posted
I wish I had the time to read this whole post and write long thought out responses, but RL is calling remorselessly today...
However, Kasie, I get your OP and why the boy's comment upset you. It makes me angry when women willingly give up their power to men.
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posted
romylass, Kasie wasn't upset about the mom. She was upset that the boy would believe that about the mom. And I can see Kasie's concern on that. But, then, I usually tell my husband how to vote. Even the year he had an absentee ballot and I didn't.
P.S. I guess I see, ultimately, from how both men and women were willing to believe what the boy said, that some form of feminism is still needed.
P.P.S. Stargate, are you sure you know who Jerry Springer is? I don't, and so wouldn't call that comparison the height of hyperbole that you seem to find it. She is a qualified therapist, but performing on the radio is not giving therapy. I don't respect the character represented on Frasier.
quote: The trouble is that the feminization of education is just leading to a higher quality of woman in already feminized fields like education, nursing, and - within medicine - gynecology.
Um, what is it you think AJ and ak and I do, exactly? I think you're using the next paragraph to try to get out of that hole, but I don't see how you can say both.
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posted
I have a sister who's an engineer also. I'm not trying to backpedal. Are you dismissing that the highest paying careers remain male dominated despite an unprecedented degree of female education?
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Did you mean "of women" or "for women"? Because what you said implies that women getting into other fields either aren't benifiting or aren't high quality (which is at best false and at worst insulting). Or did you mean quantity instead of quality?
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quote:But somewhere along the line, black became white, up became down and good became bad
That's from your little Dr. Laura link, UTAH. (And, I'd like to point out, in the context of the article, there is no small racist overtone to that comment).
Oh, and I apologize to all of those women I have enslaved by being liberated. See?
I'll even cry for you!
I'm sorry, but I honestly pity those who want to go back to the 1950s and "Keeping Up with the Joneses."
Like....gah. This entire thread has floored me. I think it's pretty much time for me to step out of it, because...yeah. Seems to me Hatrack is a pretty good crossection of "Red America"...I don't know, but half of the world (the half I grew up in) sees the world a lot differently then most of you people (celia, ak, banna, and others, I'm sorry if I didn't mention you) excepted.
Honestly, people. Wake up and smell REALITY! The world is changing! Women are NOT stuck in the home anymore, and I'm sorry if that scares you! Grow up! Wake up! For your daughter's sake, if nothing else.
(Small note: the above is not directed at Tresopax, who is arguing against feminism because he believes it hurts *men*, not because he believes it hurts *women.* Different issue.)
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posted
Why do they remain male dominated pooka? That is what celia and I are trying to figure out. Is it truly nature over nurture? Why DON'T we get paid the same? Why don't we have the same level of opportunity and advancement? Why are we just patted on the head and assumed that all we are good for is looking cute?
Why pooka?
If you can give me convincing whys I'll stop disagreeing with you.
quote: What you're saying shows that dr Laura is right , today's generation has been brainwashed by the media who is pushing a liberal agenda.
Okay, everyone, repeat after me... the... media... is... not... liberal.
Don't perpetuate lies.
edit: Okay, okay, so that was an overstatement. SOME media is liberal like The Nation, but there is no freaking way that things like CNN, Time, MSNBC, Newsweek and the like are liberal.
And if you think that Fox News is liberal... well, there's no hope for you.
edit again: Just to clarify, "some" means "very little"
Now my post looks ugly with the edits, but I don't want anyone to reply calling me a liar because I implied that none of the media whatsoever was liberal.
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quote: Honestly, people. Wake up and smell REALITY! The world is changing! Women are NOT stuck in the home anymore, and I'm sorry if that scares you! Grow up! Wake up! For your daughter's sake, if nothing else.
Thank you, Kasie, for illustrating my original point.
There is NOTHING wrong with a woman wanting to stay in the home. It is the FEMINISTS who have made homemaking a dirty word.
Kasie, NO ONE is going to force you to stay at home and rear children. But you have to stop judging those who do want that life. There is nothing wrong with it.
I'm sorry if you are so blinded by your liberal thoughts that you are unwilling to see that the rearing children and providing a good home environment is not "equal" to the standards of feminism.
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quote: but there is no freaking way that things like CNN, Time, MSNBC, Newsweek and the like are liberal.
