posted
It's nonsense to say those issues are not feminism but something else. Just as imogen rightly said above, those issues primarly affecting women often get lost or take backseat in overall human rights agendas.
The fact that people think there are no more issues to address just shows how desperately we need feminism. These things are not only horrible, they are beneath many people's radar.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Kasie H:"If I were serious, would you be pissed off yet?"
No, I wouldn't be. Sorry to disappoint you. I've heard a lot worse, and very serious, without ever getting upset or offended about it.
I'm not sure why you are so upset, though. I didn't dispute your philosophy, just the way you expressed it. I said that the statement "I am in control of my destiny and that being a woman in no way limits that destiny" isn't literally true, but that the sentiment you seem to be getting at is a good and valid one. I think I was pretty complimentary, actually.
Don't you agree that there are a whole lot of personal characteristics we all have, including our sex, that do in fact "limit our destiny"? There are all kinds of natural and unavoidable limits on our "destiny," that weren't put there by anyone else, so they can't possibly be unjust or a violation of our rights.
I want to reiterate that i AGREE with the sentiment behind your words. Within certain natural limitations, we each should be free to follow our dreams and aspirations, to fulfill the "destinies" that we set for ourselves. We should not let the blind traditions and prejudices of others stop us from trying to achieve great things, or pursue our own happiness. I applaud this philosophy, and I think that everyone that has posted in this thread would also agree with it 100%.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I believe the idea of "destiny" is at odds with the idea of free will. That is how I'm defining it.
Thomas Jefferson, who wrote "all men are created equal" (I'll leave the quote alone for now) didn't believe in destiny as far as I am aware.
If you are using destiny just to mean a goal of personal fulfillment, I guess that's alright. But repeatedly the feminism proponents in this thread have implied that if you repudiate feminism then you repudiate all the gains from it. I'm saying that if you embrace superstition, you can't also embrace reason and logic. I don't think tolerance of softheadedness should be one of the defining virtues of the cultural feminism I keep talking about.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
BtL, the problem is that I think she actually believes she is correct. And, what if someone else comes along even younger and more naieve and they believe what she says because they read it on Hatrack? I don't do it all the time, but sometimes I feel that rebuttals are obligatory even if the post by rights should probably be ignored. Skewed facts (that don't involve statistics which we can all argue about til we are blue in the face) do a disservice to the greater Truth that we are all trying to find.
Okay, I see. Yeah, I think I'm using it a little differently. I didn't mean it in a superstitious way. I said you are able to "choose your own destiny" -- which implies reason/logic/equality. Perhaps "future" would be a better word...I just meant that being a woman shouldn't impact the choices available to you.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Banna, I figured you were going to say that. And I agree with you, but it's already been pointed out quite clearly that she's wrong. When someone's obviously more interested in disturbing shit than learning anything I'm quite content to let them wallow in it.
And yes, I'm pretty sure she does understand that she's wrong and yes, I think she is primarily here to cause a ruckus. Props for gently correcting her once, but there's no point in entering a discussion with her at this point.
Just thought I’d try and spare you this crusade.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
To say those issues are feminism is to ignore the men and boys who get raped and abused. It's just not accurate. They are not issues about women's rights. They are issues about rights in general.
There is a feminist take on the issue, which tries to cast the rape issue as an example of how our culture works against women and argues that we should consequentially fix our culture to make rape go away. I don't think this take is a particularly good one, though, in contrast to other non-feminist takes. It mainly scares women without doing much to fix the problem beyond vague claims that they should be "strong".
But, that certainly isn't the only view on rape. For one thing, you've got the anti-feminist take - arguing that men have a responsibility to protect women.
Thus saying feminism is not needed is not to say that rape isn't a problem. It's just to say feminism isn't the thing that's going to fix it.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
*hugs* BtL you are a wonderful person. Too bad I'm already taken, because otherwise I might be casting lacivious eyes in your direction, even if you aren't an engineer. Though I guess you room with one...
quote: However I do think it is wrong to say that women are intrinsically more emotional and caring then men, and men are intrinsically more rational and logical than women.
