posted
Indeed it is. There's some "fun" stuff coming in that vein. And as always, Jaime is interesting.
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Jaime, thus far, has actually been one of my biggest disappointments. I was thrilled to get a novel that centered on him more, and instead his chapters are pretty blah. I liked him a lot more when he was on the run with Brienne, and Brienne's chapters are mostly boring as well because there's no one there to really push and challenge her except for her inner-Brienne, which is largely tinged with self-doubt.
Arya has had two chapters in like 400 pages, which is a letdown. I really wanted to know more about her.
I dunno. All in all this is probably my least favorite book so far, but I AM still enjoying it, and I'm finding some interesting nuggets along the way. It just seems so slow after Storm. I mean the pace was already slow. But this is glacial.
I still think Dance is going to be announced soon. There have been rumblings in the blogosphere. Amazon I think even has it listed, though not until 2012, which I think is much further away than it will actually be.
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posted
I know what you mean. Honestly, most of the interesting stuff is probably happening in the north and the east in this period. At least, I hope so!
Jon dealing with Stannis has got to be worth reading. Also, Dany deals with dragons and her little kingdom is always a good read. And Tyrion's off doing... something.
I do agree that Feast is the least favorite, but it's not a bad book at all. There's some very interesting stuff, and by the end we get a really good... well, let me put it this way. This book is obviously the lull before the storm. Unfortunately, that means most of Dance will also be lull.
Luckily, Martin has stated he's already past the point where the storyline catches up, and apparently there will be stuff that takes place after the end of Feast.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ...Brienne's chapters are mostly boring as well because there's no one there to really push and challenge her except for her inner-Brienne, which is largely tinged with self-doubt.
They're also boring because we already know that her quest is futile. We know that she isn't going to be successful in finding the girls (it's been a long time since I read it. Is she specifically looking for Sansa rather that Arya, or is she looking for both of them?). The Brienne chapters are a long, pointless slog.
Arya has had two chapters in like 400 pages, which is a letdown. I really wanted to know more about her.
quote:I dunno. All in all this is probably my least favorite book so far, but I AM still enjoying it, and I'm finding some interesting nuggets along the way.
There were small bits of it that I liked, but overall I was incredibly disappointed by Feast. This is probably in large part because I'd been waiting for it for so long, and with such anticipation. Anything short of the magnificence that was ASoS would have been a disappointment, honestly.
quote:I still think Dance is going to be announced soon.
Yeah; I'd be willing to bet that that was what he was going to announce on January 9th, back before he was hospitalized.
quote:Amazon I think even has it listed, though not until 2012, which I think is much further away than it will actually be.
Amazon listing it means absolutely nothing. They often post publication dates that are pure fiction. I'm really not sure why.
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quote:Amazon listing it means absolutely nothing. They often post publication dates that are pure fiction. I'm really not sure why.
Publishers are basically required to provide prospective release dates to distributors, including Amazon. Amazon immediately puts those up on the website, with whatever information they're given, right or wrong. In fact, many publishers have taken to introducing deliberate error into such dates (though usually only a bit, since they do assist distributors in planning), in order to confuse people attempting to compete.
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posted
"Yeah; I'd be willing to bet that that was what he was going to announce on January 9th, back before he was hospitalized."
Ding ding ding. I have no other information than you do, but I don't doubt it for a single second. He also talks about "no more 12-hour work days."
Who wants to bet he's been fulfilling the time-honored tradition of "epic writing binges to meet a deadline"? I know I've done it...
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posted
That's what I figured he meant by the announcement as well. But I mean, he was hospitalized on Christmas Eve. If he was expecting to have an announcement by January 9th, there can't be that much left to do. It has to be a matter of a few weeks, or even days now.
And yeah I figured the release date on Amazon was crap.
Megabyte -
You know I worry that Dance will be a letdown for similar reasons. If nothing is happening in the south, then what can be happening in the north? After all, if anything big happened in the north, the news would circulate to the south right? Unless that's explained away by the bottleneck in the Trident with Moat Cailin and the Twins being such a confused area. I'm still hoping it's great.