What? You're kidding me, right? Do you think having one or two conservative commentators saves a news program or publication from being slanted to the left?
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Okay, I figured out why this thread is affecting me so much.
Throughout my life, I never realized there were people who actually thought they way some people on this forum apparently do (Stargate, Rheagar, UTAH). My entire life, my mom (a stay-at-home-mom with an MBA) has told me that I can do anything. Anything! Whatever I wanted, the sky was the limit.
My whole extended family told me that. My aunt single-handedly created the television department at Voice of America. My grandmother has a bachelor's degree, and in the 1940s and 1950s she worked as a social worker, one of the few professions open to women. My dad's mother was a nurse. My familly is full of strong women. My mom and grandmother were also SAHMs. And they taught me that could be a strong thing, too.
The point was that I could determine my fate, my destiny, and no one but myself could limit me.
That belief is absolutely intrinisc to my sense of who I am. I am not going to college *only* to broaden my horizons, to expand my mind. I am going to college because I want tools that will allow me to make a difference in the world. Whatever I might want that difference to be.
I can't imagine a future in which I don't at least try to use my talents to their very fullest potential.
The idea that I am in control of my destiny and that being a woman in no way limits that destiny is absolutely fundamental to my sense of self. It's part of the foundation of the thing that is me, whatever that may be.
Abortion, homosexuality, gun control, the war in Iraq...yeah, I care about those things. But they are not essential to my person.
This is.
[ April 27, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
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posted
I don't think that she meant staying at home wasn't an option. I think she meant leaving the home and getting a career was an option.
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posted
aretee the key word in the quote above is *stuck*
I don't think anywhere on this thread you will find denigration of stay at home mothers or fathers.
But being pro choice should mean that you are glad women are able to make the choice whether they stay in the home or not.
Unfortunately economically many that want to stay home can't afford it near the poverty line. And they are being further hurt by the fact that their wages arent equal to men's wages. Women trapped in low-paying jobs don't have a lot of *choice* either.
Staying at home with or without the kids has always been a luxury of the rich.
I didn't mean to come off as saying that the path of rearing children is a bad one. I don't think it is, and I think it's up to the "standards of feminism". Please read my above post, and the article UTAH posted, and then see what you think.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Kasie that was beautifully written. My mother chose to be a stay at home mom. I do not denigrate her choice. She has a Master's Degree in Education, because her father told her she shouldn't major in chemistry when seh went to college since chemistry was for boys.
She always told me I could be anything. While she may not agree with all my lifestyle choices I know she is proud of me because I'm a chemical engineer and doing what I want and love to do.
posted
Hobbes: thanks. It was not a big deal, I was just amazed at the post. It was so unlike you! I even read it a few times just to see if maybe it wasn't you!
you're still cool, you and your smiley posts. Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I've seen a few arguments about why you can't make the sky the limit (i.e. people, mostly feminists, talking about the glass ceiling and the like) but I don't recall anyone saying that women shouldn't try to use their abilities to their fullest potential. I think I missed something.
[EDIT: Thanks Sun Ohh, and if you're reffering to the links Kasie, then I would certainly have missed something since I admit to having not followed them]
posted
*hugs Kasie* That's exactly it. That's exactly what I mean.
Telling anyone, anytime, that the gifts they have are wrong, that despite the desire, ability, and opportunity to make a fabulous difference, they are wrong and unfeminine for wanting to do it, isn't right at all.
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quote: Do you think having one or two conservative commentators saves a news program or publication from being slanted to the left?
Do you think having one or two liberal commentators saves a news program or publication from being slanted to the right?
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quote: That belief is absolutely intrinisc to my sense of who I am. I am not going to college *only* to broaden my horizons, to expand my mind. I am going to college because I want tools that will allow me to make a difference in the world. Whatever I might want that difference to be.
I will affect generations through my children. I think that is a powerful way to make a difference in the world.
quote: But being pro choice should mean that you are glad women are able to make the choice whether they stay in the home or not.
I am. I posted that when I first entered this thread.
I'm sorry. I overreacted to your over reaction. I have faced the opposite from what most of you are saying. I have been told that I am wasting my abilities and talents because I don't want a career. I want to be the best I can be...as most of us do. But I'm tired of defending my motives to people who think they are enlightened.
