quote:At any rate, I always request an aisle seat. That way, as long as the cart is not being pushed up and down the aisle, I can lean that way and not disturb my neighbor. I've gotten quite adept at holding this uncomfortable position for hours at a time.
I do this too.
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I don't know that anybody's really looking for weight loss tips in this thread.
Do I have to quote this again for emphasis, or will people get it with just once?
Seriously, do you honestly think that ANYONE who has posted in this thread doesn't know what you are saying? Really? How incredibly insulting if you do (considering the average level of both intelligence and education around here). And how incredibly insulting if you do not, and yet keep repeating the same damn things we hear all the time.
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So have I, actually. *shamefaced* I completely agree with quidscribis, because condemning and offering advice to someone who hasn't asked for it generally takes a huge amount of presumption which is only possible because of the disrespect. That people think they do know better is a sign of the lack of respect.
I do not think that Zeugma was doing that, though. She didn't talk about mentally condemning people's character while sitting in on the subway like others do. We have been talking about what it takes to lose weight.
Though (as I equivocate madly), the last line was probably one too many. Still, the other stuff is worthwhile, I think.
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If you got some good tips, I think it's more of a case of your making the best of a tacky situation, rather than saying anything about the appropriateness of the "tips."
ETA: Zeugma's post wasn't bothering me, except the end reminded me that I wanted to point out that it's not a weight-loss tips thread, and even though I know threads tend to go off in all sorts of directions, nobody's really looking for tips. Come to think of it, I probably participated in some of that yesterday.
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Several people have mentioned reasons that weight loss is extremely difficult for them, and used these reasons to justify why they were obese. It sounds like a lot of people here have the attitude that it is pretty much impossible for them to lose weight, so why bother trying.
Zeugma, coming from that position herself, has been attempting to give "tips" to show that even though its extremely difficult, its not impossible. She's trying to convince people that they can still do it, even with the obstacles they face, and she is giving advice for how to do so.
For this, she has been pounded on for offering unwanted and uneeded advice.
I think you guys are being overly harsh, and fairly rude.
Its the natural instinct to offer advice when someone clearly wants to do something, but hasn't yet, because they feel like its too difficult. Especially when you went through the same thing yourself!
In a thread about discriminating against smokers, imagine someone stating that it was impossible for them to stop smoking, for some given reasons, and so they have no choice but to be a smoker. Would it be rude for a former smoker to offer advice in dealing with the same obstacles they had to overcome to beat the smoking addiction?
I don't think it would be. I would think the smoker rude for jumping down the former smoker's throat for trying to be helpful.
quote:Personally, I'd say butt out. Don't offer free advice. Don't assume that we're too stupid to be able to figure things out on our own. Don't assume that just because you've got a solution that works for you, that you therefore have the solution that will work for everyone else. Don't assume that it's any of your business. Don't assume that all we need is a little more shame or a little less dignity or a little more convincing.
Personally, I'd say try not to overreact. What's wrong with offering someone something that may help them and they may not know? I know it's unsolicited, and since I've seen very well how sensitive people are about their weight I surely don't offer if they don't ask, but I don't think it's fair to jump someone who, it seems, is just trying to be helpful.
So what if you know it? Congrats. I get told things I know at least three times a day. You know what I say? "Thanks." Then I move on. Not that big a deal, especially since I know the reason they're telling me those things is because, if I didn't know them, my life would be a little harder.
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Tante, pH....I apologize. I got angry and responded very immaturely, there's no excuse for that. If you'd like I can delete my posts, or leave them, it's up to you.
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quote:I was openly mocked and ridiculed more than anyone I know who is over weight.
I have to admit that I find this hard to believe. I mean, I can understand how it might be possible, but it's certainly been my experience and observation that even people who are on the verge of starvation -- the ones who are most likely to have their thinness be the subject of comment -- are generally assumed to be ill and suffering from something in a way that the obese are not.
I've seen a few thin people called a "beanpole" in my presence, and of course I've heard the whispered, semi-jealous speculation on whether or not Actress X is anorexic, but that's about the worst of it that I've seen.
If it's not too painful, could you elaborate more on the nature of your teasing? I've honestly never seen it, so I'm curious.
