posted
And just because the Amazons were defeated does not mean that they were any less brave - or do you define bravery by winning, too?
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
You know, up til the last page or so of this thread, I would've perhaps argued against the lumping in of KoM with BC and JH, but clearly, I would've been mistaken. KoM, the whole complaint lodged in the beginning of this thread is that certain posters tend to disregard the points made by other posters, ignoring them or dismissing them without actually paying attention to them, and you seem to be doing that now. Try to take a step back from your argument and read what everyone else has to say: that brave men do not, in fact, outnumber brave women in history--or that, at the very least, there's very little proof for the point you're making.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I hate to say it, because it makes me sound like a whiny troll, but it seems that you people are determined to misunderstand me. I am sorry to make such an accusation, but I have tried my best to be clear, and I really cannot seem to get through to you.
Let me state one more time what I am trying to say, and then go to bed :
Men have, throughout history, had more opportunities to demonstrate physical courage than women.
That's it. I am not drawing moral lessons; I am not saying men are braver than women. I am making an extremely limited statement of what I believe to be historical fact. If you choose to be offended, take a deep breath and remember that old quote, 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much.'
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
The Yoruba royal guard in the 19th century in modern Niger and Nigeria were "Amazons". They were insanely-capable warrior-women (also probably slaves, but that's beside the point). They were excellent with the scimitar and brutally accurate shots with Long Dane muskets. They were equipped with the best of the best the Yoruba states could offer.
Note that that's completely tangential to the argument I mostly-skimmed. I just like that particular bit of history.
Less tangential,
quote: "Can a man be brave even if he's afraid?" "That is the only time he can be brave."
Bran and Eddard Stark from A Game of Thrones and in context, "man" can be interpreted as people in general. It wasn't making a statement about gender, but rather a statement about courage.
EDIT: I really don't think KoM is being a troll. Then, by my own admission, I wasn't reading the thread very carefully. Indeed, he was only trying to state that many men have fought and died, presenting great courage all the way. And, by the numbers, they outnumber women in a similar circumstance.
At the same time, I don't think he was cutting down notable warrior-women in history, instead pointing them out as exceptions--which they were. At the same time I didn't read any hostility toward labeling women as brave in other ways. I may be reading KoM wrong, though.
posted
Megan, while I certainly disagree with many of the other posters here, I do not believe I have completely ignored their points; I certainly have done my best to respond to their posts. I may have missed a few from the sheer mass of people arguing with me; point them out and I'll try to rectify that - tomorrow, I'm off to bed now.
Further, I do not believe I have been rude. Sharp and abrasive, which I believe was justified in order to get people to respond to what I was saying and not what they were apparently hearing. But not rude. I have called no names, insulted no intelligences, accused no one of a lack of conviction. I do not think it fair to accuse me of behaving as badly as JH and BC, and I would appreciate it if you retracted that.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Can I please get it on record that I understand women can be brave? I believe this is the fourth time I state this. But you are DAMN WELL OUTNUMBERED by all the brave men through history.
Here's my question: even if this is true, why do you care?
I certainly don't. I'm just curious about why you do.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
That's exactly what I've been wondering. I've been having the damnedest time trying to figure out where this whole argument came from or where it might be going. I just can't figure out why it's so important to KoM to make this particular point.
posted
I am studying Anglais, History and Politics.
English is my most "redundant" subject; I have actually been told not to try to be original. History and Politics are slightly more applicable. At least, I try and write on the most applicable-to-real-life topics.
The point is though, that many topics that are discussed and argued are completely irrelevent. Especially ones where you're writing about analogies in a book that the author specifically said were not there.
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Unless your point was that your program is unfulfilling? I which case I've got your back. Preach it, sister suffragette.
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quote:The point is though, that many topics that are discussed and argued are completely irrelevent.
Sounds like a point to me.