I'm sorry I over reacted. I think we are arguing over a semantics and issues. Again, Kasie, I'm sorry.
posted
Why are you rolling your eyes at me when I just reversed what you said? You should be rolling your eyes at yourself.
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posted
(((artee))) I figured that's why you might be upset by what I said. I know that's what you're planning to do and I have ever bit of respect for you . I did make the mistake once of saying something, jokingly, to my mom about how I didn't want to be a SAHM. Big mistake, I felt terrible
But I learned....and now who knows, I might end up being one, I might not....we'll see But that's the beauty of it.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
(I apologize, I've only read about 10% of the posts, so this may be a repeat)
It's kind of like Mona Lisa Smile. Who was the incorrect one? I felt that the statement the movie was trying to make is what Kasie is trying to expound upon. Women and men should be free to make their own educated (educated in the sense of having full knowledge of their options) decisions in life. This should not be affected by the whims of societal condescension. In Mona Lisa Smile (spoilers?) the girl who chose to be a SAHM at the end was making the right choice, because it's what she wanted. She looked into herself and made that decision with full knowledge of her options. The other girl who played the perfect wife but then divorced her husband was not there to show us that SAHM is a wrong choice. She showed us that blind decisions can cause enormous damage to the self and to our loved ones.
Whenever you make a rude comment about how a woman or a man is incapable of making a decision solely because of their gender, you add to society's negativity, society's ignorant assumptions. You make it that much harder for someone to truly achieve.
A true feminist (IMHO) is one who shows how any person should strive to accomplish that which they desire. And no smugness or condescension from the public should stop them.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
aretee, I don't think Kasie was overreacting. I think you are underestimating the difficulties in the workplace that women face in non-traditional careers.
Having said that I support your choice to be a stay at home mom. I think being a parent is one of the most difficult jobs in the world. I freely admit it is a job that I, personally, don't want!
posted
Right, and I wrote in one of my first posts in this thread that I am grateful for those people (men and women) who have paved the way for more women to have those choices.
I'm believe that I'm about to quote Oprah, but here goes. She said that, "Women can have it all. They just can't have all at once." I think that is an important distinction to make.
Okay...thanks for not over reacting to my over reacting. Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Kasie H:"The idea that I am in control of my destiny and that being a woman in no way limits that destiny is absolutely fundamental to my sense of self. It's part of the foundation of the thing that is me, whatever that may be."
A noble sentiment, but fundamentally wrong.
I am more in control of my destiny than anybody else is (in control of my destiny, that is). However, being a man does limit my destiny. Being six foot two limits my destiny. Being near-sighted limits my destiny. Having allergies limits my destiny. Being born in a specific time and place limits my destiny.
I get what you're trying to say, though. You do not wish to be bound by rules of society, past or present, telling you what you may or may not, should or should not, do based solely on your sex. I don't know that anyone here disagrees with that.
See, I don't really see any significant disagreements at all in this thread. I really don't. I think we all agree on the basic premises.
But some of us hear the others saying "I endorse feminism" and assume that they believe X, Y and Z, with which we disagree. And some of us hear the others saying "I do not support feminism" and assume that they believe A, B, and C.
So once again, I think we are completely missing out on what everybody else really is trying to say, almost solely because of misunderstanding of terms. And this is why I don't like the terms "feminism" and "feminist."
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posted
Yes, Kasie, the world IS changing, but not always for the better. The deterioration of the family is not a good thing. It spawns all kinds of ill in the world. I by no means let my husband decide who I vote for, by the way, or what I wear, or what I do for a living. We give each other the freedom to fly, but he is the man, the bread-winner, the father, the head of our household, and my hero, with me standing right there next to him, not behind him, next to him - an equal.
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Do you believe that strong women can choose to be homemakers, or obey their husbands because they believe God commands it?
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quote: But being pro choice should mean that you are glad women are able to make the choice whether they stay in the home or not.
What? Are you using pro choice differently from Pro-Choice?
Celia- I did mean quality and of in that sense. I am saying that while women get a higher level of education, it is not equipping the mass of them to compete with the mass of men, so there is still the gap in higher paying fields. I'm saying that feminist educational remedies are not helping to reach the economic feminist goal (which I'm interpreting to be no wage gap.)