Noemon -
Brienne is officially searching for Sansa, but from what I just read, she appears to have just been put on the trail of Arya, though of course we know she'll never get to Arya without going to Braavos. Anyway, yeah, the futility thing is a downer, but, if Brienne was developed as an interesting character, it didn't have to be. Except, what small bits we get about her aren't super interesting. She was a lot more interesting when she was hanging out with Jaime. And frankly, he was more interesting then too.
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quote:They're also boring because we already know that her quest is futile. We know that she isn't going to be successful in finding the girls (it's been a long time since I read it. Is she specifically looking for Sansa rather that Arya, or is she looking for both of them?). The Brienne chapters are a long, pointless slog.
Man, I could have written that myself.
In fact, a search reveals I said something much like it back in 2005: My AFFC thread
Added: Wow, that was a really good thread. I can say that cause most of the great posts weren't made by me .
posted
Man, even reading the first few posts is great.
Not to spoil anything, but Lyr should know too that I like the Iron Islands and Dorne chapters, same as you, Xavier.
Stuff happens there! We have interesting characters doing interesting things! Etc!
The Brienne chapters were dull. I almost skimmed them, and I never skim this story. Except for what it sets up.
Because the whole book is set-up. What's too bad is that there's no payoff. We'll just have to wait for next time, I guess.
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posted
Aww, Belle! While it's been a long time, I'd still say you should go and read Dragons when it comes out.
I mean, who'd expect someone to keep anticipating something excitedly for five, going on six years, right? It's natural for that enthusiasm to wane. And there's no sense waiting that long in rapt attention. But nevertheless, if the series gave you that much enjoyment, and the new one comes out sometime in your lifetime, it might not be a bad use of your time to read the new one!
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posted
Several sites have been receiving some amazing looking packages related to the Game of Thrones... Various bloggers and TV critics received very elaborate packages containing "scent-boxes": kits for making your own incense, with Game of Thrones locations and elements as themes for the scents. Also, a very cool map and fancy scrolls. Impressively produced.
quote:And on other fronts... it's still snowing on Skull Island, but one of the krakens is done and t'other is down to the last tentacle. Closer and closer... inch by inch, word by word, step by step...
I maintain that it will be released this year.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: From Martin's blog:
quote:And on other fronts... it's still snowing on Skull Island, but one of the krakens is done and t'other is down to the last tentacle. Closer and closer... inch by inch, word by word, step by step...
I maintain that it will be released this year.
Yeah, I think this year is pretty likely. If I had to guess I'd say that we'll see it in the Fall.
Posts: 1087 | Registered: Jul 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: From Martin's blog:
quote:And on other fronts... it's still snowing on Skull Island, but one of the krakens is done and t'other is down to the last tentacle. Closer and closer... inch by inch, word by word, step by step...
I maintain that it will be released this year.
Yeah, I think this year is pretty likely. If I had to guess I'd say that we'll see it in the Fall.
That's what I thought the past 3 years....
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: From Martin's blog:
quote:And on other fronts... it's still snowing on Skull Island, but one of the krakens is done and t'other is down to the last tentacle. Closer and closer... inch by inch, word by word, step by step...
I maintain that it will be released this year.
Yeah, I think this year is pretty likely. If I had to guess I'd say that we'll see it in the Fall.
That's what I thought the past 3 years....
Me too. I still think Lyrics is right for some reason.
That probably makes mme insane, by the popular definition.
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posted
Man, I am ridiculously excited about this series. Movie adaptations I usually don't get excited about, since I hate how much of the books get left out. But having a whole series for each book... mmm...
posted
A pretty important one too, as the series rolls on. Maybe not a whole lot of face time early-on, but certainly important.
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posted
Anyone watch the 15 min preview of Game of Thrones?
Lookin pretty good! Some things are a little different visually than I expected, but it looks great. Awesome that you get to see The Wall first thing!
