Levity, on the bones of a thousand ancestors, I plead levity.
Though, seriously, the meat of the essay is dense and overly prolix and just outright badly written.
I think the subject matter is neat, but the message doesn't transmit. It's saturated in dense and obscure philosophical gunk which is not well fit to the ideas they're supposed to relay.
quote:Orincoro, it is the very loaded nature of myths which make them so good for communicating. Looking at an Ancient Roman vase of Æneas fleeing Troy, we are reminded not just of the Æneid but also of Freud's observation that "Every man carries his Anchises on his shoulders."
We are? Now I know why a great sense of relief always floods over me whenever I see broken pottery.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Not everything you write is going to be groundbreaking, and you do not have to try to force it to be by trying to frame it in language, allusion and metaphor that is obscure, complicated and confusing.
A great idea is still going to be a great idea if you write in plain English and what everyone here is trying to tell you is that it is much better if it is in plain English, rather than gobbledegook because people are going to actually want to read it!
It's not the world and it's not humanity. It's just an essay and a confusing one at that.
Pelegius, we are trying to help you.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Looking at an Ancient Roman vase of Æneas fleeing Troy, we are reminded not just of the Æneid but also of Freud's observation that "Every man carries his Anchises on his shoulders."
I wonder for how many people this is true. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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So...um...is Prometheus supposed to represent the desire to burn the wall down? I like burning things.
Or maybe it's the Prometheus on Stargate? You could just beam the wall out into space.
One of the things I've had to learn in communicating is that I am not a totally reliable model for understanding other people. Just because I know something doesn't mean that everyone else does. It's amazing what sorts of gaps other people have in their knowledge, and humbling what gaps are in mine. For example, I'm a bit ashamed to admit that before I visited England, Ireland, and Scotland this summer, I wasn't really aware that Ireland is a completely independent republic while Scotland is a part of Britain, along with England. Seems like I ought to have known. On the other hand, I made a comment to my friends just last week along the lines of, "But everyone knows that proteins are made of amino acids, right?" They disagreed, although they didn't exactly have a counterexample in mind. I think everyone should keep in mind when writing that we all have our own set of knowledge and we don't always know what part is going to overlap with our audience's set of knowledge.
(That was sort of a mathematical metaphor. But had I used mathematical terminology, not everyone would have understood it. You can use relatively obscure references as long as you explain it or state it in plain English so it's more accessible).
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Actually, one of the ways I make a living is taking things that are tough to understand for a lot of people and making them understandable.
Showing off ones knowledge can be fun, sometimes, but it doesn't really amount to much. There are always people who know more, especially about selected specialized topics. And there are always people worth communicating with who do not share the same background knowledge.
I imagine it's possible to impress a few people with a big vocabulary and some swagger, but by and large if people can't understand you, then they'll tend to tune you out more than they will take the time to figure you out.
Since one of the things I admire most in the really intelligent people I know is their ability to communicate concepts in a way that practically anyone can understand them, I tend to think that anyone who falls short of that level is missing something in their education, or their intellect. Basically, if someone has truly mastered a subject, I expect they should be able to communicate it clearly to someone else who hasn't yet attained that level of knowledge. Falling short of that, to me, means that they don't know the subject as well as they think they do.
Sometimes, I admit, I would be wrong -- there are hyper-geniuses out there who probably can't string two words together that would be comprehensible to the rest of humanity. But those are aves rares. Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Looking at an Ancient Roman vase of Æneas fleeing Troy, we are reminded not just of the Æneid but also of Freud's observation that "Every man carries his Anchises on his shoulders."
I wonder for how many people this is true.
I'll step up to the plate and say that it's not for me. I have no idea what vase he's talking about, I've never read Æneid, and I've never heard that observation of Freud's. And in terms of the general populace, I'm fairly well educated. My education just hasn't included classics. If this means Pel thinks I'm barely above an ape in terms of intelligence, that's something I can live with.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:I'll step up to the plate and say that it's not for me. I have no idea what vase he's talking about, I've never read Æneid, and I've never heard that observation of Freud's. And in terms of the general populace, I'm fairly well educated.
Right there with you.
Even on a place like Hatrack, where the people are generally much better educated and knowledgable than in the general population, I am confident that it is true for only a miniscule fraction of the population.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I have heard of that vase, and have read the Aeneid, and was also I psych major...
...and I still find Pel to be a blow hard filled with delusions of grandeur.