I was just smiling 'cause I'm in kind of a good mood, though. Was out for some drinks with Dunc and Chris, pulled an Eric and picked up the entire tab. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
It just feels like an essay where the third paragraph suddenly starts arguing a point not presented in the thesis statement
I'm out.
Of what?
I'm out. Of this.
See, while you're out having drinks with your friends I'm still not done finals. Although, I did get to say a number of my profs a little schnockered over the weekend at the end of term chem party. Tong is a funny, funny man.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: The point is though, that many topics that are discussed and argued are completely irrelevent. Especially ones where you're writing about analogies in a book that the author specifically said were not there.
That's why I avoid English classes. I spend a lot of time in them debating that the author couldn't have possibly included the depth of material covered.
For isntance, H.G. Wells was a good author, but face it, he wrote pulp Scifi. We got into the nature animals and humanity and how it related to misogyny in Frankenstein... or something like that. It was absurd. I'll stick to African History, thanks. Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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Oh man. Chris worked at Pearson this summer, doing Korean Air flights. So very many funny stories. And there was a midget. Much hilarity.
I'm glad Dunc's back. Things will be much more fun around here.
And who knows, maybe we'll even manage to derail this thread by talking about things no one else can make head or tail of?
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
It's what we do best. I think of all the people on the board we've got the most history. Can anyone else top two decades? Nope? Alright then.
I can only imagine the antics that DJ Nick got up to. How'd the band do, anyway? Remember I said that they'd get eaten alive? I'm morbidly curious to find out if I was right.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
No, there are whole families who post here, I'd say they win that particular contest.
I have no idea about the band, really. They're still together, but I don't know how they did while they were in Toronto. Chris seems to have a lot less time now that he's going to school, working, AND doing the band thing.
On the other hand he finds time to date married women and midgets. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
*whimpers* I'm getting so sick of men v women arguments and debates. How come people can't just say human and be done with it? Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I don't agree with KoM, but he most definatly isn't a troll. He has manners, even though he sometimes decides not to use them for a bit, but he has contributed to this forum.
I play online DnD with him, and he is OK, not like JH/BC, who I STILL think are one and the same. They don't EVER care about other peoples opinions or feelings, and KoM is far smarter than either one of them (if in fact they are not one and the same).
Don't get a big head because I said that KoM ...my 5 year old neice is brighter and more polite than they are too.
Also, I agree...men have had more oppertunities to SHOW that sort of bravery. Regardless of how clear you THOUGHT you were being I would say by the number of people who have commented that what you were saying and what it sounded like you were saying were two different things....
posted
KoM, responding to posts by repeating what you've said earlier isn't exactly responding. I will say this, though: most of the time, I find you to be far more reasonable in your stances and your defence of them than the other two posters in question.
It was this quote, however, that reminds me very much of their rhetoric:
quote: DARN WELL OUTNUMBERED by all the brave men through history.
I think the reason people are responding so strongly to it is the basic idea that women are not as brave as men. You claim that's not what you say, but that's exactly what that quote says, with none of the qualification (of physical bravery) that you mentioned in your response to me. I think the people replying to your posts have managed to prove through example that you are wrong both on the idea that the majority of brave people in the past have been men and on your more basic idea of courage. I also think you acknowledge the examples hardly all, or dismissively at best. Not only that, but your basic dismissal of childbirth as an act of courage, I imagine, rubbed a lot of people the wrong way (me not the least--I'm terrified of childbirth, and I think it must take an enormous amount of courage to go through it).
I would not call you a troll, and I don't think you're quite in the same arena as JH and BC, but your posts in this thread are more representative of the problems that were originally pointed out in the first post of the thread. However, you have a point: you have not been as rude as they have been, and for implying that, I apologize. I stand by my description of the problems with your posts, though.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I can't believe I just read this whole thread.
KoM I would guess that way back in the day if your village was getting attacked you had plenty of opportunity as a man, woman, or child to show physical bravery. And the simpler option probably was to go quietly into the dark night. But, there are probably many many examples of people fighting to protect their homes. And if your men are away at war who do you think is going to do it?