Like I said before Tom, you don't see because you've never been skinny. Quite honestly, I have many women friends who were over weight and it was always considered taboo to say anything about weight in their presence. I was never given the same consideration, even when I was hospitalized for malnutrition, my over weight friends would joke about how skinny I was.
I've been called everthing from 'Bony' to 'chicken legs'. People joked about how I could hide behind a pencil, how if I turned sideways I'd disappear, how I could be blown over by a gentle breeze, carried away by a helium ballon, hang glide from a 1 dollar bat kite. ad nauseum. Then there was the joke about how I could wear my bra backwards and never notice the difference. I've forgotten most of the others about my complete lack of figure.
And what was worse than the all the jokes, was the out right hostility I got from many many women who were trying to loose weight.
I can understand that you don't see it. You want to be thinner so skinny jokes just don't seem hurtful to you.
Quite honestly, I've never seen a fat woman made fun of to her face ever. I have not seen a fat person teased about their weight since I was in elementary school. I can believe that I'm just not sensitive to the issue, just like you are not sensitive to jokes about being skinny.
Trust me, fat people are not the only ones who get made fun of for how they look.
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As a matter of fact it is my opinion that everyone, absolutely everyone has at least once been mocked for his appearance.
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Ah. See, I just question the motivation of people who tease skinny people.
People who tease fat people do it because they're revolted. Do you think people tease skinny people for the same reason?
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I'd just like to say skinny tall girls are hot and I don't get why anyone would tease them, I really don't.
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I lost a good deal of weight doing what Zeugma does. And when my friends and relatives talk about their inability to lose weight, I suggest that because it worked for me and was the first thing that did. And losing weight made me happier and so if I can help people I care about to feel happier to, I would like to. I don't start the conversation, but if they mention how diet x fails or how they just can't lose the weight, I figure that it is then appropriate for me to share how I lost so much. I would not go up to my friend though and say, wow, you're fat, here's how I lost weight, you should too.
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Hmm. I think a lot of teasing occurs because people want to tease someone, and anyone who is visibly different is an easy target. So while the teasing may be claiming to be revolted, I'm not sure it's the reason for the teasing. And visibly different applies to excessively skinny people, as well. Although I would be there's a dose of jealousy in there, too.
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quote: In a thread about discriminating against smokers, imagine someone stating that it was impossible for them to stop smoking, for some given reasons, and so they have no choice but to be a smoker. Would it be rude for a former smoker to offer advice in dealing with the same obstacles they had to overcome to beat the smoking addiction?
I want to point out that smoking and overeating aren't quite comparable in this situation. Smoking is bringing in a drug from the outside. People try it, people become addicted, their health suffers. Whereas food, you need it to *live*. Every meal is a battle between sustainance and an addiction, and things like exercise and nutrition and everthing that has to do with weight and sustainance bring in so many factors into the mix that there's no way being overweight is as simple as being a smoker.
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quote: Every meal is a battle between sustainance and an addiction, and things like exercise and nutrition and everthing that has to do with weight and sustainance bring in so many factors into the mix that there's no way being overweight is as simple as being a smoker.
I didn't claim it was. However, I don't see how the differences between them are significant when deciding when advice is, or is not, appropriate.
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quote:I think a lot of teasing occurs because people want to tease someone, and anyone who is visibly different is an easy target.
THIS is true in grade school; in fact, I'd argue that in grade school, the teasing fat kids get and the teasing skinny kids get is roughly equivalent. This changes fairly rapidly as you get older, though.
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"This changes fairly rapidly as you get older, though."
Not in my experience, Tom. There are people I work with now who still function that way. If they're unhappy about something, they're looking for someone to take it out on, and it doesn't have to be at all related to the source of their unhappiness. Making a snide comment about someone else or repeating unflattering gossip serves to make them feel better about themselves.
Mind, the people I know who do this are jerks. But they certainly exist as adults.
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Erosomniac asks: "While I'm sympathetic to your situation, I think you need to re-read this thread, like I just did. I'm honestly having trouble figuring out what it was that's making you so upset."
Let's try this. My son's name is Chris.
Squicky says: "I don't hate Chris, but neither am I going to treat him like anyone else. Because he is different.