Imogen, what do you mean by this? By "wrong", do you mean inaccurate, or do you mean that it is a morally wrong thing to do?
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Did no one read Kasie's post? She whole-heartedly admires the women in her family who got all the education they could and then chose to stay at home and raise the next generation. She isn't looking down on those who did that - that's what the women in her family did, and I hear nothing but respect from her when she speaks of them.
If you hear scorn, it's coming from other sources or inside of you. It's not coming from Kasie.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Okay, I know that this whole thing occured a couple of pages ago, but I've got to say this:
quote: Oh, and I apologize to all of those women I have enslaved by being liberated. See?
I'll even cry for you!
I'm sorry, but I honestly pity those who want to go back to the 1950s and "Keeping Up with the Joneses."
Like....gah. This entire thread has floored me. I think it's pretty much time for me to step out of it, because...yeah. Seems to me Hatrack is a pretty good crossection of "Red America"...I don't know, but half of the world (the half I grew up in) sees the world a lot differently then most of you people (celia, ak, banna, and others, I'm sorry if I didn't mention you) excepted.
Honestly, people. Wake up and smell REALITY! The world is changing! Women are NOT stuck in the home anymore, and I'm sorry if that scares you! Grow up! Wake up! For your daughter's sake, if nothing else.
Kasie, you are deliberately trying to be inflammatory, and I think you are too smart for that. Why can't you try and get your points across without saying hateful things like this?
Now, based on some of your other replies, I can assume you are thinking something along the lines of, "Good for you, PSI" or "I don't care what you think," but your flippant attitude toward the feelings of the other members of this board make me file you away right where I keep people like Alt. You're intelligent and you spell well, but I rarely even consider what you are saying when you preface it with things like this.
I don't expect you to care; you've made it clear that you don't let the opinions of others dissuade you from what you've already decided to do. I just thought I should let you know. Maybe I'm not the only one that feels this way.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Kasie, I see something missing in the picture, where is the example and influence of men in your life? (father, brother, husband, uncles, grandfathers, etc.) They were useless, I guess, as feminists would consider them just "sperm donors", just something needed to procreate.
I'm not a smart man, but I figure she probably focused on the women in her life because this is a thread about feminism.
posted
It's so apropriate Kat I'm quoting it again.
quote: Did no one read Kasie's post? She whole-heartedly admires the women in her family who got all the education they could and then chose to stay at home and raise the next generation. She isn't looking down on those who did that - that's what the women in her family did, and I hear nothing but respect from her when she speaks of them.
If you hear scorn, it's coming from other sources or inside of you. It's not coming from Kasie.
PSI I think you are mistaking frustration for scorn there is a distinct difference. I don't think that frustration was directed at you, especially considering you aren't in the specific list mentioned by Kasie.
AJ
I am personally getting frustrated by the fact that being passionate on hatrack is becoming less and less socially acceptable regardless of the subject matter discussed. Anytime anyone expresses passion they get shot down unless it is Lalo who refuses to curb his passions.
posted
Sorry, AJ, it may have been passionate, but when is passion a good excuse to say hurtful things? "I'll even cry for you"...?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
PSI if that is hurtful speech we've got major problems at fundamental definitions. This actually may explain why we sometimes keep talking to each other but neither of us can figure out what the other is saying.
I don't see that as being hurtful at all. She is expressing a personal sentiment. There is nothing wrong with that. She is not singling you out. She might be using a little bit of sarcastic hyberbole, but Mark Twain was far more cutting in most of his writing. If that is what you percive as "hurtful" speech, then most of what I write must be downright "hateful" speech to you.
