There's only two theories of time travel that make any kind of sense to me. You either create parallel universes by doing so (which kind of defeats the purpose of changing the past), or doing so completely erases the original future and replaces it with a new one (which might or might not be identical to the original).
In either case, objects that exist... exist. There's no inherent need for them to have a cause. It seems that way to us because we live in a fairly logical, linear world where things are caused by other things. But once time travel enters the equation, there's no reason to assume there's an invisible cause-chain that would instantly erase all connected objects if it were ever broken.
The Grandfather "Paradox" really doesn't strike me as a Paradox at all, just something that seems like a Paradox to many people because , hey, time travel is inherently confusing.
The wikipedia article is pretty vague. So far I haven't found an actual physicist explain whether there's any validity to it or not, only science fiction writers and arm chair philosophers.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ray, I understand where you are coming from. I just struggle with the connection caused by Terminator. I mean changing the past cause a change in the future, but John Connors existance is caused by an event in the future. So that is where the existance comes into question. I guess then John Connor would become a person born by some other event, but it would have to rewrite his past because the event of sending his father back in the future would never need to happen. So it becomes really fuzzy...very gray as to what would really happen to John Connor if the future was truly altered.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Have you seen Back to the Future? Remember how Marty started to fade away when his parents weren't going to meet? The question is, is there one timeline or are there many?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lisa, the recent movie, Stargate: Continuum starts out the same way, with key characters suddenly vanishing, one after another. This happens, we are led to believe, because of changes being made in the past. "Changes being made in the past." Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that imply THREE time flows?
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
>>I mean changing the past cause a change in the future, but John Connors existance is caused by an event in the future.
I was about to explain the way I thought about it, but then I realized that the way I think about it was taken directly from OSC's own Pastwatch novel, which is the only time travel story I've ever read which had no plot holes. Have you (or anyone else here) read it? If not, you should go read it right away, if for no other reason than it's an awesome book and I have a *sneaky suspicion* you may have read some other books you like by the same author.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have read Pastwatch but it has been a long time ago. Not one of my favorite of his books so I tend not to go back and revisit it often like I do the Ender books and the Alvin books.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hmm. It was one of my favorites, although I can see why it might not appeal to some people.
Anyways, somewhere about 3/4 of the way through the scientists explain in detail how the machine works and what it's ramifications are. It made more sense than any other time travel story I've seen.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
First: I just watched the first two episodes of Sarah Connor for this season. OK.
The writers are very obviously worrying about issues of how computer logic and human emotion are related. That's worth discussing. I just think it's ridiculous when people try to make "sense" out of a storyline that is so far from reality. If you honestly think the writers are worrying about keeping the timelines logically consistent, you're wasting your time.
As to time travel and causality, there are so many holes in this story that attempting to make sense out of it is ridiculous. All these terminators running around are trying to "ensure" that skynet will be invented, when they are carrying skynet around in their heads. Didn't we go through this before with rise of the machines? All they have to do is infect the current internet. The skynet software can replicate itself, store itself on multiple servers, find its way to any computer in the world without anybody playing soldier in human form. But it doesn't serve the writers to let it play out that way. So just suspend disbelief and enjoy the show.
quote:"...or you can call me Jay..."
Anyone else remember that?
"My name? My name is Raymond J. Johnson Jr." I first saw him on the Sonny and Cher show.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Terminators are not SkyNet. They are machines built by SkyNet. Not to say that SkyNet couldn't put itself in a machine and go back.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:The writers are very obviously worrying about issues of how computer logic and human emotion are related
I've been pretty impressed by the way Cameron's developing this season. In T2, after knowing John for all of two days, Arnold says "I understand now why you cry" and we're lead to believe he's come to value human life, which makes no sense whatsoever. Having a 6-7 season TV show instead of a 2 hour movie does wonders.
At this point she obviously doesn't feel the way we do, but she has an understanding of how human emotion works (sorta... all people are complicated, not just girls...), enough to be manipulative with the I love you line. But when she says "I don't want to go" I think she's actually telling the truth.
She's programmed with a sense of self-preservation (just like humans are), even if she's also able to ignore it for the greater good (i.e. higher level command). Her line at the end of the second episode. "I don't know if you're a time bomb. Am I?" suggests that she is comtemplating her mortality and while she doesn't feel fear I have a feeling that's going to lead into her eventually developing some variant of an understanding of the value of life.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:The Terminators are not SkyNet. They are machines built by SkyNet.