I find Chris unpleasant to look at. As someone who plays sports 4 or 5 days out of a week, I am less likely to be interested in developing a friendship with him. While this is by no means a set thing, I have found that the fat people I know tend to be lazier, mentally and physically, and less up for going out and doing things."
BaoQingTan: I'll be brutally honest, even if it's not very complimentary of myself. Although I don't hate Chris, I do find myself digusted at an almost subliminal level. I've come up with justifications for these feelings, but it's really all they are.
If I were single, there would be zero chance of me dating Chris. I'll probably be called shallow, but physical appearance is extremely important to me. Not just weight, but grooming and hygene. How Chris presents himself tells me a lot about him."
Lalo says: "I don't think it's victimization to say that being overweight is unhealthy, or even to infer sloth or gluttony when observing [Chris] -- at least, no more than it is to infer sloth when observing the consistently unwashed."
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I've noticed that more than half the people who make comments about my weight, who point and laugh and visibly demean me in other ways are at least as large as I am - I may be fat, but I'm not nearly as fat as a lot of people - and/or are not what I would call anywhere near physically attractive. That has made me come to the conclusion that their motives have to do with making themselves feel better, and the only way they can find to do that is to make fun of someone else. They feel so badly about themselves that they only way they can feel better about themselves it to feel like they've made someone else feel even worse about themselves.
And the rest of them? The thin, good-looking ones who make comments? Well, I've noticed that a lot of people think that fat people are not just fat - they are morally and spiritually deficient, that being fat isn't a health problem, but a character failing. Basically, they think that being thin - just being thin - makes them superior to everyone else.
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quote:This changes fairly rapidly as you get older, though.
Even on Hatrack I've seen comments about "Real women" having curves when referring to a skinny celebrity. I've seen more than one person here speak of people below a certain weight/body type as unnatural.
People don't like being told that they do have the time to eat better/exercise/whatever, but I've seen many comments here about having "better things to do" than exercising.
There's an almost palpable dislike and a fairly explicit set of negative judgments levied at people who are fit or underweight that surfaces predictably in certain kinds of threads here.
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Sharpie, I found the comments you quoted (albeit revised) to be as distasteful as you did. They are certainly entitled to their opinions, as I am to mine regarding them.
Try not to let it get to you. There are a lot of people out there who don't base their friendships on appearance, and we're better off knowing these things right off. It is likely that both parties would find a friendship between two people with these fundamentally different philosophies mutually disagreeable, so why bother?
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quote:Even on Hatrack I've seen comments about "Real women" having curves when referring to a skinny celebrity.
The subtext here is that "real women" are not unnaturally perfect, and that "real" women shouldn't feel that they have to live up to an unreasonable standard. Frankly, I could cope with being mocked for being too perfect.
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Except it's clear they're not "too perfect" to the people making the comment. They can be dismissed as irrelevant because they're not even real.
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Actually, the images we see of the perfect, skinny celebrity are often NOT real. They are touched up in drastic ways. This is in magazines--I think it'd be quite hard to change things on camera.
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quote:Even on Hatrack I've seen comments about "Real women" having curves when referring to a skinny celebrity.
The subtext here is that "real women" are not unnaturally perfect, and that "real" women shouldn't feel that they have to live up to an unreasonable standard. Frankly, I could cope with being mocked for being too perfect.
I may not be a woman, but even at 6'3" and 150 lbs -- just barely above "underweight," and as I said, I've been as low as 140 -- I like to think that I'm "real."
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I'm sure you are. In fact, I'm saying the purpose of comments like "real women have curves" is to make people who are insecure about their curves feel better about them, not to make people who have no curves feel inadequate.
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quote:I'm saying the purpose of comments like "real women have curves" is to make people who are insecure about their curves feel better about them, not to make people who have no curves feel inadequate.
And the people who tease "the fat kid" are trying to feel better about themselves.
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quote: Okay, I'll get ready to defend my sexuality in three... two...
Lalo and TomDavidson sitting in a tree K.I.S.S.I.N.G First comes LOVE Then comes MARRIAGE Then comes a....a...ummm...hmmm...*off to childishly ponder what could possibly come next*
Well, somebody had to do it!! Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Squicky says: "I don't hate Chris, but neither am I going to treat him like anyone else. Because he is different.