I'm still hemming and hawing a bit on whether or not to get HBO, but, I figure I only have to pay for it for a couple months since the seasons are so short.
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posted
I thought that they did a good job with the exposition in that clip. So far, the only thing I'm not liking is the look of the woman playing Catelyn.
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I have no idea who anyone except Ned is anymore, but I thoroughly enjoyed the preview and I'm looking into ways to get HBO -- my cable provider doesn't offer it directly.
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I'm hoping they'll be putting the series on iTunes as it airs. There are a few HBO seasons on there, but I'm not sure if they release each episode as it airs or just the seasons...
Anyway, I don't have cable and I'm not getting that plus an HBO subscription just for one episode, so iTunes or some other legal download is really my only option to watch this series as it airs.
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I'm not sure what to think about the preview. The archery scene bothered me a bit, particularly Arya shooting the arrow and her family's reaction. I highly doubt Lord Stark would be greatly amused by his children shooting arrows past each others' heads.
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: I'm not sure what to think about the preview. The archery scene bothered me a bit, particularly Arya shooting the arrow and her family's reaction. I highly doubt Lord Stark would be greatly amused by his children shooting arrows past each others' heads.
When you live near the wall and winter is coming, you just might. Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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It appears to bear no resemblance to the series that I read, which makes me wonder how well the series is translating to the small screen. Still, the NYT article seems to be in the minority of reviews.
Alas, I'm not going to be able to watch to night since I can't afford HBO yet. I might break my sacred rule about finding other avenues to watch it, but I'll probably either have to wait until I can afford it, or wait until it hits DVD.
Also, that was pretty patronizing toward women. Frankly I'm not sure why women would only be lured to fantasy for the sex, and why men wouldn't be drawn to that even more so. I think the NYT is behind the times if they think girls don't like fantasy for any other reason than sex. Geek girls are well represented. And for that matter, they're totally missing the point if they complain that ASOIAF has no point other than the characters. The characters ARE the point! The plot is an emotional roller coaster at times, sure, but I've yet to meet someone who was more involved in the overarching plots than the characters.
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posted
I rarely get upset or offended about what someone writes, but the comments about women in the article made me a little angry too.
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quote:“Game of Thrones” is boy fiction patronizingly turned out to reach the population’s other half.
I'm with you guys. What a lack of imagination this writer has! I've only read two reviews so far and both were by people who seem to look down on fantasy as a genre. I'd be far more interested in the reviews of people who actually like fantasy.
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quote:I try to stay away from reviewing other people's reviews; "There but for the grace of God" and all that. But two recent pieces on HBO's "Game of Thrones" -- by Troy Patterson of Slate and Ginia Bellafante of The New York Times -- demand a response because they're deeply condescending.
quote:Imagine if a review of "Deadwood" had mocked the very idea of a Western series telling morally complex adult stories, or if a review of "The Sopranos" proceeded from the assumption that gangster tales are inherently worthless as popular art. You can't. It's unthinkable.
These reviews are also disappointing because they're penned by critics I like. Patterson is one of the sharpest, funniest TV reviewers out there, and Bellafante is the only one of the New York Times' primary TV critics who doesn't write as if the medium were innately unworthy of her time. Something about the subject matter brought out their inner snobs. No other popular genre would be treated with such knee-jerk distaste by critics for major publications.
quote:I was surprised to read Ginia Bellafante's piece in the New York Times, as it manages to do so many wrong things at once. The piece is rife with inaccuracies that could have been avoided by a cursory skimming of the book (or even back cover copy), is openly, even proudly contemptuous of the entire fantasy genre, and -- perhaps worst of all -- is patronizing to women readers.
It's clear that Bellafante was probably the wrong audience for this particular show, but she did not do her due diligence as a critic. If she had, she would have refrained from making remarks such as:
"Given the bizarre climate of the landmass at the center of the bloody disputes -- and the series rejects no opportunity to showcase a beheading or to offer a slashed throat close-up -- you have to wonder what all the fuss is about. We are not talking about Palm Beach."
