quote: The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward part of the belly.
-Gideon's Bible (same as "American King James"
quote:30The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
- KJV
quote:30Wounding blows cleanse away evil, And beatings purge the innermost parts.
World English Bible
quote: 30The bandages of a wound thou removest with the evil, Also the plagues of the inner parts of the heart!
Young's Literal Translation.
quote:30Stripes that wound cleanse away evil, and strokes, the innermost parts.
"A Literal Translation"
quote:30By the wounds of the rod evil is taken away, and blows make clean the deepest parts of the body.
Bible in Basic English
quote:30The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil; so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
Joseph Smith Version
Is it just me, or are these various translations really weird. I get nonsense word salad when trying to parse the versions from the older texts (the non-basic English ones).
Do you think the Basic English translations are accurate, though? They make some sense, but would seem to be missing something.
posted
He heh...I think this ties in with "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Seriously, some of those translations are questionable. I think it means that a beating will drive out evil. The ones that seem to mean something else are probably not very good translations.
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posted
30Wounding blows cleanse away evil, And beatings purge the innermost parts.
This kind of struck me as a prophecy of Christ: the whole wounding blows, and beatings being things that were inflicted upon Him as part of His suffering for the sins of mankind, thus cleansing away evil, and purging the inermost parts.
I could be completely up in the night, however.
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posted
PSI, the "context" is pretty thin in Proverbs. But I'm reasonably sure that Solomon (or whomever) wasn't presaging Christ when he spouted off these things -- at least not consciously.
I wouldn't want to spoil the fun, though.
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I was in DC and I'd run out of fiction -- I purchased an Agatha Christie novel and finished it in something like 2 hours... Oh well.
So there I was, middle of the night. Nothing good on TV. The in-room movies were stuff I'd already seen . Then I remembered that the Gideons are still putting Bibles in hotel rooms and so, I picked up the Good Book and opened it more or less at random.
I started reading Proverbs, but I skipped the introductory material (which mostly doesn't sound like proverbs but a cohesive "lesson" or an attempt at one, at least. The rest of Proverbs though, kind of was interesting. Hadn't gone through it in awhile. I was skimming kind of fast and was like a page or two past 20:30 when I thought "hey, wait a minute! What was that?
I wrote it down in my notebook, which I was going through trying to update my project notes and I saw that I'd written down that one.
Then I looked it up using the SWORD software (free electronic versions of several Bible versions, plus a good search feature). Then I started comparing versions.
This one really is weird.
I'd be interested to see what someone with a background in Hebrew could tell us about the same verse in the "original"
posted
It has to do with the requriment in Judeo-Christianity that blood is necessary for redemption. Therefore a wound cleanses the heart.
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posted
It means that when you're sad you don't have the energy to do bad things, and when you wear stripes it makes your stomach look smaller.
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quote: I'd be interested to see what someone with a background in Hebrew could tell us about the same verse in the "original"
Uhoh, I think that might be my cue. Trouble is, I have never learned Mishlei (Proverbs). But I'll see if I can help at all.
The Hebrew is "Chaburos petza tamruk b'ra, u'makos chadrei vaten."
I don't know all those words offhand, and it's way too late right now for me to do extensive research (or call my mom, who I know learned Mishlei not long ago ). The words I do know: "chaburos"=injuries "b'ra"=in bad/evil "u'makos"=and blows (or lashes) "chadrei"=the (inner) rooms of (usually used like the rooms of a house) "vaten"=stomach
This site translates the verse as: "Bruises and wounds come for diverting all of one's attention to bad; and lashes to the inner parts of the stomach"
Since many of the verses in Mishlei are not literal, I won't try to guess what that means. But I will try to find out.
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As for this question, The Hebrew Translation equates to something like what Rivka said, or simply "Sharp wounds cleanse away evil; so do lashes that reach the inward parts." Nothing in Mishlei can be taken at face value, everything is an allusion to something else, hence the name "Proverbs" (duh). For what it means... You'll have to wait. My shiur is only up to Perek 3. I'll try to find out before then, though.
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posted
Morgaine, yes on both counts. And definitely not the only one -- I know a number IRL. And on these boards, there are several others too.
You're on the third chapter, and we're discussing the 20th . . . so you'll have an answer in a year or so? (Or is it like the shiur I attend on the writings of the Maharal, and it will be more like in 5 years? )
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posted
Well, it turns out that my mom's class (which goes through the different books quickly, doing a general overview and only some specific parts) didn't actually cover the verse in question.
My parents have an extensive library. Here's what I found.
Artscroll's Tanach (Stone Edition). It translates the verse: "Bruises and wounds purge evil, as do blows to the chambers of one's innards." Artscroll's Stone Editions have brief summaries of commentaries at the bottom (usually without citing specific sources unless there are distincly different views). Here, the explanation says: "Afflictions can force a person to reconsider and desist from his evil ways."
The Soncino Press' Proverbs elaborates. The first part of the verse refers to physical suffering; the second to "shattering grief or overwhelming misfortune." Both have the "power of halting a person who has adopted evil ways."
