Did you not see their faces crack? They pushed themselves to their own physical breaking point and beyond. They couldn't. Will can only hold so long, beyond the body giving out.
posted
"Y'know, it's clearly obvious at this point in the thread, that anyone can not learn or comprehend anything. Though maybe they don't want to do so enough."
That might have actually made sense had Rabid said it, but you're being a bit hypocritical don't you think? Because people aren't "learning" anything from YOU, we're unable to learn or comprehend anything?
posted
If you life weights you will get stronger. If you run miles you will get faster. If you go to school you will become more intelligent, and will have a higher IQ. It is not hard at all to change any of these things.
However, no matter how much you lift weights, you probably will never be able to bend steel. And no matter how much you study, you probably won't be able to memorize all the known digits of pi. There are limits that people have.
Those limits are not very relevant to the question at hand, though. You don't need to be a super-genius to be a rocket scientist - I know a rocket scientist, a young one albeit, who is very much not a genius. And you certainly don't need to be a genius to learn more than you currently know. Those things are well within the capacities of almost all people. But you might need to be patient - you can't go straight from Algebra class to Astrophysics. There are steps that need to be taken along the way. Similarly, you might not be able to read advanced science texts unless you first study the vocabulary first.
Having said that, I agree that a lot of the vocabulary in academic texts is put there for no good reason. You shouldn't need to know special words except insofar as a lack of more well-known words makes it necessary.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
*resists urge to make rocket scientist comment*
Nevertheless, I do think there are certain limits that the brain has, and I think that these differ from person to person. Some people "get" things instinctively, while others have to work hard to understand them. But the thing is, the people who work hard to understand them would probably be better at explaining them to another person than those who learn instinctively. So I guess there's a sort of trade-off.
posted
I was referring to basic logic, actually. As I said before, some people are incapable of making logical inferences or following logical trains of thought.
You still haven't answered the question about how someone with Down Syndrome could become a rocket scientist.
posted
Tresopax, what about the person who never is able to "get" algebra, even after much pain and suffering and agonizing. Do you want that person designing your space travel?
posted
While it's clear that everyone has limits to what they can do, no one can accurately predict what those limits are until that person themselves tests their limits. This is why the myth of 'everyone can do X' is useful, not because it is necessarily literally true, but because it is a useful tool that often allows people to function more betterer and be happier.
Thus, because it's not literally true, we don't let just anyone design planes or rockets or submarines, but because in many cases it's not known to be false, it's useful to treat everyone as if they have that ability and encourage them to push themselves to their fullest and see if they can get to that point where they can design rockets, etc.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:While it's clear that everyone has limits to what they can do, no one can accurately predict what those limits are until that person themselves tests their limits. This is why the myth of 'everyone can do X' is useful, not because it is necessarily literally true, but because it is a useful tool that often allows people to function more betterer and be happier.
It's also a useful tool for creating unrealistic/unrealized hopes and crushed dreams.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Possibly, Eros. Little in this world doesn't have a price. I think it's pretty clear, though, that the idea that people should try to be as excellent they can be is more frequently beneficial for the individual and society than the alternative.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Possibly, Eros. Little in this world doesn't have a price. I think it's pretty clear, though, that the idea that people should try to be as excellent they can be is more frequently beneficial for the individual and society than the alternative.
I disagree, but that's probably because I happen to belong to the group that got screwed by this idea.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Strider- Your friend my just have trouble reading the drier academic books. A lot of nonfiction I've attempted to read seems to be written with the express purpose of putting the reader to sleep.
There is some nonfiction out there that's written to be very enjoyable to read. Maybe if he started out reading some of the more enjoyable books he could innoculate himself and be able to read the more boring books later?
Maybe he would enjoy "A Brief History of Time"? All of the other nonfiction I enjoy focuses on women in history, but if you think he'd be interested I can recomend some titles.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote: Actually, I think the vast majority (>90%) of adults could be a rocket scientist if they really wanted to.
I disagree mph. I'm absolutely certain that *you* could be a rocket scientist if you wanted to. I probably could have too. Though I have been to the point where my mind actually cracked and stopped functioning at rocket scientist levels. I might not have been able to as a result.
But I think the people who are capable of being such grossly overestimate the amount of the population who truly are capable of it. Why? Because it would make us arrogant elitist snobs, if we actually believed deep down, that only a small percentage of people can do these things. (And there are many geeks who are arrogant elitist snobs.) So in order to retain our humanity and humility, we lie to ourselves and tell ourselves that everyone can do what our brains can do. But it's a lie. A necessary lie perhaps, but still a lie.
AJ
If that's a lie that I tell myself, then it serves a dual purpose. Not only does it help me not be an arrogant elitist snob about some things, but it helps me feel better about things that I can't do. For example, I also believe that over 95% of people could learn to draw well enough to make a piece of art worth of being framed and hung on the wall.
But I don't think it's a lie. I don't have any artistic skills, but if I wanted to develop it, I believe I could.
Maybe it would take five years. Maybe ten. Heck -- maybe fifty, if it's something that I am particularly ill-suited to. But if I really wanted to, I think I'd get there. I likewise think that if people really wanted to, they could become rocket scientists.