The series was inspired by the Wars of the Roses in medieval England, which is not a secret (and was mentioned in Laura Miller's recent profile of Martin in the New Yorker), so no, it isn't Palm Beach. People vied for the throne in England even though there was nasty weather. Go figure, but that's history.
The fictitious land of the Seven Kingdoms is not, as per Bellafante, "a universe of dwarfs." The one dwarf, Tyrion Lannister, is genetically disposed to be one -- he is not of a race of dwarfs. This really ought to have been clear, since -- as often happens in our world -- Tyrion's entire family is of average height.
But perhaps the oddest and most noteworthy inaccuracy is the following:
"Game of Thrones is a costume-drama sexual hopscotch... The true perversion, though, is the sense you get that all of this illicitness has been tossed in as a little something for the ladies, out of a justifiable fear, perhaps, that no woman alive would watch otherwise."
Where to begin. I will be surprised if HBO bothered to invent sex scenes for this show, because the books already have lots and lots of sex. If the showrunners have executed a faithful adaptation from page to screen, "illicitness" will run rampant.
But more remarkably, Bellafante is here positing that only men are interested in fantasy.
posted
I got kicked out of my book club for insisting on fantasy instead of the typical girly book club options. (NYT review said no woman would insist on Hobbit)
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posted
I enjoyed it. I understand changes have to be made to transition a book to a visual medium, and generally don't object to that. That said, there are a few small changes that irk me slightly (like Theon telling Jon that Ghost was his, instead of saying Ghost had no chance of surviving and Jon vehemently claiming Ghost, or like them cutting away from Drogo and Dany before she says "yes" to his repeated "no") but overall, I thought it was pretty good.
What was up with Clegane's face, though? That's really the best they could do to make him look burned? Clegane is supposed to be horrifically scarred. That was seriously disappointing.
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posted
I just need to say - I love King Robert. What perfect writing, and so true to the books. When I finally have some free time, I'll be rereading these books again, but in the mean time - the series seems like it's not going to disappoint.
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quote:What was up with Clegane's face, though? That's really the best they could do to make him look burned? Clegane is supposed to be horrifically scarred. That was seriously disappointing.
I saw it last night, I liked the sets, the acting was wonderful, there were some good lines, I imagine many are from the book. "All dwarves are considered bastards by their fathers." was a surprising one. I haven't read the books so as an interpretation of the material found in the books I cannot say how well it does. I try not to judge a show by the very first episode, because in a series like this the first episode has to introduce a whole bunch of characters, their relationships, all in a short period of time. Granted, it's supposed to make us care about the characters fairly quickly, if it's written well, but I'm willing to grant more than one hour and five minutes for that.
Below, thar be spoilers. Lots of them.
I found the nudity to be a drawback in more ways than one. For one thing, and again I haven't read the books, maybe Mr. Martin waxes poetic about a women's areola, but to me the nudity felt very gratuitous and tacked on for nudity's sake. OK, Tyrion is lecherous that's fine, he likes women, and lots of them. Daenerys' brother apparently has no problem undressing his sister and running his hands over her while checking her out, and then right after that she decides to step into a bath while the water is too hot. Why? No reason. What was the purpose of that scene? We get a better sense that Viserys is a complete dick because when his sister protests his giving her away in marriage later he responds in essence, "I'd let any number men and even animals have their way with you if it gets me what I want." So he obviously doesn't love her.
