quote:Originally posted by katharina: Nazi as a descriptive term and not a member of the actual Nazi party can be capitalized or not: both are correct.
quote:"Also, your understanding of original sin is fundamentally flawed, but that's neither here nor there." I have just taken a year's worth of college-level theology, but this is hardly the time or the place to discuss the differences between the Augustinian-Calvinist, the Pelagian, the semi-Pelagian and the Lutheran ideas of sin and salvation.
Immediate appeal to authority - not very persuasive.
The guilt you are referring to is contemporary guilt - guilt allegedly associated with actions we on Hatrack have taken.
The presence of contemporary guilt (and the actions which create the state of guilt) are not proof of original sin. In fact, original sin is not based on anything we do, whether one subscribes to the inherited guilt theory or not.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pel, once more before I go and catch a drink with El JT de Spang. People here have given you the benefit of the doubt; they have offered helpful suggestions. None of this seems to be making any impact on you.
If you really want to be part of this community, ask yourself, really ask yourself, why you used this sentence:
quote:I am not an Augustian Christian, but there seems enough guilt here to justify the proposition of original sin.
You pepper your writing with allusions that you have to stretch to make relevent. It doesn't help your point. All it does is show off that you have heard of Augustus. If that is what you are trying to do, stop it. If you are doing it unintentionally, stop it. It doesn't make you sound smarter. Nobody is impressed.
I get that you were probably the smartest kid you knew. So were we all.Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
oh pelegius, it's not that you write poorly or in a largely confusing and distancing manner. It's just that the rest of us are but poor peasants scared and intimidated by such lofty and learned figures such as yourself. /end sarcasm
"I must point out that I have never said anything about any other user which even begins to approach the level of disdain heaped routinely on me, and yet it is I who am accused of “sneering at my readers.” If I am guilty of this offense, which would be great indeed, how much more guilty are the rest?"
There is a night-and-day difference between sneering, what you typically do with your overly-done-up prose, and straightforward criticism. Just as there is a difference between a snooty aristocrat making off-hand comments about someone's dress and a regular joe explaining that those particular combat boots don't go that well with the frilly sun-dress, and do little to accentuate beauty.
None of us who are criticising you are hiding it, we are more than forthright with exactly what we are doing, and as such there is little-to-no guilt, though apparently you think we should feel guilty.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
"A year, huh? College level theology classes at the ripe age of 15-16?
Whatever." Yes, this is so and shall remain so no matter how vigorously you deny it or wish that it were not. My professor studied with Charles E. Curran, and yet I am to be assumed as ignorant for no other reason than that you dislike me. There are many whom I dislike but whose education and intelligence, even, on occasion, genius, I acknowledge. I have never asked to "be worshiped." I have asked, and shall continue to ask, or rather, demand, the respect due to a human being. I accord a respect to all humanity, regardless of age, ethnicity, religion etc. that has seldom been accorded me. Yes, I am young and yes, I have been known to disagree with many older than I and some perhaps wiser than I, but I have never treated another human being, on this forum or elsewhere, in the same manner in which I am being treated.
The greatness of humanity rests upon the ability of humanity to recognize its own genius, which can only be achieved by recognizing the dignity of all humans. This, and nothing more, has been message which I have tried to pass own and which I still strive to pass on.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I have never treated another human being, on this forum or elsewhere, in the same manner in which I am being treated.
You justed treated me this way. I posted a response to an allusion. You disagreed and the only support provided was your one year of theology. The clear implication: I am right and you are wrong because I took this class.
That's no different than someone saying, "You are wrong and I am right because I am twice your age." Especially considering that you have no idea what theology I've studied in my day.
If you'd like to share something from your class, that's one thing. But to simply assert your superiority on the subject is precisely what you have accused others of doing.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
" In fact, original sin is not based on anything we do, whether one subscribes to the inherited guilt theory or not." Original sin is based on the theory that, as we are born into Adam's sin, we cannot but sin like him. It is an essentially anti-free will argument, as opposed to the Pelagian and semi-Pelagian arguments which are rooted in free will. Augustine, Erasmus and Calvin allowed for some measure of limited free will while Luther allowed for none.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Original sin is based on the theory that, as we are born into Adam's sin, we cannot but sin like him.
Yes.
quote:It is an essentially anti-free will argument
No, it is not. In fact, it rather depends on free will as a necessary premise. You are merely repeating the charges Pelegius aimed at the doctrine.