This makes me because I don't know what to do about it or how to change my own communication and interpret yours to make it so that we are communicating on the same wavelength, since I like you and want to get along.
posted
Eh, maybe. I don't think it's scorn for the choice, though. More like scorn for thinking it's the only possible feminine choice.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I think it is mostly frustration. Expressing frustration can easily come out in a scornful fashion, but I really don't think it is scorn. I think if Kasie was actually expressing scorn she would have been far more cutting and contemptuous in wielding her words. I know she's a good enough writer to do so.
posted
[meta-rant]I don't tend to read posts that contain quotes that don't fit on one screen, FYI. I put in enough time reading this thread and I'm not afraid to go back and reread stuff I need refreshing on. But I won't have someone else pick for me which parts of this 9 page thread are *really* worth paying attention to.[/meta-rant]
Tres brings up an interesting point. I think this is the aforementioned trap. He seems to be saying that if a woman isn't strong she needs the protection of a man.
But as mentioned, men are sometimes raped as well. So it isn't physical strength of the victim at issue. It is the pathology of a rapist that will use the threat of deadly force to overpower someone. Or the relative that twists familial ties into overpowering someone. Or the person who uses rohypnol to knock someone out to overpower them.
Stargate, I don't think getting drunk is asking for rape any more than leaving your car unlocked is consenting for it to be stolen. Giving someone the keys is. I don't know what that would translate to.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pooka what size do you have your words set aton the screen? Everyone has their screens set differently, so how are you supposed to know what quotes will fit on one screen and what won't when you are posting?
quote:Tres brings up an interesting point. I think this is the aforementioned trap. He seems to be saying that if a woman isn't strong she needs the protection of a man.
No, I said that was one alternative view that was extremely contrary to feminism.
My view is that women need to take basic precautions - and that rape is and probably always will be a part of mankind, just like murder and theft always has been. You can't make it go away through protests, "awareness," or changing cultural values. Thus, we need to accept and understand the risk - and take the appropriate measures, like not getting drunk or incapacitated, not placing yourself in dangerous situations, and being aware of how to defend oneself.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Tres, I fail to see exactly what your point is as related to feminism. Or is that a PSA tangent? Which is fine, if puzzling.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: Alt, what's really troubling about what you've written is that you seem to be getting your information about this "vaccine" that works on someone's "mechanism" from your brother's girlfriend. You're a girl near the end of your junior year in high school, 16 or 17 years old, and you lack even a fundamental grasp of what birth control is or how it's used. This indicates, to me, a really scary lack of education from your schools, teachers, and parents on what it means to be sexually active... and by all means, please do choose abstinence over any other possible course of action. However, women who HAVE been taught what sex is, what birth control is, what abortion is, and make an informed decision that premarital sex would be okay for them, shouldn't simply be dismissed as "whores".
To make this clear to you, my brother's girlfriend is my age. My brother uses protection. And you've just made me stray from my main topic which was abortion. I don't care what the diffrence between vaccine, shot, medicine, or anything else of a similar type. My mother HAS toaught me about premarital sex, she also told me to avoid it as much as possible, I do know what a responsability it is to be sexually active even though I'm not. And I DO NOT "lack a fundamental grasp as to how birth control is used* Why? pretty simple, I know another girl my age who happens to be a mother. She came out pregnant because SHE didn't know how to handle her sexual life, ok. Please don't try to assume that I'm stupid with out even knowing me, that way the only one here that looks stupid is YOU. Therefore, CUT IT OUT.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I dunno. If someone were speaking about Democrats, or atheists, or the Daughters of the American Revolution as quoted...it might be considered scornful to some extent.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Banna, I never said she was being hurtful or scornful to ME, and I never said she was singling me out.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Alt: if you don't want to be labelled, then don't label other people with as little or even less information at hand.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
PSI, I genuinely don't understand, if it wasn't hurtful to you, then why were you upset about it? Kasie's made it clear that she isn't criticising stay at home moms. And there are people in this thread who have been displaying shocking ignorance. I think those are the people that she was shocked at. I was too.
quote:Tres, I fail to see exactly what your point is as related to feminism.