AJ- I didn't know that we are systematically disagreeing, except on Dr. Laura, which I consider to be fairly irrelevant.
quote: Why do they remain male dominated pooka? That is what celia and I are trying to figure out. Is it truly nature over nurture? Why DON'T we get paid the same? Why don't we have the same level of opportunity and advancement? Why are we just patted on the head and assumed that all we are good for is looking cute?
I don't think it's right for you to get paid less or overlooked for advancement. My husband is a massage therapist and it's a struggle for him to succeed in that. Most women and even more men would rather be worked on by a woman.
I guess we accept that separate will always result in unequal. Does different likewise result in being separate?
UTAH: Laura Schlesinger, Ph.D. only has one doctorate and that is in physiology. She is a certified counselor in the state where she resides (which is in California). I say it that way due to the tendency of California to be a little spastic. You know how many items say "this is known by the State of California to do such and such".
posted
And Tom, as for the obeying her husband because God told her...I suppose so, if that's what she believes. That's way complicated, and it goes into who taught her the religiou and blah blah blah....so I don't know, I'd have to spend more time than I have thinking about it.
Then again, I don't see as to how it's *entirely* relevant, because it does assume that the woman should have the right to make that choice in the first place.
posted
Kasie, I'm asumming Tom is reffering to your orginal post (I don't know this is what he's doing, I'm not going to put a whole boat load full of words in his mouth) in which you thought that it was preposterous that your friend thought that his mother would vote for whoever her husband tells her to.
posted
Hobbes, I think the family full of strong women appeared on the last page. While I don't know what Tom was getting at, I personally believe that a woman's commitment to God as she understands him may result in her looking subservient to an outside observer.
Those who feel persecuted as stay at home moms need to get over worrying what the others think of them. Unless you are doing it to be a martyr.
Oh, and someone asked me about required reading earlier. I'd think it was weird if someone hadn't read anything by Orson Scott Card, but as long as they weren't belligerent or obnoxious I guess I wouldn't mind them hanging out here.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
So, in the seven pages since my last post in this thread, I think things have developed to more or less prove my point. This thread seems to have a pretty deep division, largely, in my opinion, because of the problems I mentioned within the feminist movement. Regardless of how any individual feminist may comport him or herself, the movement in general is seen by a rather staggering amount of people as being anti-male and anti-"femininity." In order for the movement to succeed it needs to do more to address these notions, to include everyone. People need to realize that a man can be a feminist, that feminism doesn't mean the end of family values, that being a feminist woman doesn't mean you have to stop wearing dresses or shaving your armpits. And until the movement does become more actively inclusive, until it does more to correct these false impressions that people have about it, I seriously doubt that it can really succeed.
Now, if I could just address a few things from before:
quote:I believe the same attitude also applies toward feminism. As long as there are biological differences between men and women, there is someone, somewhere thinking he is better than the woman he works with or the woman he is married to or even the woman he fathered. The reason feminism is necessary is because our society has made these differences of opinion systemic -- we have institutionalized them. Yes, much progress has been made. But even if things do become equal, we are still biologically different, and therein lies the potential for abuse.
I think that it is very important to use our language precisely here. When you say that the differences of opinion have been institutionalized, that sounds like you mean that the existing laws are anti-feminist, where more correctly the problem is that attitudes held by the people holding financial and political power are too often anti-feminist. It's not the institution itself that is really a problem, it is the people who implement and execute the policies and procedures of the institution that are the problem.
Additionally, while the biological differences do leave room for abuse in even a perfect world, it is necessary to recognize that in a world where all groups have achieved equality, the abuse can always go in either direction.
quote:You're saying women are not equal to men. Well, they are. But there will always be chauvinists and people who pay women less for bigoted reasons. Has there ever been a time without bigotry anywhere in history? While is a valiant and worthwhile fight to try to end it, in the end, it's all rather futile.
It may very well be futile to try to get to a time where no individuals at all are bigoted, but it is far from futile to try to make them the minority. And even if it were futile, that doesn't mean it is not a worthy or important goal.
quote:Saxon, I know that dr. Laura advises against working outside the home because for us it's easy to fall into HURRIED WOMAN SYNDROME, and tend to forget our #1 priorities which are our Husbands and Children.