Further, none of what you listed here begins to explain why this is appropriate. Pelegius never denied that people sin. Therefore, the existence of current sin (which is what you referred to with "enough guilt here") does nothing to prove one side of the discussion or the other.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
kmbboots, can you give me the address of the bar where you and El JT de Spang are? I'm thinking of stopping over there too =p
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dagonee, you did not disagree per se, you said I was wrong without saying why I was wrong. The latter is disagreeing, the former is pure criticism, although I was probably still unfair to you. It is just that I grow increasingly distressed with my critics, who, no longer content to criticize my ideas or even the style in which they are presented, feel obliged to begin a ceaseless stream of ad hominem attacks.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Pelegius never denied that people sin." Absolutley. He did, however, deny that people were inherently pre-programed to sin, as it were, claiming that they were equaly likely to do good and evil. That is the basis against which I wrote, although it may well be flawed (I would argue that none know living know exactly what Pelagius meant, myself least of all.)
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pelegius, I'm going to ask you what you think is causing so many people to grow terribly frustrated with you.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
*reminisces* I remember when other people posted "Why Is No One Listening to Me" threads. The poignant ones were those which were sincere; they were a plaintive cry of How come no wants to play with me? I smell nice, and I'm so smart.
*looks into crowd* Yes, I see you squirming. I am talking about yours.
Anyway, I don't think this thread is one of them. This is I am going to start thread after thread about MEEEE. It's all about MEEEEEEEEEE!! Talk about MEEEEE!!Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:"Pelegius never denied that people sin." Absolutley. He did, however, deny that people were inherently pre-programed to sin, as it were, claiming that they were equaly likely to do good and evil. That is the basis against which I wrote, although it may well be flawed (I would argue that none know living know exactly what Pelagius meant, myself least of all.)
No, I think that that's as accurate as a one line summary of his thoughts on this issue can really be. But, again, the presence of sin now does not provide evidence to support either Augustine or Pelegius's view. That's my point.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
kmboots, I have never claimed to be Hatrack's resident expert on theology and I have no doubt that many other posters are better informed than I. I have, however, claimed to understand some basic theological principles, a claim which I am now defending.
Samprimary, I think that there are many causes, the two most major being a fear of “the other” and being viewed as an impudent upstart.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hatrack is not a formal writing society, and your posts, Pel, need not be exerpts from a MLA essay. If you want fit in more, loosen up. If you don't, then continue your strait-jacketed prose, and whine about it repeatedly.
Pel, you write so stiffly your prose creaks and thumps painfully across the monitors of your beloved Hatrack. Your run-on sentences and iterative comma splices are just sad, because you could develop some skill in writing if you weren't so insistant about demonstrating your erudition through loooong sentence structures. The most important part of writing is consideration of your target audience. Us, in this case, and we are not amused.
One last example: "rôles"? Are you friggin' serious? The circumflex is not needed in English, which is the language you're writing in. I quote google (hardly the authority on English, yet it draws from many dictionaries):"No definitions of rôles were found in English." The ONLY reason you included that circumflex was to appear learned. You failed, and instead looked pompous.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
His writing is definitely not excerpted from MLA essays. They tend to have focus, coherence, and strong arguments.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Morbo, that's "learnčd." Philistine.
I thought of that at the last minute, but was afraid of appearing pompous. A fear you overcame long ago, Dag. Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Samprimary, I think that there are many causes, the two most major being a fear of “the other” and being viewed as an impudent upstart.
Pel, the main reason most of us come the Hatrack is to find "the other" -- to be exposed to viewpoints we don't encounter often enough in our day to day lives. At its best, this forum is a delightful conglomeration of opinions and thoughts from around the globe. And impudent upstarts are welcomed, they keep things interesting. Try again.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
So you ARE saying people criticized your ideas/style first? Since I haven't seen much change or humility from you, I can only assume you turned a deaf ear to it, whether by outright dismissal, or simply ignoring it. So you are saying that the bulk of your critics are correct when they say you are having a one-way conversation here; you speak, we listen.
Or to put in a way you may find more suitable: You cast pearls before swine, and just like those multitudes of monkeys furiously punching, should the hogs happen to make a noise approximating language, it is to be dismissed as a lucky break. Or, if you prefer to keep with the zoological metaphors, that every dog, in fact, has its 24-hour period.
posted
"I eschew pomposity and thus experience no phobic tendencies, pomposity-wise." A pleonasmic anti-tautology. Touche.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: I must point out that I have never said anything about any other user which even begins to approach the level of disdain
I think you need to understand the difference between constructive criticism and disdain.
quote: I have asked, and shall continue to ask, or rather, demand, the respect due to a human being.
Constructive criticism, which you have abundantly received, is one of the higher forms of respect.
