posted
The Holy Spirit thread started out about missionaries. Then maturity. Then responsibility. Then finances. Then love and money. It has a chance of drifting back to religion, so I thought I'd bring one tangent here.
How do you feel about pre-nups? Lately I've been wishing I'd had one. As I outlined there, I'm not considering divorce or anything, just wondering if it would have helped us both be more responsible.
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I think it undermines trust in a relationship. Now, it mat be OK for some people (those who, unlike me, have something to lose), but I don't like them.
If you don't trust someone, why are you marrting them?
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pooka, are you thinking of the pre-nup as having more than how things will be divided in case of divorce? Like a contract about how financial decisions will be made in the marriage?
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Mixed feelings. I don't see pre-nups as being very needed for young people just starting out, but I can see it for second or third marriages -- where there might be several other factors involved. In those cases, sometimes it preserves the "inheritance" for children that otherwise might be argued over with a new spouse -- and gets everything laid out so that everyone knows where they stand...
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They can only hurt. If you want a prenup why not sign one that says that no matter what you will always work to the goal of keeping the marriage alive and fresh, and that it is going to be your number 1 priority? Oh wait, isn't that a marriage vow...
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I agree with Farm-girl. I think they are a vote of no-confidence for the marriage, but when it is a matter of combining families and there are assets involved, it's good to have that kind of thing worked out so there aren't unpleasant surprises and possible resentment later.
"What do you mean, I only get half your assets if you die?" "You mean whether or not your children recieve any inheritance depends on whether your second husband decides to give any to them?"Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think one of the implicit promises in marriage is that you are willing to share everything with your spouse, even if things don't work out. You go into the marriage knowing that, and it's kind of sweet. So if you use a prenuptial agreement to remove that implicit promise, you are in essence withholding a part of yourself and going into the deal with less than a full heart. My personal feeling is that it's a bad idea (although I am willing to draft up such a document for people who want that kind of thing).
I think there is at least one situation where a prenuptial agreement is a good idea. That's when one party to the marriage has a significant stake in a business that involves other stakeholders as well, e.g. a partnership or a family business of some kind. In that case, the only message the prenuptial need convey is that, "Although I am willing to share everything I own with you, part of my assets are tied up with those of other people. I have a responsibility to them, and I need to do this for their protection."
I have done a prenuptial agreement that worked this way. It was a large and successful family business, and the younger son was getting married to someone that the father and older siblings weren't crazy about. They were afraid of what the future wife could do to the company if the marriage ever split up. They (very rightly) insisted that the younger brother get a prenup, and he did.
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I'm thinking of a society where getting into a lot of consumer debt is increasingly likely. Sure assets are shared, but is there any chance it might give someone pause in incurring more debt? I think credit granting institutions shouldn't be so predatory.
Another ironic thing (and fortunately this does not apply to me) but apparently couples go thousands of dollars into debt just to have the wedding.
P.S. As much as no pre-nup says "I trust you", a pre-nup can say "I value you and not your money". It's a very romantic idea that folks will be trusting and rational about money, but as we were talking on the other thread, it is not always so transparent. Money has psychological implications. I guess that is the very reason so many are repelled by the idea of pre-nups.
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Pooka, I’m still not clear why you think a pre-nup would make people think twice about going into debt.
I’m very much in favor of couples sitting down prior to marriage and working out a household budget, debt reduction and/or savings plan, etc. As well as discussing how financial decisions will be made and how expensive/which types of decisions can be made by one partner and which will be joint decisions.
All of those are precautions that effect the financial condition of the marriage. A pre-nup only comes into play when there’s a divorce.
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I think going through pre-nup negotiations might be a way to clarify such issues for a young couple. If it weren't approached as only something gold diggers do. I think anyone who is old enough to be getting married should be old enough to countenance the possibility of failure and plan realistically.
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A prenup can hurt pretty bad, especially the big ones, if swung with enough force. I mean the papercuts alone could be nearly lethal.
In reality I see the best thing about a pre-nup is the reality fix it gives a relationship. If you and your signifigant other can sit down and talk about the realities of a breakup, and its financial consequences, then you are one step closer to being mature enough to work out all the problems a marriage may encounter.
