posted
First of all, I didn't call Fredrick's part of the underword. Second, I don't see how lingerie can be tasteless, racy or otherwise, since it's only for use in private. That's really up to the individual, not the whole. Thirdly, you seem to have a problem with me considering runway fashion mainstream, and yet you treat Victoria secret in more or less the same way, just without the tag. And finally, there's not a single man made cultural activity that doesn't have "issues", that's not to say they havn't got the potential for acceptance, which runway modelling does.
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posted
Try not to get angry, cheiros, try to understand why people think your arguments are faulty. For instance, your last sentence about "potential for acceptance" could just as easily be applied to prostitution.
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posted
Sure, in the world we are living in, given the way most people view sex, I would probably discourage a son or daughter from becoming a prostitute. Not that I would be ashamed of them, but that their lives would be difficult. But isn't the point of this discussion to explore the ways we think that sex and prostitution should be viewed? And whether those views make sense?
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posted
Fugu, concerning your post before last (last on page 4), I already accounted for freedom of organisation in my beliefs. There are obviously exceptions when you bring swearing into it too (freedom of speech). Those freedoms exist to prevent a police state, but the law still remains neccessary after those freedoms are accounted for. Concerning the Latter-day Saints, you can't stop them from considering themselves a religion, but if the majority wishes, and can pass a law through congress, then they certainly should be able to make it no longer treated in the same way as other religions in America (e.g. tax exemption). But they won't pass that through Congress, and not just because there are Mormons in the US Parliament.
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quote:Originally posted by pH: Do you know ANYTHING about runway modeling? Do you know any runway models? Seriously.
-pH
Yes I do, actually. Do you expect that they've told me that it's a horrible profession? What does me knowing runway models have to do with anything?
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quote:Try not to get angry, cheiros, try to understand why people think your arguments are faulty. For instance, your last sentence about "potential for acceptance" could just as easily be applied to prostitution.
I'm not angry. I'm just trying to have a discussion here. I'm not too prideful to admit I'm wrong. You've just not managed to convince me yet. Sorry if you have a problem with that. This is the most involved I've ever got in a discussion here. Sorry if I'm not following the usual standards of practice, I'll try to improve on that, but right now I'm having trouble just keeping up with this thread (as well as a few others that come and go).
Regarding that point being just as easily applied to prostitution, from what I've learnt of context, the only way you could apply that to prostitution is by twisting my words into a completely different context, rending the entire idea redundant, which you seem more than happy to advocate. But then, I only learnt about context last year, so you will probably need to explain to me how applying it to prostitution would not be twisting my words.
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posted
I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong, I'm still up in the air on the issue of prostitution. I think your arguments are fatally flawed, though.
For instance, why are people free to organize and do certain things for religious purposes but not for sexual purposes? You haven't accounted for the differences at all, you've merely asserted there are differences. What makes a state that restricts voluntary religious practices (well, more than our own; some voluntary religious practices are already restricted, of course) a police state while one that restricts sexual practices isn't?
The US doesn't have a Parliament, btw. But your notion that the majority should be able to restrict just about anything is frightening, to say the least.
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posted
"But your notion that the majority should be able to restrict just about anything is frightening, to say the least."
Acually, when you bring the Bill of Rights in, that makes for a hell of a lot of things you can't restrict. Otherwise, what would be the point of the Bill of Rights?
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quote:Yes I do, actually. Do you expect that they've told me that it's a horrible profession? What does me knowing runway models have to do with anything?
Runway modeling is NOT as fun and glamorous as it's made out to be. Drug abuse and eating disorders run rampant. A runway model who is 5'10" absolutely could not weigh more than 120lbs in my home state, and that was pushing it. One model told me that she was considered "too curvy" for some clothes because her bra size was 32B. Until not too long ago, it was not uncommon to inject models with stimulants used to treat ADD in order to curb their appetites. I wouldn't be surprised if such practices were still used in many cases.
Runway models CAN have fun and CAN meet a lot of cool people and such, but there is also a huge potential for models to develop serious problems.
posted
"For instance, why are people free to organize and do certain things for religious purposes but not for sexual purposes?"
Your not seriously asking me, an Australian, why the Bill of Rights allows for religious freedom, but not, for instance, making love in public?