Then there's the wedding ceremony where apparently sex and murder take place openly. OK, fine, that particular culture has those features, I mean when the crew of The Bounty got to Tahiti they were shocked to find that the natives indulged in public sex during religious ceremonies. I can accept that I suppose, then the next scene we see Daenerys' deflowering. I didn't like the scene, we see her husband undressing both of them, and she's crying. He wipes a tear off her face, and we think maybe he's the sensitive type, NOPE! He pulls those clothes off and when she attempts to cover herself, I don't know why, she seemed fine with her bro oogling her, her husband pulls her arms and hands away, bends her over, and, well, you get the picture. Actually in this instance you do get the picture, because they cut away before teh sex actually happens. My theory is they were worried about being repetitive, since we already saw doggy style featured at the wedding, and we are going to see it again later before the episode is over with Cersei and Jaime . We wouldn't want our sex to get boring! Another thing about the deflowering scene that bugs me is she is obviously terrified about being married to her new husband including the apparent development he can violate her whenever he pleases now that they have tied the knot. As I said before he takes her clothes off, she covers herself, he doesn't take no for an answer and jerks her hands away thus exposing her breasts to our, but not necessarily his view. That makes me feel like I'm part of what he's doing, I'm benefiting from her rape. It's creepy.
So finally at the end of the episode Bran stumbles on Cersei and Jamie doing the bad thing. Apparently this whole brothers and sisters getting friendly with each other is a staple of the show/culture/book? Taken in isolation the scene is no big deal, what they are doing is obviously scandalous, we need to know that information,Bran pays for being nosy, and it furthers the plot.
Maybe this is just a quirk with me, but having Tyrion's lengthy booby scene, followed immediately by Daenery's boob scene, with Daenery's wedding scene featuring boobs, followed by her wedding night brought to you by her boobs, just seemed like the director felt that we as the audience can't get the full impact of what's happening without seeing the actresses naked, and often, for long periods of time. I could have seen just the five naked girls walking into the room with Tyrion to get the impression he likes sex. As I said before an episode has only so much time to introduce characters and establish their relationships. Do we need to see Tyrion getting a blow job and bantering with an unimportant whore before Jaime walks in and offers him more whores? Toss out the scene with Daenery and Viserys chatting while she's about to take a bath, use those five minutes somewhere else, heck maybe have a real scene where she actually protests her part in this crappy plan where she does all the suffering and her brother gets all the benefits, by, you know, actually arguing.
I'd leave everything else as is, and there, for the first time in my life I've complained about boobs.
I'll watch one or two more episodes, but there is so much more to a story than who is sexing who, and what position are they using. There was plenty else to the show I found compelling. I actually felt the tension in Ned's choice to become the King's Hand, or else stay up North. I understand why Jon Snow wants to get the hell out of Dodge, I'm curious about the Night's Watch. In the preview we see Tyrion goes with him to The Wall, that intrigues me, I think the two of them will have an interesting relationship. I felt furious when Bran got pushed out that window, I care about him, and I already disliked Jaime, now I hope they find out he did it, so Ned can cut his head off, I'm sure it will be impossible to implicate Jaime for some reason, but they will have their suspicions. That's good drama! End of spoilers.
Addendum: It turns out that some of my objections are liberties taken by the TV show with the book's material. Reading the book does assuage some of my gripes, but certainly not all, or even most of them.
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posted
EDITED: Some SPOILERS here, as it's in response to BlackBlade's post. Nothing really new to his, other than to note that things get more complicated. Given that this is GRR Martin, that's no surprise, but you are forewarned.
* * * *
BlackBlade, I also was suprised by the amount of nudity. It wasn't what I was expecting. I think I may be able to explain some of the choices, though, even if they would not have been my choices.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Daenerys' brother apparently has no problem undressing his sister and running his hands over her while checking her out, and then right after that she decides to step into a bath while the water is too hot. Why? No reason.
As a woman, to me this viscerally said she is trying to wash the touch of his hands off of her body. The water cannot be hot enough for that. She looks appalled, trancelike, dissociated from her body. Like she cannot bear to exist in it.
quote:What was the purpose of that scene?
I think to underscore that he is sick and that she is trapped by being bound to him. There are hard times ahead, and some of her choices and character development may only make sense in terms of where she came from: not just between a rock and a hard place, but under a star-sized anvil, on a bed of hot lava.
quote: He pulls those clothes off and when she attempts to cover herself, I don't know why, she seemed fine with her bro oogling her ...