I find Chris unpleasant to look at. As someone who plays sports 4 or 5 days out of a week, I am less likely to be interested in developing a friendship with him. While this is by no means a set thing, I have found that the fat people I know tend to be lazier, mentally and physically, and less up for going out and doing things."
BaoQingTan: I'll be brutally honest, even if it's not very complimentary of myself. Although I don't hate Chris, I do find myself digusted at an almost subliminal level. I've come up with justifications for these feelings, but it's really all they are.
If I were single, there would be zero chance of me dating Chris. I'll probably be called shallow, but physical appearance is extremely important to me. Not just weight, but grooming and hygene. How Chris presents himself tells me a lot about him."
Lalo says: "I don't think it's victimization to say that being overweight is unhealthy, or even to infer sloth or gluttony when observing [Chris] -- at least, no more than it is to infer sloth when observing the consistently unwashed."
I don't see where those comments are out of line.
I also don't see where anyone said they base their friendships on appearance.
quote:that being fat isn't a health problem, but a character failing.
In many, many cases, being obese is indicative of a character failing. There are plenty of cases where people's situation and/or medical status make it extremely difficult or even impossible for them not to be obese, but in the vast majority of cases, this is not so.
This doesn't make them inferior - as I said, one's weight and one's inability to control it is only one aspect of who a person is - but it does betray a personal weakness.
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quote:Frankly, I could cope with being mocked for being too perfect.
Well, Tom, just because you could, doesn't mean that the person being mocked doesn't feel real pain that hurts him or her just as much as it would hurt you to be mocked for being overweight.
This is a huge issue for me and it really hurts my feelings to be dismissed. I spent the majority of my life as a very skinny girl with a natrually large chest. I can assure you that the ridicule and discrimination that I endured was every bit as damaging as what an overweight person endured. When people see a woman who looks like I did, they think that she's stupid and promiscuous and shallow, because she obviously had plastic surgery. Not only that, but it's plain dangerous for a young girl to have a figure like mine - I quickly learned to wear clothes to hide my figure and to watch every single word I said to a boy or man. And I didn't dare complain, because most of my friends thought they wanted a figure like mine and would be furious and nasty if I said a word about it.
I'd be happy to take you through the years of torment I experienced and the self-doubt and self-loathing I felt before I grew up and learned to live with it if you care to wait until Aerin goes to sleep. Until then, you'll just have to take my word that even people with "perfect" figures have feeligs, too.
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I don't think it is a character failing. I think that it can be seen as a result of choices, but I don't think that working out is a virtue. I think it's good to do, but it's no more indicative of goodness than reading the Bible every day is indicative of goodness.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'm sure you are. In fact, I'm saying the purpose of comments like "real women have curves" is to make people who are insecure about their curves feel better about them, not to make people who have no curves feel inadequate.
I don't really think that makes it better.
Added: To be clear, what I'm saying is that there's no need to get into what amounts to a persecution complex pissing contest. A lot of different people have been mocked and teased for a lot of different things; belittling the teasing of others isn't constructive. While it might be fair to say that overweight people are mocked or teased more frequently for it than other people are teased for other reasons, I don't think it's useful to say that the teasing they suffer is inherently worse -- at least not without some sort of actual evidence to support the assertion.
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quote:And the people who tease "the fat kid" are trying to feel better about themselves.
You know, I don't think this is the case. As has been noted on this thread, several people have said some astonishingly hurtful things out of a desire to be helpful.
quote:Until then, you'll just have to take my word that even people with "perfect" figures have feeligs, too.
And the rich have problems. That doesn't mean they're not problems I would gladly trade for.
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The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that working out is not, by itself, a sign of character. For a lot of people, their motivation to work out is because they like the attention they get from the opposite sex. More power to them, but that's not something they should be praised for. Needing attention is not a great virtue.
Other people work out because they want to live longer for the sake of their families. That seems like a more worthy reason.
In other words, it isn't the action, it's the motivation behind the action. It is a good action nonetheless, but what it means about the actor depends on the reason they are doing it.