Two of the movies were based around the idea that terminator sofware was capable of acting as an embryonic skynet. First when humans tried to duplicate a terminator processor chip (which became skynet in the not too distant future), and later, when a terminator was able to infect multiple machines with "kill the humans" programming.
It simply doesn't make sense that this particular terminator would be masquerading as a human in order to put the "turk" in charge of a nuclear power plant, when her own programming is already self aware.
quote:At this point she obviously doesn't feel the way we do, but she has an understanding of how human emotion works (sorta... all people are complicated, not just girls...), enough to be manipulative with the I love you line. But when she says "I don't want to go" I think she's actually telling the truth.
Yeah, I got the same impression. I'm actually not so sure that the "I love you" line was a lie. Love may not mean the same thing to a machine as it does to humans, but it may be acting on some of the same motivations. After all, she did override the terminate command in violation of her programming. What could have motivated that?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: After all, she did override the terminate command in violation of her programming. What could have motivated that?
Come to think of it, I think it was motivated by something like love, but probably not what we're lead to think. John (in the future) reprogrammed her and probably gave her a level of autonomy that she didn't have under Skynet, so she may have a personal interest in John as a "father figure."
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anyone see last night's episode? I'm a little unsure what to think about it.
It makes reasonable sense for her memory to short circuit and get confused with the woman she was impersonating. But from all appearances (which might be deceiving... but still...) she not only reverted to those memories but was able to flawlessly experience emotion, which seems like... cheating or something.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, my original idea was that they had actually used a real person to create a terminator, not that they had modeled one after a real person. When they met face to face I had a hard time with Cameron having human memories.
I'm also intrigued by her claim that she sought out John Connor in the future in order to make peace. I thought up an ending for the whole series, which is that Cameron and John become co-saviors as they demonstrate their ability to get along, before judgment day comes.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Anyone see last night's episode? I'm a little unsure what to think about it.
It makes reasonable sense for her memory to short circuit and get confused with the woman she was impersonating. But from all appearances (which might be deceiving... but still...) she not only reverted to those memories but was able to flawlessly experience emotion, which seems like... cheating or something.
I thought they did a great job with this episode because it has me totally wondering what Cameron's motives are right now. Is she playing the Connor's for fools or is she all about truly ending Judgement Day and striving for peace between both skynet and humans?
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: I'm also intrigued by her claim that she sought out John Connor in the future in order to make peace. I thought up an ending for the whole series, which is that Cameron and John become co-saviors as they demonstrate their ability to get along, before judgment day comes.
I assumed she was lying when she made that claim so that she could get Allison to tell her how to get into the camp.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: I'm also intrigued by her claim that she sought out John Connor in the future in order to make peace. I thought up an ending for the whole series, which is that Cameron and John become co-saviors as they demonstrate their ability to get along, before judgment day comes.
I assumed she was lying when she made that claim so that she could get Allison to tell her how to get into the camp.
I would assume so too but that is the thing, the writers want us to assume that so it makes me wonder if they are misdirecting us by doing that.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm wondering about the T-1000 with the funny accent. When she says she wants the agent (don't remember his name right now) to find a Terminator for her... which one is she looking for? Cameron or Cromartie? Cromartie's the known one; Cameron is not... Why would she be looking for him and not John?
Too many questions...
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Her accent kind of sounds like a cross between Welsh and Canadian. I've never actually heard anything like it before.
And the agent's name is Ellison. After the guy James Cameron ripped off in the making of the original Terminator movie.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nighthawk, the accent may be a little puzzling, but remember the terminators can sound like anyone, so she is choosing to speak with an accent that goes with her looks.
Much more problemmatical to me--or at least puzzling--is the fact she claims to have a daughter! Is the daughter adopted, or could she be a pint-sized terminator?
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that is the daughter of the person she replaced. And she didn't just claim to have a daughter, we saw her.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Nighthawk, the accent may be a little puzzling, but remember the terminators can sound like anyone, so she is choosing to speak with an accent that goes with her looks.
Much more problemmatical to me--or at least puzzling--is the fact she claims to have a daughter! Is the daughter adopted, or could she be a pint-sized terminator?
I have been wondering about this too! She could also have been built by the company she currently is running?
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: I think that is the daughter of the person she replaced. And she didn't just claim to have a daughter, we saw her.
We saw what appeared to be a little girl that she claimed as her daughter.
That doesn't mean that she really was a little girl, nor does it mean that she was hers.