Next I consulted Tanach al Pi haMalbim (Tanach According to the Malbim), which actually has a number of commentaries. (All errors in translation from the Hebrew are entirely mine.) Rashi says, quoting the Sages: "One who pushes himself to do evil will come to blows and bruises."
Metzudas Dovid says that (I'm paraphrasing) physical pain in this world may pull an evil man back from his evilness, sparing him the full punishment of his sins (I assume this means in the World to Come).
Malbim connects this verse to the previous one: "The splendor of youth is their strength, and the glory of the old is their hoariness." He says that a youth who wastes his strength on immorality and sin will suffer in his old age, and age before his time, rather than enjoying the benefits that accrue to one who has spent his life well.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka You're on the third chapter, and we're discussing the 20th . . . so you'll have an answer in a year or so? [Wink] (Or is it like the shiur I attend on the writings of the Maharal, and it will be more like in 5 years? [Big Grin] )
It's a passuk a week, so... yes, give me about 5-10 years. Posts: 66 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
And what's the moral of the story? Taking the ancient poems of a seminomadic middle eastern tribe, attempting to translate them with limited success, then taking them out of their context and interpreting them as a literal prescriptive is entirely pointless, a sissyphean endeavour. Also, commas are confusing when they band together.
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posted
Perhaps, Chaeron. Or perhaps, the moral of the story is that the wisdom one person finds is somewhat different from that another person finds from the same source. And the truly wise person tries to learn from as many people's perspectives as possible.
But then again, as a member of that "seminomadic middle eastern tribe," I am likely biased. And as someone who spent time doing my best to research an answer, I am certainly biased.
Don't get me wrong, I find doing this sort of research a fun challenge. Pointless and sisyphean though it may be.
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posted
I never realized that commas had Banding ability. I wonder if they can get Trample, too. *thinks*
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posted
I think that the meaning can be found by comparing a few other scriptures.
quote: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
sounds related to verse 27:
quote: The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
From this we can glean that the "inward parts of the belly" probably refers to one's inner feelings, the hidden sentiments,
Deuteronomy 25 also seems to throw some light on the subject:
quote: 1 IF there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
The basic idea is that if someone nurtures evil feelings (and in the law, acts on them) then a good beating will go far towards changing their attitude.
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posted
You know, no-one has mentioned yet that in all of these "interpretations, the actual saying doesn't appear particularly wise.
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posted
I agree with Sweet William -- the verse probably has to do with the coming Christ "by whose stripes we are healed". (I Peter 2:24) Meaning his beatings were taken in punishment for our sins and our spiritual sickness.
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quote: You know, no-one has mentioned yet that in all of these "interpretations, the actual saying doesn't appear particularly wise.
Especially in questions of culture, one generations'wisdom is another generations' foolishness. Who knows, maybe if folks were faced with getting the stuffing whipped out of them rather than jail time our crime rate would go down. It makes some sense to use biology for social engineering- we have pain receptors to teach us not to repeat whatever behavior it was that caused the pain.
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quote: It makes some sense to use biology for social engineering- we have pain receptors to teach us not to repeat whatever behavior it was that caused the pain.
Jacare, no offense, but it sounds like any kind of state in which you practiced any kind of social engineering would be a horrific and inhumane authoritarian theocracy, more akin to Iran than modern day democracies. This quote reminds me of the Canadian woman arrested in Iran who was beaten into a coma from which she never recovered and died a week or so later. That'll teach her to take pictures of the outside of a prison.
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quote: You know, no-one has mentioned yet that in all of these interpretations, the actual saying doesn't appear particularly wise.
Perhaps if I were someone who was dealing with suffering, and came across this verse, it might make me do a self-accounting. It doesn't have to be TRUTH: Brand New and Earth Shattering! Plain old truth: consider this, works fine.
Oh, and I do NOT read this as advocating beatings or other physical pain administered by society; rather that pain from God (physical or emotional) ought to make you look closely at your self.
posted
Chaeron- I don't actually support the philosophy myself, but it is a rational one. At any rate, I have no qualms about playing devil's advocate for this issue. The error of your example is that you associate physical punishment with excessive punishment. That relationship does not necessarily follow. If the punishment meted out to the Canadian woman were much less then your point would be nullified.
What if, for example, shoplifting were punishable by two lashes? Would the rate of shoplifting go up, down, or remain unchanged in your opinion? Obviously the more severe the offense the worse the physical punishment would be.
The philosophy behind this is simple: the primary reason behind criminal justice is twofold: 1) to inflict a punishment commensurate with the crime 2) to aid in prevention both of the guilty party repeating the offense and of others who witness the punishment not risking the same punishment.
Our current justice system it seems does a very poor job at both of these. Kayla posted links not long ago of a man who killed two people who were aiding a motorist in trouble. The man was sentenced to 7 years and will likely serve much less than the full sentence. The second point is proved by an examination of the numbers of criminals in prison who are repeat offenders.
quote:Checked out the crime statistics lately? 30 year lows!!!