I don't remember talking about Dr. Laura. Oh wait, you meant "Storm" when you said "Saxon." Don't do that.
quote:Honestly? Because of the thinking behind it. Educating a daughter means educating the whole family. It's for the next generation. Quality of life for the family and the society as a whole is raised because of it.
I really don't want to be antagonistic, but this statement truly does bother me. I have said time and again that I think the role of fathers is undervalued in our society, and I think this quote is an example of that fact.
quote:It should make no difference at all whether I am a female or a male
If you mean that it should make no difference at all in how people evaluate your intelligence, morality, skill, talent, ability as a potential employee, and general worth, I would agree. And I think that's what you meant. But I really don't think a world where differences are completely ignored is either possible or even desirable.
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posted
And there's no hurried man syndrome? Or we just accept that that's they way things will be with the man? Hmm.
I think the number one reason I feel excluded from feminism is their commitment to abortion.
I'm still trying to figure out where I stand on economic/cultural feminism. It seems that we should demand the rigor of equal wages for equal work. That's only just. But to use wages overall as the measure of feminism's success seems a capitulation to the male paradigm.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: *mind boggles* There are vaccines against pregnancy???
Do you know how much female birth control costs? Do you know that it ISN'T included in at least the State of Illinois health care package when Viagra is?
And if there is a vaccine against pregnancy please sign me up!
AJ
Its just something that you administer w/a needle and it somehow stops your reproductive mechanism from working to reproduce for I think about one month or so. An actually I don't think that birth control is something that can be considered THAT costly when you think about the concequences. You could end up pregnant and have to raise a child, which on avg. takes about 1/2 million to raise for 18 yrs., this makes birth control cost less than a nickel. Or the other option is to kill your baby and become a murderer. And if Illinois doesn't include birth control as part of their health care package, then its not my fault the state doesn't think about how such concequences could be prevented.
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posted
I think (no, I'm positive) that she's pointing out your incorrect usage of the word "vaccine."
Vaccines are used to combat pathogens (generally, viruses) by using parts of the pathogen to incite your immune system.
Birth control works by inhibiting the menstration pathway, usually through a progesterone-like chemical.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Kasie, I know which post he was reffering to in the quote, I meant that I think where he was going with it was that you seemed so upset not that a wife may obey her husband in politics, but that someone even suggest that a wife obey her husband in political matters. That would be your story that started off this thread.
posted
Thanks for pointing that out dude. I guess she was trying to do that, but that leaves me wondering how come she didn't mention that so that I understood that she understood what I was talking about.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I think some folks' infertility works kind of like an immune response against either sperm or the zygote. But I'm not aware of research into turning that to birth control. For some reason that sounds really creepy, mainly because infertility is such a heartbreak for many couples.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I grew up learning to wield a hammer, saw, pliers, measuring tape and various other implements of construction. At ten, I was carrying 4'x6' sheets of plywood (praying that a gust of wind didn't pick me up and fling me.) I grew up playing with trucks and climbing trees. I outdid the guys in sheer audacity on my dirtbike and skateboard. I wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with cooking, cleaning, sewing and gardening. Except the results. Like my father and grandfather. Whom I worshipped.
And then I became 12. I developed breasts. Hips. Menstruation.
And my father and grandfather changed their tune.
The world was suddenly closed. The messages I received were along the same lines as referenced earlier by my MiaMaids teacher. Women were good for making babies and keeping house and tending their men. Period.
They are not not alone in their viewpoint. And that viewpoint and drastic change in how they looked at me and treated me were devastating. And I see it continuing. I see violence against women and children being normalized - from cartoons through snuff films. In magazines. In advertising. I also see some gains. More opportunities. But the work is not yet done.
So - on a personal note and on a professional note, yes, the belief that women are equal to men, the belief that all human beings deserve to be treated with dignity and respect are important beliefs and the framework by which I do my best to operate in this muddled world.
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Okay, everyone, repeat after me... the... media... is... not... liberal. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I have faced the opposite from what most of you are saying. I have been told that I am wasting my abilities and talents because I don't want a career. I want to be the best I can be...as most of us do. But I'm tired of defending my motives to people who think they are enlightened.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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