I am fairly smart, although no genius, but I find you threads to be pompous, ignorant, filled with poor grammar and sentence structure and thick with pseudo-intellectual garbage. You lack clarity and purpose, and I find this whole conversation stilted and boring.
If this is what you intended when you started this thread, Hugo has nothing on you.
If it isn't then perhaps you should listen to what the other people here are trying to say rather than showing off your vocabulary and ignorance at the same time.
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I try to repress most everything I've learned about Freud - if I ever knew that quote, it's been lost to my unconscious.
Seriously - Freud had some interesting things to say, but, having read some of his work in the original (bonus points, right?), I don't think much of what he says passes the truth-o-meter. He's just wrong in an interesting way.
I know of the vase, but only in passing. And there are better stories, even better ancient stories, than the Aeneid. I'll survive not studying it indepth.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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He's only, what, 17, Kwea? Go a little easy on him - he's probably had teachers cooing over him since his formative years. If he attends a *good* university, the first year will be a splash of cold water in the face. If he survives that, he'll *probably* shape up into an okay guy.
*said from my lofty age of 21*
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dunno, everyone told me college would be hard. Sure, it's been a bit tough, but freshman year wasn't much different from high school. Maybe it will be different for Pelagius, maybe it won't. Though I do agree that prose like that is likely to earn criticism from professors. They're generally more interested in good ideas than the way those ideas are stated. Obscuring substance with style = bad.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I think it depends where you go, and what you major in. I go to a small liberal arts college where a heavy emphasis is put on good prose in the majority of the departments -- you can only escape writing by being a math major, and even then you have to write good proofs.
I didn't have a problem with college, partly because my high school was fairly rigourous, partly because for my senior year almost all of my classes were actually college classes taken at the local (extremely good) C.C.
If one's skills are at the college-level or one's high school require high-level performance then the transition to college shouldn't be too difficult.
But if Pel's high school teachers are actually praising his writing style, then, should he attend a decent university or liberal arts college, he's in for a surprise. Especially as he's expressed an interest (I think) in the writing-intensive majors of history and classics.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Actually, if Pel is really lucky, he'll latch on to a good prof (maybe do work-study?) and find out Einstein was right about the relative contributions of perspiration and inspiration to genius.
Academic writing is also different from the kind of writing that's required in the rest of the world. I suspect Pel could emerge from an academic career still lacking the ability to write well in real-world contexts. Many people do.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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It depends on the field. In history or literature he probably could. If he wrote like that in economics he'd get smacked down. Same thing in philosophy.
Working for a prof. as an undergrad, at least at a research university, means that you're the slave labor for his grad student - who is also slave labor: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=705 I know - it's what I'm happily doing this summer. Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Jhai, that may be true, but it's also a much better education into how academia works than you could ever get by taking classes and passing tests.
Depends on the goals in life (and, of course, ones financial situation).
posted
Well, I'm getting paid nicely for my slave labor - thank god for the NSF - but I'd like to sleep sometime soon (final report and presentation on my research is due in on Monday).
I agree that there's no better way to learn exactly how academia works. Looking back, I think the really boring stuff - hunting down articles, reading millions of articles, doing math to make sure a theory works out, screwing around with data - has been the most informative. Some of the other interns just had one project - I've been working on six or seven at the same time.
At least this summer I didn't have to deal with microfilm.
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Sounds wonderful! I miss my days as an undergraduate lab assistant.
I also worked for profs who either didn't have graduate students or, if they did, had so much going on that the undergrads got time with the real prof and not ONLY the graduate student.
But we had some VERY cool grad students too.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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I have been writing and giving public speeches for 19 years, and have also been a judge for doing both. Since it is a form of communication, similar to writing, I can only state that the most important part of which is COMMUNICATION!
When writing, as when speaking, it is most important to impart information to the audience. There have been many times when speakers have rambled on using big words and run-on sentences(whether to sound more important or more intelligent I can only guess), and while trying to get their message across, I have found my mind wandering to thoughts such as: "I wonder if I should have worn a sweater today?" instead of trying to make sense out of the chaos they are spewing. Conversely, I have listened to speeches that lasted only a few minutes, which conveyed all pertinent information, and at the same time, were entertaining. Those of us who prepare and present speeches refer to this as "short, sweet, and to the point".