I was actually thinking of that when I posted on here. However it is irrelevant because we have no clue what the crime rate might be if a different system of punishment were instituted.
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I personally like your interpretation. I don't think it's the only valid interpretation of this proverb, but it is the one that is the most palatable.
Of course, blaming God's desire to teach a person a lesson is not necessarily a healthy way of dealing with a personal crisis either. It presupposes an awful lot about God's training methods.
In other words, this still doesn't sound all that wise to me on closer examination.
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quote:I was actually thinking of that when I posted on here. However it is irrelevant because we have no clue what the crime rate might be if a different system of punishment were instituted.
You're right, of course. I've had several Arab men tell me that there are no homosexual Arab males in any Arab country in the world.
Either they are correct, or the usual way of dealing with homosexuality under Islam is an effective means of repressing those who would otherwise be openly homosexual.
I bring this up because once you start embracing corporal punishment for any and all crimes, you have to realize that beatings sort of become the only method of dealing with anything out of the ordinary and conformist.
And we probably don't need more studies to make the case that kids who were physically abused as children are more likely to become abusers themselves. Now, if every parent had the wisdom of Solomon, maybe we wouldn't have to worry about the idiots who would take this sort of thing "too far."
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quote: I bring this up because once you start embracing corporal punishment for any and all crimes, you have to realize that beatings sort of become the only method of dealing with anything out of the ordinary and conformist.
This is certainly not the case. Beatings become the way to deal with anything criminal , which is quite different from anything non-conformist.
quote:And we probably don't need more studies to make the case that kids who were physically abused as children are more likely to become abusers themselves.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Administering corporal punishment for criminal offenses is not the same as abuse. Children are, I think, affected by abuse because it is 1) out of proportion to any misbehavior and 2) a continuous, long term maltreatment. If this theoretical corporal punishment were instituted then I think if it were to qualify as abuse it would have to include sentences like "ten lashes per day every day for three years"
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quote:This is certainly not the case. Beatings become the way to deal with anything criminal , which is quite different from anything non-conformist
But who decides what is criminal? In some Muslim countries, it is illegal to be Christian.
quote:Administering corporal punishment for criminal offenses is not the same as abuse. Children are, I think, affected by abuse because it is 1) out of proportion to any misbehavior and 2) a continuous, long term maltreatment. If this theoretical corporal punishment were instituted then I think if it were to qualify as abuse it would have to include sentences like "ten lashes per day every day for three years"
Um...a child learns what is right and wrong, and what is IN and OUT of proportion from the same people who would inflict the corporal punishment OR abuse. The point is that what we might call abuse is just good old fashioned "child rearing" in some cultures. Including some subcultures here in the US.
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quote: The point is that what we might call abuse is just good old fashioned "child rearing" in some cultures. Including some subcultures here in the US.
I know many people would like to define child abuse as striking a child in any situation. I don't agree with that at all. I think a smack on the butt from time to time is perfectly acceptable in many instances. My wife was raised by a mother who was not averse to slapping her face if she sassed her and sometimes she would even hit her with her fists. Is that too far? I think maybe so, but I also know that if my wife had been taken away from her mother for that reason it would have been an unmitigated tragedy. Her mother loves her children very deeply and in all cases did what she thought was best for her children.
In other words, what I am saying here is that there is certainly a line to be drawn as to how parents may act with children, but I am not certain where that line is.
Further, I don't see how society using corporal punishment would encourage child abuse. Our criminal justice system puts people in prison for years at a time, yet if parenst were discovered to lock their children in something resembling a jail cell for any long period of time the parents would be prosecuted.
quote:But who decides what is criminal? In some Muslim countries, it is illegal to be Christian.
The legality of an action is a reflection of the morality of the society in question. However, this question is independent of the type of punishment used for illegal behavior, for all that changing the punishment system would mean is that one who was caught breaking the law would be flogged rather than imprisoned.
quote: I agree with Sweet William -- the verse probably has to do with the coming Christ "by whose stripes we are healed". (I Peter 2:24) Meaning his beatings were taken in punishment for our sins and our spiritual sickness.
Technically speaking, you can't. Proverbs was written by Jew, with references to Jewish themes, a thousand years before Christ. You cannot even begin to compare it to the writings of a Christian. Anachronistically and theologically.
quote: Technically speaking, you can't. Proverbs was written by Jew, with references to Jewish themes, a thousand years before Christ. You cannot even begin to compare it to the writings of a Christian. Anachronistically and theologically.
Unless of course one believes in the gift of prophecy. This passage doesn't strike me as messianic neither by content nor by context, however there are many Old Testament prophecies which, from a Christian perspective, are clearly prophecies of Christ.
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quote:Unless of course one believes in the gift of prophecy. This passage doesn't strike me as messianic neither by content nor by context, however there are many Old Testament prophecies which, from a Christian perspective, are clearly prophecies of Christ.
Ok. You are entitled to your beliefs, no arguments here.
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