But really the problem is we can't say can we? Because we're not there and most of human history is quite poorly documented. So this thread tangent can never die.
*slowly backs away from this thread*
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I'm pretty sure that KoM would also agree that we have many many more items of documentation that many many many more men have lied, cheated, stole, murdered, committed acts of torture, and -- probably more to the point -- betrayed public trust and acted dishonorably. . . Including many many many more displays of physical cowardice. . . Why? They were predominantly the ones in the position to have acts of cowardice and the like both noted and recorded. *shrug
Means nothing more or less than this is what we have record of.
[ December 20, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Generalizing with gender will always get you in trouble. In fact generalizing always gets you into trouble. (Note: This is the sentance the breaks, and proves the rule.)
Some people are brave, others are not. Some people are brave where others are not.
Moral of the story: Men are stupid oafs that can't care for children, and women can't do anything but.
posted
As promised, my responses. About that 'darn' : I was possibly getting just a touch carried away by the heat of the argument. But I am also annoyed by the apparent knee-jerk reaction displayed : If I say 'Men are good at X', instantly three other members will offer examples of women in history who were also good at X. Fine, I'm not saying women can't be soldiers, statesmen, whatever. I'm saying there have been more men.
As for dismissing others' arguments, I don't think I did. What I did do was state that the examples offered were all valid, but extremely badly outnumbered. I stand by that. Even if you assume that in the reaches of un-recorded history there are many instances of women rising in arms, the mass mobilisations of the past few centuries will easily swamp them.
King of Women, I do not think you are being particularly funny. How much would you chortle if I stated my intent to circumcise all women in a two-mile radius?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I'm pretty sure that KoM would also agree that we have many many more items of documentation that many many many more men have lied, cheated, stole, murdered, committed acts of torture, and -- probably more to the point -- betrayed public trust and acted dishonorably more often.
Including many many many more displays of physical cowardice.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote: But I am also annoyed by the apparent knee-jerk reaction displayed
Your characterization of the reactions as "knee-jerk" may have colored your perception of what they are saying.
Most of the time, this was about differing definitions of bravery and the difference between exhibiting bravery in particular circumstances and being brave.
quote: Unless your point was that your program is unfulfilling? I which case I've got your back. Preach it, sister suffragette.
BtL, The Teshster was not really making a point about anything, except to answer the Twinkster's question, which was "what are you studying that makes you write redundant essays?" or words to that effect.
I am not unfulfilled by my program. It never occured to me, actually. All the fulfilling I need, I get at Hatrack or I go find it someplace else. Classes are secondary and have always been. I just go to University to be able to function more successfully at Hatrack .
EDIT:
quote: It just feels like an essay where the third paragraph suddenly starts arguing a point not presented in the thesis statement
Just to confuse you, BtL. Nothing like a random point.
It was actually the point referring to an earlier post of mine to which Twinky's question was referring. So although the point seemed kind of random of that post it's actually the end of a complete entity that encompasses mine, Twinky's and my second post (the one that confused you), and therefore was not actually all over the place.
Is that clear ?
Also: The point I was making was that although it is completely and totally irrelevent to argue that men have been more active in military pursuits in the past, it is valid point, as arguments go.
quote: I can't believe I just read this whole thread
I'm glad I didn't. Sheesh! Half way through I felt like I was at a group therapy session.
KoM Hey for what it's worth I think you're alright. I don't read too much of the other two to form a real opinion. There have been a few or more of you're posts I liked. Other times I just treat them as the blibber-blah of the threads that I don't respond to out of disintrest .
edited to add: Sorry Ic, but it was turning that way.
[ December 20, 2004, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Yeah, really not necessary, but I wanted to point out to the few people that care that Baldar seemed to me to have a need to see himself as honorable, which is a very different thing from actually being honorable. From what I've seen, this distinction, though very important, is often not well understood.
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