When reading, I prefer to get right to the topic, get all the important details, and be spared having to re-read sentences to try to make sense of them. I managed to plod through the post, and since I have a very large vocabulary (in several languages), I managed to understand the meaning of the "big words", but there was no coherent thought to be found even upon re-reading it! A writing professor in college told me that the easiest way to write a good piece, even if it is only 1 paragraph in length, is to make it simple: 1.State the main thought/topic clearly. 2. State pertinent information about your topic. 3. State how/why you came to your conclusion. 4. Give a short summation. SHORT. SWEET. TO THE POINT.
What you need to do is decide whether you would rather have your writing be as witty and memorable as an assembly instruction manual, using the terminology of your phenomenal vocabulary, or have it be remembered because it was easy to read and to the point?
Once you have made that decision, put into use some of the tips that other Hatrackers have given you here. The gist of what I have read here is people giving you tips that they have learned from experience..... then your response (in the form of ignoring most, or all of the help they are trying to offer you) arguing why it is better that only those in academia are able to translate what you have written into coherent thoughts, since layman's terms are so far beneath you.
I don't like to be overly critical of anyone, but the feeling I got from your posts in this topic is that you are trying too hard to sound intelligent and intellectual, to make us all feel that we should all think highly of your writing and writing style. This only makes you seem pompous and verbose
Posts: 325 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I don't have a problem with someone including a somewhat obscure Greek myth or somewhat obscure philosophy into their posts at Hatrack, but this isn't the way to do it.
You're supposed to be attempting to communicate with people. If you're trying to get an idea across, you need to explain why you feel your references advance your point and not just make a reference to them. That would be the case even if you were talking about things more in mainstream koine.
I don't know why you think these things are relevant. The most common usages of the Prometheus that I'm aware of are of a benefactor of mankind being imprisioned by because he went against the powerful, a paragon of physical and mental fitness, and references to the Prometheus/Epimetheus (forethough/afterthought) creation story. You obviously don't explicitly invoke any of these. But, I don't see you implictly linking to any of them either. I don't see where this reference serves your point.
Likewise, anti-humanism is a philosophical movement reacting against the humanist elevation of the individual and personal consciousness and volition in favor of more deterministic - most often, social structural - explanations and manipulations of behavior. I don't think that you establish at any point that this is either a valid description of congress's behavior or the motivation from which they are acting.
If I worked at it, I might be able to come up with ways these thing may fit what you wrote, but that's not my job. It's yours.
---
Incidentally, you sound like you really don't understand what Lincoln achieved with the Gettysburg Address. Even the opening "Four score and seven years ago" is a piece of rhetorical genius which in time settled the hotly debated question of the birthdate of our country.
At some point, I hope you learn that smart people who disagree with are often useful to listen to, rather than show how they are wrong. . . . . Oh, almost forgot *cyber-wedgies Pel*
By about the 2nd sentence, my BS meter has pegged and I tune to a new station.
If people here are giving you advice, that's at least an indication that they are finding something of value to your utterances. Good on 'em.
I have taught at the college level. If I got writing like yours in a paper, I would try hard, once, to fathom whether you actually understood the subject matter. If I couldn't make a coherent thread pop out from among the pages of gobbledygook, I'd give you an "F" and offer you the chance to rewrite it.
Once.
My tolerance level for this kind of junky use of language is low. VERY low.
Since this is a web board and the goals are different, I'll just tend to switch to a different thread or post and see if maybe someone else has responded to you and that might give me a general idea of the points you covered.
Prety silly, though, if the way people figure out what you had to say is by reading other people's comments about it.
And so far, all I can find out about you is that people think you are intelligent but have adopted a writing style that is like vomiting from the deep end of the dictionary.
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posted
Incidentally, I don't often read your posts Pel, in part because of what Bob's saying. Way too much bs to wade through for the content.
Another large part of it is that, while you throw out a lot of "aren't I smart" allusions, I've rarely seen you make a good argument of your own on anything. Like above, I don't actually think your references generally connect with what you are talking about very well. I know nearly all of the stuff you talk about, and it's sort of like listening to someone consistently misuse big words.
---
Also, I'm a highly educated psychologist and I don't find Freud's comment on Anchises as much more than another example of him overextending so as to bring classical mythology into psychology. Freud was a genious, but he had some pretty strong hang-ups and he really would have benefitted from cross-cultural studies.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Another large part of it is that, while you throw out a lot of "aren't I smart" allusions, I've rarely seen you make a good argument of your own on anything.
I'd add to this that anytime someone does question you on something, you respond with something along the lines of, "Well, there's no way to ever know who's right and who's wrong, and we both have many famous dead foreigners who agree with us, so I call it a draw." I'm paraphrasing, of course, but the point is that this is a dead giveaway that you can't be bothered to support your own assertions. Most of which are asserting quite a bit.