Of course, if you think my citizenship disqualifies me from this discussion, say so and I'll leave. But I'm here to debate, and in robuttle I expect education on the subjects my opponents are putting up, not just a simple "We're right. It's that way because it is." But there are educational points in these robuttles, and I am being educated, but it's not making me change my opinion, at least not so far.
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posted
I wasn't aware you cared much about the bill of rights, since you suggested the Congress should be able to delist a particular religion at (voted) whim, when that's something not allowed by the US bill of rights.
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quote:But isn't the point of this discussion to explore the ways we think that sex and prostitution should be viewed? And whether those views make sense?
I wasn't under the impression that's what the discussion was about-the question is whether or not prostitution should be legal or not. That question is tied to how people should view sex and prostitution, but moreso how they actually view the two things.
pH,
Why encourage them to go to college, instead of pursuing occupation in manual labor, if the pay and benefits are good and they're satisfied with it?
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posted
pH, my girlfriends sister's is a Runway model, she's not addicted to drugs, she doesn't have much of an appetite, she has a very small stomach so she doesn't need one. She weighs less so she needs less of thr nutrients that generally put on weight. Being underweight as far as BMI's go is not as much of a problem as a lot of people make it out to be. During my last years of highschool I was underweight and yet the fastest runner in my year.
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posted
"I wasn't aware you cared much about the bill of rights, since you suggested the Congress should be able to delist a particular religion at (voted) whim, when that's something not allowed by the US bill of rights."
Between those two posts I was educated. Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Well if it comes to "it is different because we think it is different", there isn't really much to discuss.
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quote:Why encourage them to go to college, instead of pursuing occupation in manual labor, if the pay and benefits are good and they're satisfied with it?
Parental ambition? Plenty of parents are disappointed that their kids decide to be artists instead of doctors. Plenty of parents want their kids to play sports all the time. I, personally, think a college education is very important for most people.
posted
cheiros, I'm not even sure there's a point to me continuing this discussion with you. For every example of a happy, well-adjusted, healthy model you give, I can probably give at least four to the contrary. In fact, if I cared to devote fifteen minutes of my life to such a discussion, I could probably come up with plenty of outside sources concerning drug use, eating disorders, and malnutrition in models.
I don't think of the concept as necessarily degrading in all circumstances. In practice many people involved will likely find it to be, but there are lots of people that do jobs that I would find degrading. I also think it is substantially less degrading in cirumstances where legal acceptance gives them more control of their lives (with the tradeoff that their will be more people dealing with the lesser feeling of degradation because of the improved conditions). If someone is in a situation where they feel their best option is a job they find degrading, I don't believe you help them by taking that job away, you help them by improving their other opportunities (as you mention) with drug treatment, education, etc until the job is no longer the best option.
I'd make sure my sister (daughter is fairly abstract at this point) wasn't in a situation where she felt this was her only option, but that only works because I exist and have the means to do so. If there wasn't such an alternative I don't think she's helped by removing that option or making the working conditions dangerous. I wouldn't suggest pursuing it as a career, but that's true of lots of occupations (as pH was saying), and that's largely shaped by the associated stigma. In a different society... dunno, it's hard to accurately project cirumstances that different. I suspect I wouldn't be a fan, if only because I can be an emotionally jealous person and it seems like a job with alot of entanglements (also eww, gross).
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posted
There is, though. Instead of thrusting the "it's not different" stance onto people by legalizing prostitution now, I think it'd be more effective to gradually change people's minds about sex and prostitution.
First and foremost, by lessening the suffering many prostitutes endure.
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posted
cheiros do ender's arguments may not seem to be the typical form of logic and debate to some people here. However, if I remember right he immigrated to Australia from Venezuela. Perhaps in the Latin American culture he grew up in what he is saying and how he is arguing it would resonate strongly with people there. I'm not suggesting any particular course of action, or excusing any comments. All I'm saying is that it might be useful to keep in mind that people here come from diverse backgrounds & cultures, and to insist that they conform to your notions may just alienate them and make things just a little more boring.
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Oh yes, pH, you're too smart for me. I'll just shut up now because you "could probably" do all that. I'm so sorry I ever thought to disagree with you. How foolish of me.