I too bow out. It is not worth it to me. You can't force maturity. The good advice has been written. Pel must be (and is) free to discover that on his own.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: and yet I am to be assumed as ignorant for no other reason than that you dislike me. There are many whom I dislike but whose education and intelligence, even, on occasion, genius, I acknowledge. I have never asked to "be worshiped." I have asked, and shall continue to ask, or rather, demand, the respect due to a human being. I accord a respect to all humanity, regardless of age, ethnicity, religion etc. that has seldom been accorded me.
Are you on drugs boy?
We treat you like you're ignorant because YOU SOUND IGNORANT MOST OF THE TIME!!!!!! GAHH!!!!!!
You couldn't give an ounce of respect or devote one SECOND of your time to contributing to a single discussion about anyone else here, and we've all given you something like 5 threads that were ALL ABOUT YOU. You pompous little napoleon complex. Dear God. I am finished with you.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pel, I don't assume you are ignorant, nor do I dislike you. From your Hatrack/wikipedia profile, you seem like a great kid that I might like to get to know. You just have toweringly pompous writing style that begs to be criticised and parodied, and a lack of humility.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I ask you, the royal "you," if I could have asked for a better post then Orincoro's entry below my response?
I don't think so! Of course being accused of not respecting or liking someone after spending time to read, evaluate, and criticize their work would make me angry too.
Having someone have so little respect as to respond in kind to my attempts at dialogue could certainly repeatedly press my agitation button if I didn't walk away.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Samprimary, I think that there are many causes, the two most major being a fear of “the other” and being viewed as an impudent upstart.
The "fear of the other" part is completely incorrect, and borders on persecution complex.
Really, there's two major parts, and I'm dead serious about these.
The writing. You are not a good writer, nor an effective communicator, and there's many problematic themes in your use of language.
Your use of language -- Pelegese, we'll call it -- has two primary features:
-It's overly esoteric, pompous, and circumlocutious. -It's mired in wobbly, confusing grammar and terrible syntax.
It is terrible. It does not transmit well. It does not grok. It is inherently difficult to read. It features the first case of systemically pointless circumflex that I have personally witnessed. It comes off, unfailingly, as pretentious verbal posturing. It will always -- always -- put people off.
The 'tude. This part's been discussed at length. In utter simplicity, it's that your own attitude is causing these issues. Fault rests with thyself, yadda yadda. I won't hash you on it.
Hatrack, as a community, is about as nice as you will ever have it ever ever on the interwebs, for the purpose of the things you try to discuss. It's got a (mostly) classy and educated userbase. Subjects are discussed at length. There's a high signal to noise ratio. It's a pretty learned environment. It has slow discussion atrophy, and things stay on topic for an abnormally long time. There are no significant problems with self-referentially elite structures (oldbies, royals, d00dz with high postcount, etc).
And even here, you are wearing people down to a position of "shut up and go away." Elsewhere, given the same behavior, it would have happened faster and meaner. If you continue to post like you post and act like you act, it'll always end up that way. You come off as being stuffy and obnoxious. You probably are. I can't possibly say it in a nice way, but it's really seriously true, and the inevitable effects of this mien are going to be fairly consistent.
Those are my positions, anyway, and they sure don't stem from any mob-mentality or elitist judgement. It has nothing to do with you being from Texas, it has nothing to do with however many classes I think you have taken or not taken, it has nothing to do with how 'fresh' I think you are as a 'dude' in the 'crew.' It's all really just my independent analysis based on reading your posts and interactions.
It's also not so much a value judgement as it is an assessment. If you don't believe me, that's fine. It's just my prediction.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
MAN!!! I read this and get irritated and tell myself I'm not going back and then all of a sudden there's a little yellow folder next to it and I am drawn by some (what must be) evil force to read. And then I reread posts I've read already. And my opinion doesn't change.
Pelegius - seriously, man, you need to chill out. Have you ever tried to post when you didn't think about it so hard? Or re-read and edit more than once? Cut yourself some slack. So you're smart - as someone pointed out, we all are. Obviously if you're on a college course level when you’re 15-16 you've got a brain in your head that's working at least on par with the rest of society. How are your social skills? Does your way of writing echo your way of speaking? I'm just wondering.
Like I said, maybe just chill out a little and stop worrying about your next post being the one that everyone reads and LOVES you for. Just be yourself a little more - and if you are being yourself, think about what Hatrack is really doing for you. Maybe there's a more elitist forum out there that would appreciate your writing style more.
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lem-ese sounds like a race and not a way of speaking. But if it where a language type, it would certainly have more conjunctions starting sentences, like but, however, as, because, and and or. Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pel, it's not easy being a bright but young person. I'll grant you that. There are just some things that no matter how much time you've spent thinking about them, or reading about them, you are going to look to people older than you as if you lack perspective on the issue. We may make false assumptions about your level of experience in life, for example.
Feel free to correct us if we do that. Really. Nobody's perfect and assuming something about another person on a web-board is kind of an occupational hazard.