And because I don't like to see anyone, no matter how belligerent, get dogpiled, I will agree with Icarus and say I've noticed some improvement in your writing in the past few days. Less obscure references, more two and three syllable words.
It's still chock full of logical fallacies, but you'll tighten that up with practice, I'm sure.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Another large part of it is that, while you throw out a lot of "aren't I smart" allusions, I've rarely seen you make a good argument of your own on anything.
I'd add to this that anytime someone does question you on something, you respond with something along the lines of, "Well, there's no way to ever know who's right and who's wrong, and we both have many famous dead foreigners who agree with us, so I call it a draw." I'm paraphrasing, of course, but the point is that this is a dead giveaway that you can't be bothered to support your own assertions. Most of which are asserting quite a bit.
Not only that, but it also betrays a certain level of ignorance.
For instance, Pelegius, you made the claim that ideas are rooted in language and then said that we could argue about it endlessly and never reach a consensus. This says to me that you have only a passing familiarity with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and no familiarity with any of its criticisms (which are many).
It's also an ineffective argument strategy. If x is true, but there's no way to prove it, then it has little relevance to a logical discussion.
quote:Not only that, but it also betrays a certain level of ignorance.
For instance, Pelegius, you made the claim that ideas are rooted in language and then said that we could argue about it endlessly and never reach a consensus. This says to me that you have only a passing familiarity with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis or any of its criticisms (which are many).
It's also an ineffective argument strategy. If x is true, but there's no way to prove it, then it has little relevance to a logical discussion.
Which is not to say that this is absolutely a problem. Having ideas that seem to you to be unprovable or being unfamiliar with the entirety of a subject is not really a problem, as long as you are willing to acknowledge these conditions and are open to more information.
It doesn't make for good arguing, but it does open up some avenues for learning and discussion, which is often much better.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Jhai: He's only, what, 17, Kwea? Go a little easy on him - he's probably had teachers cooing over him since his formative years. If he attends a *good* university, the first year will be a splash of cold water in the face. If he survives that, he'll *probably* shape up into an okay guy.
*said from my lofty age of 21*
I am not even saying he isn't already a good guy. I don't know him (although I think I know who he really is).
I just figured that if he had not noticed that most of Hatrack (my wife included at this point) has been trying to show him what was wrong with his writing. Since he accuses them of causing him to leave Hatrack, perhaps the "splash of cool water" is needed now.
Take a look at some of the posts others made to try and help him. It is not simple to take his original post and dissect it, but more than one person did just that. They didn't just say "Dude,you suck", or anything like that. The went, in some cases point by point, through his post and showed clearly and simply WHY his post wasn't good. Then they followed up with reasonable suggestions and comments.
All of that takes time and effort. People wanted to show him what they meant when they made snarky comments at first rather than just ignoring him.
His response? To start a whiny thread about how Hatrack is waning, all because of the tempest in a teapot that is Pel.
I am done at this point. If he can't figure it out by now I am not going to encourage him to keep acting melodramatic.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Sorry Kwea - I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't think Pel was a good guy. By "okay guy" I simply meant "good writer and worthwhile contributer to Hatrack discussions."
My shorthand takes a little time to get used to.
I think it's a little easier to ignore the advice of some random people on the internet than the freshman writing professor threatening to give you an F if you don't shape up. That's why I still have hope for the real world.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I'm not sure how honestly Pel is really looking for advice on how to be better recieved by Hatrackers. I seriously doubt his sincerity.
Here's the thing Pel: Either you don't understand Hatrack, or you don't understand average human beings in general. You're smart, ever heard the phrase "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?"
I read a lot of your posts to start, then stopped. I didn't stop because I don't like you, or because I don't think you have anything useful to contribute, but because there's a lot to read, between Hatrack and the news sites and fun sites I like to read, and your posts take up way too much of my brain's RAM. It's not just overly complicated, it's cumbersome, and worse, it isn't necessary at all.
Like others have said, you have to know your audience. Your grammatical mistakes don't really bother me, and though the spelling seems a bit grating at times, it doesn't really bother me either. What does bother me is when you type out paragraphs like you're trying to make everything sound like either a mock Jeffersonian paper that redefines something in a fundamental way, or like an infomercial for the Thesaurus.