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quote:cheiros do ender's arguments may not seem to be the typical form of logic and debate to some people here. However, if I remember right he immigrated to Australia from Venezuela. Perhaps in the Latin American culture he grew up in what he is saying and how he is arguing it would resonate strongly with people there. I'm not suggesting any particular course of action, or excusing any comments. All I'm saying is that it might be useful to keep in mind that people here come from diverse backgrounds & cultures, and to insist that they conform to your notions may just alienate them and make things just a little more boring.
It's also a cheap excuse.
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posted
Fine. I'm writing a paper, but here's one article that mentions such things.
quote:Dr. Ruth Striegel-Moore, a professor of psychology at Wesleyan University, noted, "We've become so used to seeing extremely thin women, we've come to think this is what is beautiful." Fashion models weigh 25 percent less than the average American woman, who weighs 140 pounds and is five or more inches shorter than the typical model.
But while everyone is exposed to similar societal pressures to be thin, only a small percentage develop eating disorders. Those who succumb typically are prompted by extreme career pressures, as often happens to ballerinas, models, actresses and jockeys, or they have some underlying emotional and/or physical vulnerability.
quote: There is, though. Instead of thrusting the "it's not different" stance onto people by legalizing prostitution now, I think it'd be more effective to gradually change people's minds about sex and prostitution.
Great. I think we need to change minds as well. We are hardly likely to change legislation without changing minds. How are we going to do that? I hope that one way might be to have conversations about whether those views make sense and why.
quote: First and foremost, by lessening the suffering many prostitutes endure.
I think that one way of lessening their suffering might be to stop making them criminals.
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posted
Venezuela? I was born in Sydney, Australia. I now live in Perth, Australia. I don't know what excuse is being made. I don't see what I've done wrong. pH is the one shouting at me under the assumption that I know nothing about models, and then treating me as not worth talking to. Anyway, I'm reading the article she linked, so bear with me.
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quote:But your notion that the majority should be able to restrict just about anything is frightening, to say the least.
But doesn't the majority already wield that power, but maybe in a more indirect way? For example,
quote:since you suggested the Congress should be able to delist a particular religion at (voted) whim, when that's something not allowed by the US bill of rights.
A majority can influence how the bill of rights is interpreted, and thus, what defines a religion, which could then cause a specific religion to no longer be recognized. So in a sense, the majority does define the rules and laws.
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posted
And I think that the criminality is often not first on the list of their problems. Drug addiction and major self-esteem issues probably rank higher.
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posted
camus: no. There are significant checks on the majority in the US that lead to it not being able to assert control over the minority in frequent cases. These are often known as times where laws are thrown out of court, and happen regularly.
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posted
"While most of us will simply eat to excess from Thanksgiving to the New Year and then worry about shedding the holiday gains, those with eating disorders will either shun holiday fare (and most other food) entirely or gorge on it and then purge to avoid putting the extra calories on their waists and hips."
This is a sweeping generalisation and doesn't count for those who were thin in the first place. We all know gluttony is a bad thing, whether looked at from a religious perspective or not. Some models simply do not have appetites like "the average American woman, who weighs 140 pounds and is five or more inches shorter than the typical model." Why is that such problem to you?
Of course you do have a point. Of all the models neccessary for (and in) the fashion world, there are not enough naturally thin girls, and so certainly a large percentage of them are doing what is described in this article. But I don't really care. There are problems in every sect of every culture, and they are all improvable. I have a lot of faith in the runway fashion industry, and I stand by my point that culture dictates fashion, and fashion dictates attracticeness, and you seem to have nothing to say to the contrary. In fact, all it seems to be doing is backing up that argument.
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For my own sake, I hope society starts regarding them as unattractive. Rather improves my odds, since I don't share that particular standard Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: camus: no. There are significant checks on the majority in the US that lead to it not being able to assert control over the minority in frequent cases. These are often known as times where laws are thrown out of court, and happen regularly.
Hmmm, I was thinking of an even more indirect means of influence. The majority determines which political party controls congress as well as the presidential administration, which then can influence the political party lines of the supreme court, which then controls how the constitution is interpreted. Basic rights have been interpreted in many different ways during the last couple hundred years, all depending on the perspective of the majority.