May I ask how you would like to be treated? You mention "fear of the other" as a problem we have in relating to you. Yet, I sense that you don't want to be treated like everyone else. That's just an example. It got me thinking, though, that I don't really know how you wish to be treated.
I know how I wish all new members to act, in rather broad strokes. You don't act the way I would hope, but you also aren't nasty or mean. I suspect that part of the reason people keep posting in your threads is that you show such great potential as a possible member of this community.
Seriously, if you were mean or obviously ill-educated, or just plain aggressively stupid, people would've given up on you earlier and in greater numbers.
This is my last post to you for awhile. I fear that my friendly advice and concern is being lost in the background and you are feeling far to put upon to really take it in any but a negative spirit. I understand. Been there, done that.
But I would be interested in you giving some details as to how you wish to be treated. Since this is my last post to you for awhile, I'll add my obvious follow-up now. That is another question:
Is there anything that you can change in your posting henceforth that would encourage others to treat you the way you wish to be treated?
posted
I beg that even those who have sworn forever to ignore me read this post in its entirety, even if it is their last.
There is no fear of the other, this has been said so many times that I fear it is becoming a creed which all Hatrackers must sign daily. And yet, the primary complaint against me, which has dominated every thread I have created in the past week, much to my dismay and horror, is that I write differently, that my writing is indicative of the other, even that I placed a circumflex in a strange manner.
I believe in a vibrant Hatrack with many styles of writing, as many as there are posters.
The second complaint about me, which would be valid if only it were true, is that I start many threads about myself. I confess to having started two that fit this description, both of which I would delete if I thought it would undo the damage. However, neither of my threads about youth in society were intended to be about me, although I used examples from my life in both. My thread about immigration should never even have brought about discussion of me, and yet that became the sole topic.
I apologize for what mistakes I have made, although I hold still that the reactions far outweighed the grievances, however real.
I realize that it is now perhaps to late for me, and that, in the eyes of many here, I have been damned. I shall, however, remain here, whatever the opposition and I shall continue to post, even if only the newest members read what I say, even, indeed, if I am left whispering to the wind I shall remain, on the off chance that the wind may blow some of my words to the ears of those who will not consciously listen.
Hatrack brings me joy no longer, but I cannot abandon it for that reason, and thus I remain, rather in Purgatory, striving towards the goal of salvation, or in Limbo, reaching for an unreachable star.
posted
Have you been listening to anyone? It's not too late for you. Everyone wants you to become a valued member of the community, and thinks you can, or would not have bothered giving you advice.
The problem isn't that you write differently, it's that many of your posts take too long to wade through because they don't make any sense. This last post was straight forward and easy to read, if heavy on the melodrama. Take it easy on creating new threads for awhile, talk WITH people instead of AT people, and you'll be fine.
Now, this is the last post I'm going to make about your writing style. If you keep talking about how you're persecuted, I'll ignore you, too. But I would be more than happy to carry on a conversation with you in any of the other threads available. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yup. Much better. Keep at it. Most of us think that you are redeemable. And worth the effort.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:And yet, the primary complaint against me, which has dominated every thread I have created in the past week, much to my dismay and horror, is that I write differently...
No. The primary complaint against you, as I understand it, is that you're a bit of a stubborn, self-centered prat. That hardly makes you unique.
Exhibit A:
quote:I realize that it is now perhaps to late for me, and that, in the eyes of many here, I have been damned. I shall, however, remain here, whatever the opposition and I shall continue to post, even if only the newest members read what I say, even, indeed, if I am left whispering to the wind I shall remain, on the off chance that the wind may blow some of my words to the ears of those who will not consciously listen.
Can you imagine how horrible it would have been for Tom Joad if he'd busted into some camp and nobody had been beating anybody else, and no one particularly cared whether he was there or not?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pel: Its moderately ironic that with this post you follow more closely the guidelines that so many have asked you to follow when posting. Your post was not difficult to understand, and the ideas (although in my opinion, towards the end boarder on melodramatic) are presented effectively.
I sincerely hope you will cease to see yourself as victim within this community and start to view yourself as an equal, open to: criticisms, jokes, and praise.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: Hatrack brings me joy no longer, but I cannot abandon it for that reason, and thus I remain, rather in Purgatory, striving towards the goal of salvation, or in Limbo, reaching for an unreachable star.
When "Hatrack: The Movie!" comes out, I vote Pel get played by William Shattner.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
The circumflex is not needed in English, which is the language you're writing in. I quote google (hardly the authority on English, yet it draws from many dictionaries):"No definitions of rôles were found in English." The ONLY reason you included that circumflex was to appear learned. You failed, and instead looked pompous.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