Hey! I just remembered who you remind me of, Dawson from Dawson's Creek, or for that matter any of them. I've never seen a more ridiculous pack of dialogue that was less representative of the teenage population of the nation than that show. No one talks like that in real life, not ALL the time. I don't care if you percieve yourself as dumbing down your posts for the simple folk of Hatrack, just talk like a human and not an android, and you'll get much better responses, and far less attacks on your diction, syntax and grammar so often.
I don't think the volume of criticisms on you is necessary, but the sentiment behind it is certainly justifiable. Even I, someone who usually doesn't go after the posting style of a poster want to stab your posts with Ockham's Razor until they cry out for mercy. Or at the very least, cut them into more manageable pieces.
Just give us the Cliffs notes version from now on.
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: It's also an ineffective argument strategy. If x is true, but there's no way to prove it, then it has little relevance to a logical discussion.
Interesting you should say that. Haven't I seen you on the "Well, but I have faith, so there" side of some religious discussions? I could be mistaken.
I'd apologise for the total derail, but since Pel seems to have decamped, I think the thread is about due for one.
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I'm not objecting to having faith - I mean, I do find it an objectionable habit, but that's not the point I'm making today. Rather, I'm pointing out that JB is being inconsistent - if he is. I could be confusing him with someone else. By his logic, it seems to me, it is impossible to argue in favour of any religion, yet I vaguely recall seeing him do so.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Orincoro, it is the very loaded nature of myths which make them so good for communicating. Looking at an Ancient Roman vase of Æneas fleeing Troy, we are reminded not just of the Æneid but also of Freud's observation that "Every man carries his Anchises on his shoulders."
A machine gun is an effective killing machine. But if you want to cut a hole in a peice of paper, I suggest that you not use one for that. A canon can kill a mosquito, yeah, but then you're responsible for where the cannon-ball goes.
You're using a Bushido blade when what you need is an exacto-knife. Think small. Real small!
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jhai: He's only, what, 17, Kwea? Go a little easy on him - he's probably had teachers cooing over him since his formative years. If he attends a *good* university, the first year will be a splash of cold water in the face. If he survives that, he'll *probably* shape up into an okay guy.
*said from my lofty age of 21*
I'm also 21.
You should look at Pel's profile and click over to his "wikipedia" profile. You think he postures here?
To quote the tag (and I apologize for calling you out Pel, but its a public profile, so you must expect someone will read it...)
"An historian by training, an Anglican by baptism, a liberal by nature and a Postmodernist by inclination."
I would say, on reflection, that he might be PERFECT for Oxford after all! For none of the reasons he thinks...
Actually he has become endeared to me, in a strange way, and I am starting to appreciate these threads. They get me thinking about how to explain some of these things in ways I would understand if I'd said the things Pelegius says.
Yes, he is going to get a HUGE ice-water dunking in his first semester, and I think he's going to have a blast when he figures things out. The potential is all there, he's enthusiastic, and no-one is taking THAT from him. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Pel, I actually found this more readable than many of your posts. I had to make an effort to finish the essay, but I was able to get all the way through it.
I really liked the bit about Locke and Narural Law. As a Christian I see it more as God's Law, but in this case, it's the same thing. We should help people becuase it's right.
Plus, we sound rediculous accusing illegal immigrants of stealing education and emergency room services. When Chet was in the hospital last year, our bill was over $26,000. There's no way the taxes we've paid in the last six years pay for that, we certainly couldn't, and the hospital wrote it off.
Did Chet steal emergency room services? If so, would you rather he had bled to death? If not, why is it different when an American does it? Why should people be denied something we would give an American just becuase they were born somewhere else.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I did not expend the time and energy necessary to read the opening post. It seemed designed, in my opinion at least, to thwart the Average Reader. I don't think I'm the Average Reader-lengthy, highblown prose doesn't stop me from reading a great many things-and it still stopped me, and others both more knowledgeable and more experienced in rhetoric than I am.
That's something to consider.
A couple of specific points: Prometheus is by no means whatsoever a commonly recognized cultural figure throughout America, probably not even throughout the West. Unless I cherry-picked the people, I'd have to ask, oh, probably ten people before I got an answer if I asked the question, "Do you know who Prometheus is?" and that person would probably be in junior or senior high school, recently studying Greek mythology.
Your argument that Prometheus is a commonly known cultural figure are just flat out wrong.
You're also flat-out wrong about the impacts of the Gettysburg Address, especially when you say it "merely" reiterated the idea of what America was. I can only assume you're pretty ignorant of American Civil War history, because I believe anyone who was not would realize that in that time, opinions were so divisive and everyone was so angry, tired, cynical, and hopeless that any kind of 'reiteration' was in and of itself a reshaping.