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posted
No, those who don't look good in the fashion of times are less attractive. Who doesn't acknowlege that supermodels are considered by society to be the most attractive people in the world? Of course, what society thinks doesn't control what you or I think, but it still stands.
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posted
You won't acknowledge that the fashion industry rightfully dictates societies view of attractiveness, and yet you act as if you do. Of course, it's the people (and not an elite) who decide what fashions are attractive, but its the fashion industry that puts up ideas, and then passes on the best to the world anyway.
We're not mindless slaves who just believe what the attractive people want us to believe is attractive (especially these apparently impressionable teenage girls and the low esteemed women of the America you seem to think are being victimised by this system). We're the one's who decide what's attractive, that's how it works in democratic nations (not just in politics), and anything wrong with the fashion industry we've brought on ourselves.
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quote:Originally posted by cheiros do ender: We're the one's who decide what's attractive, that's how it works in democratic nations (not just in politics), and anything wrong with the fashion industry we've brought on ourselves.
As a female madly in love with her body (most of the time!) and who is considered "attractive", I wholeheartedly disagree. I have a number of beautiful (I mean it, I'm not being nice) friends who have serious body issues. What have "we" done to bring this on ourselves, cheiros? Please, enlighten me.
When you say "we", I think you mean men, because I do not identify with what you are saying at all.
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posted
Runway models are not picked because they are what the majority of people consider attractive. Runway models are picked to show off clothing. Clothing hangs better on thin, tall women without or with very small breasts. Designers pick these women so their designs are shown in the best possible way. If you look at picture from the runway, the women are usually totally expressionless. They don't smile, their eyes don't show emotion. The designers don't want you to be distracted by looking at the model's faces, you're supposed to be looking at the clothes.
Society does not consider them to be the most attractive people in the world. The majority of men I've met prefer women who look like women, with hips and breasts. Runway models are paid very well to maintain a figure that makes them a perfect clotheshanger.
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quote:When you say "we", I think you mean men, because I do not identify with what you are saying at all.
It's hardly that simple. The fashion trends are enforced at least as much by women as by men.
Ohh I am far too lazy to pick out the we's I was referring to. I'm a horrible Hatracker, but I just wanted to say NO! to cheiros.
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posted
I think we may be debating which is the cart and which is the horse at this point. I am saying that there is no reason that prostitution couldn't be viewed like any other profession. That there is no inherent reason that it has to be considered degrading or slavery.
I think that you are saying that we can't treat it like any other profession because most people view it as degrading or as slavery and until that changes, we should keep prostitution illegal because prostitutes are degraded and enslaved.
quote:Society does not consider them to be the most attractive people in the world. The majority of men I've met prefer women who look like women, with hips and breasts. Runway models are paid very well to maintain a figure that makes them a perfect clotheshanger.
I don't think this gets communicated effectively to a lot of girls. Good lord, look at the pro-ana culture - statement enough of just how ridiculously thin the ideal is, regardless of what men actually find most attractive.
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posted
I think girls just put on a huge show for eachother and the guys don't really matter because honestly, it doesn't take a lot to get most guys going.
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quote:Originally posted by jennabean: I think girls just put on a huge show for eachother and the guys don't really matter because honestly, it doesn't take a lot to get most guys going.
I'm reminded of that South Park. What was it they called Bebe's boobs? "Ah-tah?"
posted
Porter, "pro-ana culture" is a movement that is pro-anorexia (ana) and thinks it is a good and useful thing for young women (and men, presumably, although I've never heard of men being involved in it) to be a part of.
kmbboots, while I personally think that prostitution is in and of itself degrading for the people involved, your description is a substantial part of what I'm trying to say, yes.
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Parental ambition? Plenty of parents are disappointed that their kids decide to be artists instead of doctors. Plenty of parents want their kids to play sports all the time. I, personally, think a college education is very important for most people.![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I was born in Sydney, Australia. I now live in Perth, Australia. I don't know what excuse is being made. I don't see what I've done wrong. pH is the one shouting at me under the assumption that I know nothing about models, and then treating me as not worth talking to. Anyway, I'm reading the article she linked, so bear with me.
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