I think she was highly uncomfortable at it (see above) but essentially paralyzed. Her brother is The King in their shared view of reality -- which is determined by him. And he is Crazy.
quote:We wouldn't want our sex to get boring!
I think the decision not to show it in the context of all that was shown before is as way of underscoring it. The mind of the viewer goes there on its own, and that engagement is more viscerally powerful this time. It's like showing, not telling in writing. Engage the reader's brain, and they are more involved.
[Added: JT has done this with one of his songs, as has Tom Waits and many others. You write the song so that it leads up to this one word, one which fits the meaning and the rhyme and the rhythm. Then you don't say it. You don't say anything, just pause at that point, then resume.
That's the loudest word in the song, even though it was never said.]
quote: That makes me feel like I'm part of what he's doing, I'm benefiting from her rape. It's creepy.
Yeah. I think the choices were made (see above) exactly to get to this point. And what you have at this point is a woman with. nothing. left. She is the definition of a pawn, a puppet. She isn't allowed to have her own thought or will, much less control over what happens to her body.
[It's bad. It's gross. Just seeing it makes you feel tainted; imagine what it is like to live it. Again, this is all about putting her in an extreme position.
Now having read the book, you know different choices were made here. I am not sure how much of that deviation will carry through. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure we are meant to understand that she has been placed way, way outside the comfort zone of anything normal or comforting. How and when and why that changes -- and if -- is going to be the meat of her story.]
quote:Toss out the scene with Daenery and Viserys chatting while she's about to take a bath, use those five minutes somewhere else, heck maybe have a real scene where she actually protests her part in this crappy plan where she does all the suffering and her brother gets all the benefits, by, you know, actually arguing.
I think the point is that she can't argue. She tries in a relatively small voice, saying she doesn't want to marry him. She is immediately Shut Down by The Crazy.
quote:Addendum: It turns out that some of my objections are liberties taken by the TV show with the book's material. Reading the book does assuage some of my gripes, but certainly not all, or even most of them.
Yeah. There were different choices made here. I think the choices were made to use the visual medium to underscore certain things, in part because the movie director cannot spend paragraphs explaining what characters are thinking or doing, whether overtly or covertly. It's just a different medium with different tools.
But I, too, walked away saying, "Dang. I feel like I know those women much better than I anticipated," as it were.
posted
From your description, it sounds like the show is absolutely nailing the novel. Sexuality is a dominant aspect of the novels. Raping and pillaging it rampant, though, not always the most important aspect. Sexual conquest and facets of relationships do play a major role in the novels though, and while the boob imagery may not be highly important, knowing that a lot of these sexual relationships are going on, and their specific dynamics, is pretty important down the road.
SPOILERS
If you want some specifics to your complaints. 1. Viserys and Daenerys are the last of the Targaryens. Traditionally. the Targaryens do wed brother to sister to keep the family line pure. There was an exception to the rule with Rhaegar, but by and large it is tradition. Viserys and Daenerys would normally have been wed, but instead she serves as Viesery's bride price to win back what he sees as rightfully his. Women are, for the most part, political pawns and chattel when it comes to marriages for the majority of the families. There are a few exceptions for some particularly strong women who break out of the mold. Judging from your reaction and description, the scene conveyed quite a bit of info.
2. Yes, the scene between Khal Drogo and Daenerys is rather unfeeling, though the book describes it with a fair bit of what might pass for intimacy, but that's the society, and you describe it pretty well based on what's in the book. Daenerys needs to NOT argue with Viserys because at this point she's still just a child, and feminism as you're perhaps trying to apply it simply doesn't exist in this world. However, that doesn't mean things will always stay this way. It's a starting point.
3. As for Jaime and Cersei, no, incest is NOT s staple of the society. Theirs is a deeply forbidden relationship, not only because she is married to Robert.
I think a lot of your problems will evaporate as the characters grow and evolve, but I'm beginning to see how things might get lost in translation from the books to the show. I'm planning to watch it tomorrow night, then I'll give my two cents.
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