or heritage, could you?
I would have been roasted, and rightfully so.
Javert, I accept your apology. I am sure that you did not set out to offend. But might I request more tact next time? Thanks. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:But my point about Nazis (not Hitler specifically) was because of the fact that they took particular offense at, and particular delight in removing, Jewish side-locks.
Which has absolutely zip to do with this discussion, even if his was a religious point disguised as a style question.
You can't assume that everyone who finds fault in Jewish custom is a backwoods bigot out to exterminate your entire race.
How can you answer:
"I think they look horrible."
with:
"Hitler did, too."
Sure, he could've used more tact...but he didn't use any less than anyone else does in any religious discussions here. I just thought the Nazi comparison was a lot too much.
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posted
For reader...yes, some girls' groups do come in, but they come during the regular hours of the park. I believe, however, that the water park is partitioned off for them for about an hour or two with only female life guards.
But, I've only worked here last summer and this summer, so it could have been done differently in years past.
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posted
I meant to come back and clarify one thing, when I was sure I could do so calmly. I forgot . . . but was just reminded by another thread.
At NO POINT was I comparing Javert to the Nazis or Hitler. I had a visceral and not entirely rational reaction based largely on my association of peyos-bashing with Nazi atrocities. My later post was an attempt to explain the mental/emotional association that I have -- again, while I can see that I was not clear, I was not saying that Javert was Nazi-like or a Jew-hater, or any such thing.
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