If, however, one or the other one of you says, "Oh, lets not talk about it. I lovie dovie youze soooo much we's will never break ups." Think things over.
If one says, "Don't worry about it hun. You are mine, and you ain't ever need to plan on bein without me till one of us is dead" run.
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I think a pre-nup is good if the person you're marrying has had more than three spouses already.
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I think a good long look at your options is in order if the person that you're marrying has had more than 3 spouses already.
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I was thinking about this again and I feel a pre-nup can be viewed as similar to life insurance. Does obtaining life insurance mean one expects to die? That one does not trust God?
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posted
No, I feel that life insurance is something you get BECAUSE you're going to die, which we all do, and because you know that as the primary breadwinner and steward of your family, you are responsible for what happens to them and how they are left when you go.
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posted
I thought you weren't supposed to worry where tomorrow's bread will come from?
Anyway, I think prenups are quite evidently win-win unless there is fraud/trickery involved. If a piece of paper makes you no longer trust your spouse, you have other issues.
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I wouldn't consider it worrying. If there wasn't some level of responsibility my husband wouldn't go to work everyday, since we don't get paid on the day that he works.
We aren't supposed to worry about it, we're just supposed to do it. Meaning, work hard and do what's necessary for your family to live, but if things seem bleak, don't worry about it cause I got your back.
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posted
I'm on the fence with this one. Pragmatically a pre-nup is essential, but the hopeless romantic in me hates the idea of one. Marriage is a time to forge a trust that will last. A pre-nup can only weaken it, even if ever so slightly. Is a possible "escape route" worth putting the crack in the foundation of your marriage that just might necessitate it?
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Do what I did...get married before you actually have anything of value. Ends the whole debate right there.
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How sad, I really like my things. Maybe that's where my problems lie. I should auction off all my possesions, donate the money to a cause, and then maybe a potential mate of good character will unveil himself.
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Well, a ketubah (Jewish marriage contract) is a bit like a pre-nup. It outlines the husband's obligations to the wife during marriage, conditions of inheritance upon his death, and obligations regarding the support of children of the marriage. It also provides for the wife's support in the event of divorce.
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If one of the potential partners is divorced, a prenuptial agreement is virtually mandatory. Otherwise after marriage, one partner could be liable for an increase in alimony payments to the other partner's ex-spouse. Similarly, an increase in child support payments if ones formerly married partner is the non-custodial parent. Might be anyway, but it would be based on just your divorced partner's improvement in lifestyle. Without a pre-nuptial, it might be based on your combined financial assets, which could mean a considerably greater financial outlay.
And there are a lot of other etceteras concerning debts/liabilities which ones partner's ex-spouse might accrue that one might possibly (though not probably) be held responsible for without a prenuptial agreement.
Even without an ex-spouse or children involved, the death of one partner in a marriage could bring out a feeding frenzy on jointly held assets by the deceased's surviving relatives. Better to clearly spell out in a pre-nuptial agreement what property is jointly held and what is held separately; especially if one owns a business or if one prospective spouse has a lot of assets while the other does not. How would you like to find that you owe your in-laws half of the house that you bought, or the business that you built, or the pension plan that you paid for, or the life insurance that was purchased for your own(nuclear)family?
Then there is the degree of liability one has for accidents caused by or other debts accrued by ones spouse after the marriage.
Of course, a lot of these potential liabilities depend on which state you live in. Better to find out what they may be through legal consultation so that you aren't bushwacked after the fact. You can always decide that a pre-nuptial agreement isn't necessary. And have your planned partner also get a good independent evaluation by her/his own lawyer. A lawyer working for her/him may find assets that you want to share -- eg a pension plan that will benefit you only as it is now written -- that your own lawyer won't be carefully looking at or mention if found.
posted
I'll also give a conditional thumb's up on pre-nups.
Every situation is different, but the issues raised in discussing the pre-nup will force the couple to seriously look at themselves, their relationship and how they would handle the worst-case scenarios.
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