I think that people like to do what is rewarding to them. Everyone can benefit from exercise, but some people get onto the basketball court and there they are a star. Someone else works their tail off to be merely adaquete, but are amazing musicians. So, they play less basketball and practice music more, while the basketball player busts his chops to produce the base line to Louie Louie.*
Is the basketball player really more virtuous for playing more?
* Louie Louie being chosen because I can play the base line to it, which shows how little talent/work it takes.
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quote:You know, I don't think this is the case. As has been noted on this thread, several people have said some astonishingly hurtful things out of a desire to be helpful.
Which means they weren't teasing. They might still have been hurtful, but they weren't teasing.
quote:And the rich have problems. That doesn't mean they're not problems I would gladly trade for.
You seem to take quite a bit of affront at the notion that others don't understand what you go through due to your weight. Why not try to put some of that empathy you'd like to see into action yourself.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I also don't see where anyone said they base their friendships on appearance.
I think you did, when you said this:
quote:I don't hate fat people, but neither am I going to treat them like anyone else. Because they are different.
I find them unpleasant to look at. As someone who plays sports 4 or 5 days out of a week, I am less likely to be interested in developing a friendship with them.
I think you could make the argument that you're basing your friendships on the mutual love of physical activity, but since you are writing them off as potential friends simply by looking at them, I think it is immensely fair to say that you're basing your friendships on appearance.
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quote:To be clear, what I'm saying is that there's no need to get into what amounts to a persecution complex pissing contest. A lot of different people have been mocked and teased for a lot of different things; belittling the teasing of others isn't constructive. While it might be fair to say that overweight people are mocked or teased more frequently for it than other people are teased for other reasons, I don't think it's useful to say that the teasing they suffer is inherently worse -- at least not without some sort of actual evidence to support the assertion.
I'm not trying to compare teasing. I am trying to say that the principles that people are invoking to decry some of the statements that have offended people in this thread are regularly violated in the other direction. If we want to make sure those principles are honored, we should attempt to do so evenhandedly.
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"Less likely to be interested in developing a friendship" does not equal "writing them off as potential friends."
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Sharpie, to be blunt: you need to get over it. Replace fat, overweight or whatever applicable weight-related term with the equivilant to apply to Mormons, Christians, Scientologists, Satanists, Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, blacks, whites, rappers, people who live in trailer parks, homeless, the wealthy, single mothers, gays, divorcees, or fill in your own favorite demographic about which you hold a generalized negative stereotype.
quote:The subtext here is that "real women" are not unnaturally perfect, and that "real" women shouldn't feel that they have to live up to an unreasonable standard. Frankly, I could cope with being mocked for being too perfect.
Ok, so the people who are naturally skinny or have stereotypically "perfect" figures should be made to feel that they are the freaks, who are putting unnecessary social pressure on people heavier than them simply by existing?
Maybe I just really don't get it.
Edit: And in the time it's taken me to calm down enough to write this, there are dozens of other responses inbetween. Damn you, posting time!
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: "Less likely to be interested in developing a friendship" does not equal "writing them off as potential friends."
Frankly, the difference between the two means little, at least to me. In fact, the first one implies a testing period, where MrSquicky determines whether or not the fat person is worthy of his friendship. At least the second interpretation makes his requirements clear.
And I suppose that it might be suggested that all of us have a testing period, usually casual, where we decide whether or not to be friends. I would just suggest that *I* find some criteria for this testing to be more worthy than others. MrSquicky is certainly free to think whatever he chooses, and I am am free to think less of him for it.
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Not saying you were, twinky. Just clarifying my position. Sorry I didn't make that clear in the previous post.
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quote:Frankly, the difference between the two means little, at least to me.
The first doesn't necessarily imply conscious use of the factor in selection. The second definitely does. That's a huge difference.
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It's not okay to put down skinny people or fat people.
There is one time in my life that I distinctly remember being called fat in an unkind way. And I totally deserved it. I was in high school, and I was making some teasing comments about a classmate about his being short--when others were also engaged in teasing him about the same thing at the same time. He retorted with a comment about my weight. I _immediately_ understood that what I was saying to him was hurtful, and I could certainly not hold what he said about me against him. I watched what I said a lot more carefully after that.
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