It's like he built a solid, elegant home in a hurricane or an earthquake and you're listening to the speech and saying, "Eh. It's got four walls, a roof, and a door. It's OK."
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Prometheus is a symbol of humanity and human greatness.
I disagree. Promethius is a symbol of handouts and having things done for you... of magic over science, of possessing technology over understanding it.
posted
Certainly there's evidence of that in the text. Consider "In one short word, then, learn the truth condensed: all arts of mortals from Prometheus spring."
But I think, more correctly, Prometheus is really a symbol of the fruits of hubris. In other words, all the accomplishments of man, in a Promethian worldview, are stolen from the gods and come despite them.
Prometheus is meant, in most such stories, not to represent a benignly powerful ally but rather a form of super-man himself, someone who sees so much potential in humanity that he refuses to be content with what the gods -- who, remember, represent all Nature in Greco-Roman myth -- have chosen to allot to them.
And he is punished, and he suffers, but it's clear that this is noble suffering. Our woes, the myth suggests, are our own doing and born of our pride and disobedience -- but we would not be who we are if had not reached above our station.
This particular meme is a common one, not least because it very closely echoes man's own constant struggles with ambition and the laws of nature.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: It's also an ineffective argument strategy. If x is true, but there's no way to prove it, then it has little relevance to a logical discussion.
Interesting you should say that. Haven't I seen you on the "Well, but I have faith, so there" side of some religious discussions? I could be mistaken.
I'd apologise for the total derail, but since Pel seems to have decamped, I think the thread is about due for one.
religious discussions ≠ logical discussions
I also don't remember ever saying anything that boiled down to "I have faith, so there," so I'm really not sure what you're refering to. And even if I do make a faith-based comment or argument in a logical discussion, I don't try to pass it off as a logical argument.
In other words, I don't see any inconsistency between my criticism of Pelegius and my own alleged behavior.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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AvidReader: At least your taxes payed for some of it, then. The rest of it was payed for my your neighbors taxes, since they payed them even if they didn't use the hospital.
SOMEONE had to pay for those services somehow, even if you didn't. We don't have universal health care here in the USA. If we did, THEN it wouldn't be stealing.
(or so the argument goes, anyway.)
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Not sure if its good or bad that I read the subject of this thread and ascertained that it was another thread by you.
I was not suprised that the initial responses were directed at your writing style as I found your post to be very inaccessable.
I know that sometimes in order to express ones opinions with the utmost accuracy, certain words are employed for that purpose. (hey look I just did it with that sentence.) But I would suggest you exercise moderation in this regard and for that matter in ALL your writing.
I have been to a few forums where the communities intelectualism and patience would not accomidate the length of my posts.
I have found that hatrack has been the most interesting forum I have yet to spend any time in. In my opinion there are alot of reasonable posters and contributors. If they entire community is telling you to adjust your writing style then either one of two things are true
1: You would profit by heeding their advice and attempting to adjust your writings accordingly, assuming you care that people post in your threads in a productive manner at all. The fact you post here demonstrates at least a desire to discuss with others your ideas.
2: The community as a whole is unable to act as the intelectual foil that you need them to, and therefore you ought to find another forum that appreciates what you bring to the table more.
Ill be honest I think you will find there are plenty of interesting people here to talk to. They are not asking you to dumb down your speech. Merely to speak at a level that is conducent to effective communication.
You will note that nobody has said, "Your posts are annoying, just stop writing." They have merely asked for you to make some minor changes to your style, so that they might with reasonable effort give audience to your jottings, or to be more accurate your disquisitions.
Ill be honest I heard the word "Jottings" in my head while writing and I felt a need to use it in a sentence.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Some have, most haven't. The more you act the way you have been, the more will do so. If you want people to read your posts, behave like a mature adult engaged in intellectual conversation.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: BB, no, they have simply stated that they will not read them.
I very rarely say to people, "You are flat our wrong," but,
Pelegius, I think you are flat out wrong.
I just read through the entire thread and I honestly feel the overwhelming feeling is a request that you write within some very reasonable parameters.
If you make a concertive effort to do some of the things our fellow hatrackers have suggested, I will read your next post in its entirety regardless of length (and you have my word on that).
I have great respect for people who are humble enough to accept good intentioned criticism and quell their pride enough to profit from it.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Plus, if we're refusing to read you, we're doing a markedly good job of using our psychic powers to discern what you have said and respond Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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