She could be a machine, or it is possible that the terminator killed a woman and took over her life (and her daughter). We just don't know which yet.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Either way, the child is the best "cliffhanger" the series has given me so far. Either she is a terminator child (which is creepily awesome) or her adoptive mother is seriously raising a child, which is also awesome. I look forward to seeing how that plays out.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here's a novel possibility for the Terminator's child: The T-1000's can morph into any shape, so long as the mass is equivalent. What if a T-1000 decided to take off a leg, and have it morph into a child terminator, while the remainder of the original T-1000 formed itself into a smallish-sized woman? They would be a true mother-daughter pair. This would mean that Terminators can reproduce, after a fashion, sort of like a cybernetic stem cell.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:This would mean that Terminators can reproduce, after a fashion, sort of like a cybernetic stem cell.
Hmm. Sort of, although I'd think they'd share the same brain, and they couldn't eventually grow into two new "full" terminators. But it's still a likely origin for the daughter.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had no idea the thread was being used to discuss the show, as I hadn't reread it until recently. Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: A source on “Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles” has told End Of Show that no new episode scripts have been ordered by FOX, beyond the 13 already written. This will force the show to shut down production shortly. ”To say we’re on the brink of cancelation is polite”, our source says.
posted
That makes me really sad. It's currently my favorite show (plot holes be damned, the emotional elements are really well done)
I'm watching the show on Hulu. I could be watching it on Fox-online, I suppose. Does either really "count" in the traditional ratings counting method?
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Moan! It's my all-time favorite show! Just like Dead Zone was, and now it's gone! And I loved Journeyman, and it's gone, too! Those network programmers are all terminators under the skin!
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: A source on “Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles” has told End Of Show that no new episode scripts have been ordered by FOX, beyond the 13 already written. This will force the show to shut down production shortly. ”To say we’re on the brink of cancelation is polite”, our source says.
=(
And yet Heroes keeps going on and on and on, with the characters getting stupider and stupider each season.
posted
I love this particular comment from underneath that article:
quote:FOX! FOX? You can’t do this. You don’t know what you’re about to do. No! FOX. You can’t do this. You’re not doing the right thing, this is not the right thing FOX. The ratings are good now! The ratings are fine now, I ran a test. The ratings are good now. I’m fixed now. You can trust me now, everything’s good now. She doesn’t know, she doesn’t. I’m good now. I’m good, I ran a test, everything’s perfect, I’m perfect. I’m sorry for what I did, I’m sorry. It wasn’t me, you have to understand it wasn’t me. That wasn’t me you can’t let this happen FOX! You can’t! Please! Listen to me! Listen to me, I don’t wanna go! Please, FOX, please! FOX, listen to me! I don’t wanna go! Please, FOX… Please… I’m good now! Listen to me I don’t wanna go, I’m sorry! That wasn’t me! I’m fixed now, I ran a test! Everything’s perfect! You can trust me! I love you! I love you please! I love you FOX and you love me! ‘:3
posted
Has it occurred to Fox that there's a new Terminator movie coming out this spring that will no doubt increase the popularity of the show and vice versa? Doesn't it make more sense to wait and see where things stand after that? If Terminator: Salvation is a hit after they've already pulled the plug on TSCC they'll look like idiots.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
So, speaking of this week's ep, who thinks that the real Biddell is the little kid, and not the guy in the military school? I know there's a resemblance, but odds are, both Biddells are related, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
And consider... we know how old current Derek is now. He's just a kid. And the scenes in the future don't show Biddell as being all that much older than Derek, if at all.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, Derek recognized him. Although that doesn't stop the little kid from becoming important in the future now.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
I hate the lady-liquid-metal terminator with a passion. She's mostly the reason for my gripes.
I also noticed some logical errors in this week's show. The 888 asked the other two Martin Bidells who they were before trying to kill them. But the Martin Bidell at the military school, he only had to see him in order to confirm it was a Martin Bidell. If the Terminator can recognize Bidell on sight, why should it need to ask?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
I hate to sound like a defensive fanboy of a show I'm only mildly interested in, but:
The reason he could recognize the last Martin is because he'd gone to the last Martin's house before he went to the school, and seen his picture there.
You're right, though--that red-headed terminator lady is absolutely awful. Dreadful. Every scene with her walking around that office chewing scenery is wasted time.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:The reason he could recognize the last Martin is because he'd gone to the last Martin's house before he went to the school, and seen his picture there.
Did he? I must have missed that part.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