Well, Anne Kate suggested that we need feminism because rape is a problem, and I was pointing out that feminism is only one of different ways to battle rape - and that the uniquely feminist elements of that feminist approach are not very useful methods of battling it. My point was that you don't need to be a feminist to oppose rape.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Wait, why can I only be annoyed by things that are directed at me?
All I was saying was this: When she gets inflammatory, I begin to ignore her posts, and I think she's better than that.
I wouldn't waste my time saying it if I didn't think she had some good points that needed to be said. I just don't want her to get overlooked because she's acting up.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Alt, I want you to know that I don't think you're stupid. I never said you were. From the look of your work, it seems like you're pretty smart and talented, really.
I do, however, think that you're woefully UNEDUCATED regarding birth control, to the degree that I wonder how much you've been told about sex beyond "don't do it". I don't see this lack of information as something that indicates your level of intelligence, but instead the choices made by the adults in your life regarding what to teach you. It seems that they have chosen not to teach you much at all, and that's what I find troubling, seeing as how I think it's essential that everyone get a thorough grounding in the facts of sex and birth control well before they need to rely on their knowledge of them.
posted
There are more than one way to combat rape, yes. Because more than one way exists doesn't mean that the ways you do not choose are wrong for existing.
So, if I understand what you're saying, you're saying that feminism is irrelevant because one of the social needs they are addressing has more than one source?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
No, because the ONLY important issues they are still fighting are fought equally well, if not better, through other means. Those issues are not really feminist issues at all, but general issues that feminists take a slant on.
posted
He's saying that feminism is not necessary specifically when it comes to rape. Nothing to do with the general relevancy of feminism. His point is exactly what he said his point is in his previous post.
Posts: 3056 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
You have shown that there is more than one approach, but not that the other approaches are more effective.
The "be a nice human being" approach didn't work for a couple thousand years before. "Treat us equally or we'll sue for everything you've got" is marvelously effective.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I wouldn't say that rape is an issue for feminists, UNLESS inadequate measures were being taken to stop it, or punish those who do it. Does anyone have any ideas about the way rape is handled by our law enforcement?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Alt, you say you aren't ignorant about birth control and don't wish to be treated as such. Fine, prove to me you can be an adult. Find me a list of the statistics of failure rates of various kinds of birth control and post the link here. Rebutt me with facts, don't rail at me and I will respect you.
Please note the interchange I just had with PSI in order to understand her position better. Make me want to understand you better. That is what hatrack is all about.
posted
[tangent] I have mine set to largest because my glasses aren't calibrated for use with a computer screen. Still, in the case of the last page I think it was Stargate who used too long of a quote. PSI's was borderline, you and Beren were fine. Using quotes is often good in a fast moving thread like this. But huge quotes that are picked apart at variables are not things I enjoy reading.[/tangent]
Stargate, do you live in an Islamic country? I don't consider a woman traveling alone to be an irresistable temptation to turn an otherwise innocent man into a rapist. Granted if a rapist is already present, he will probably pick on a woman alone rather than one accompanied.
P.S. kat, I don't see that "Treat us equally or we'll sue for everything you've got" is marvelously effective. Isn't the argument that there is still too much rape and domestic abuse? Who do you sue if your friend is being beaten and won't get help?
posted
It is effective. There's the scenario of no recourse at all, it's a family affair or the woman deserves it. And there's the scenario of unacceptable behavior actually has consequences for those who do it.
Stargate, you've got to be kidding me. You have to be a troll.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
It's possible that more rapes have occured because more women are alone at certain times, but you certainly can't blame feminism for the actions of opportunistic psychos.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I hate to say it, but it's possible. It's harder to attract someone who has options than someone who really doesn't.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
decides to spare dkw and not invoke Bob_Scopatz, even though he does appear to be rather hirsute. AJ
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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