It's just that most people don't really want to do things that they are ill-suited for, because it's too hard and frustrating.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: quote:Possibly, Eros. Little in this world doesn't have a price. I think it's pretty clear, though, that the idea that people should try to be as excellent they can be is more frequently beneficial for the individual and society than the alternative.
I disagree, but that's probably because I happen to belong to the group that got screwed by this idea.
You disagree that people should try to do the best they can? I don't know what to say to that.
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posted
No, I don't disagree that people should try the best they can. I disagree that this system of lying to yourself and your children about their potential is worth the number of people it hurts. I also don't think most people need the lie to do the best they can.
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posted
I'm not saying that anybody can be the best or among the best in the world. No matter how good you are, there's always going to be some Mozart that comes along and blows you to pieces.
But I do believe that most people are capable of basic competence in most things.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Tresopax, what about the person who never is able to "get" algebra, even after much pain and suffering and agonizing. Do you want that person designing your space travel?
How "never" is "never"? After struggling for just a few semesters? A few years? A few decades?
I am willing to concede that there are some things that some people just cannot "get", no matter how hard they try. I do believe these situations are pretty rare, though.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
You will never seen more people sincerely self-deluded about their singing ability, than you will see on American Idol. I think someone posted a clip here on hatrack of the infamous tone deaf asian guy who is now a celebrity just because it was so astonishing that anyone could be that downright awful at it.
posted
To give a different example, one that isn't dependant on intellegence or training. . . lots of little girls want to grow up to be ballerinas. Many of them wish it with their hearts and souls, and want nothing more in the world.
Ballerinas have to be small enough to be lifted easily on stage. Practically, that means an average of 5'4" tall and weighing about 105 pounds.
If a girl, genetically, is going to grow up to be 5'10" tall, she cannot be a ballerina. Unless you think that by wanting to hard enough you can somehow shrink.
Not everybody can do everything they want to do. If you want to do something badly enough, there is a lot you can do to make it happen. But some things are beyond your control.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
The details of the discussion escape me, but the repeated theme seems to be rather competitive (rocket scientist = pinacle of achievement).
If I could add a couple thoughts, they would be:
1. One of the best strategies for success in life is to play only those games where one has some skill. Learn what your talents are and apply them to the endeavors that are likely to generate a good payoff for you (sort of a "love what you do" philosophy).
2. Ignore the previous strategy. If you like to learn for the sake of learning (rather than career-enhancement, ego-fulfillment, whathaveyou), I reckon it's plenty fine to indulge in pursuits that you have no native talent for. On the surface, this might seem pretty inefficient, and it is in light of #1, but I personally think that "dabbling" is an underappreciated activity.
Posts: 351 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:"basic competence" does not equal "rocket scientist"
Why not? Most engineers are not geniuses.
edit:
quote:rocket scientist = pinacle of achievement
I think that I must have a different definition of "rocket scientist" than most people. I pretty much just think of it as an aeronautical engineer who happens to work with rockets instead of airplanes.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
See, when I think "rocket scientist," I think of one particular individual. And thus, to me, "rocket scientist" indicates a high level of intelligence, among other things.
Honestly though, I think there really are some things that are beyond certain people's grasp. I think that people generally display an interest in subjects that are easier for them to grasp on some level. That is, maybe someone really likes calculus despite the fact that it requires a lot of work for him, but really, he finds the solving easier to understand than, say, creative writing.
posted
Yeah, think a lot of misunderstanding is happening because of the term "rocket scientist" which I guess many other people associate with genius, hence phrases like "you don't have to be a rocket scientist".
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posted
"I think that I must have a different definition of 'rocket scientist' that most people. I pretty much just think of it as an aeronautical engineer who happens to work with rockets instead of airplanes."
posted
I don't see how it makes a difference. Sure, you have to be exceptional to be in the top of your field, but basic competence would allow you to make a contribution, probably working on other people's projects.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
To me Rocket Scientist = 1)scientist directly employed by NASA or JPL Someone who is *in* Mission control when they hear "Houston We Have a Problem" and Directly Involved with solving that problem. There was a fantastic thing on one of the educational channels recently on the history of NASA. Those men and women were Rocket Scientists. Everyone else is deluding themselves. THey do demonstrate the *same* level of fantatical dedication to their chosen avocation that elite athletes do.
2)(lesser definition but I'll take this broader view if forced) someone actually working directly on the design and engineering of space propulsion vehicles (and the people *in charge* of their design, not their research peons which are students on internships, "making a contribution on someone else's project" doesn't count), a very dedicated tiny and elite group, even at the contractor level.
The best of the best of engineers and programmers and scientists. Somewhere where there are always a gazillion of qualified people who *will* be left out since not everyone that wants to can actually work in the space program, there simply aren't enough slots available for everyone who wants to or is even qualified to be. It's as much up to luck as it is excellence whether you get there. Everyone can't be an astronaut, either, but that's what all rocket scientists really want to be a part of even if they are on the ground.
It's actually much easier for someone to become a molecular geneticist, than a "rocket scientist" the demand is higher and you can get employed in the field with much less demonstration of excellence.
posted
I know lots of rocket scientists. And rocket engineers. Most of them are about the same level of intelligence as most of the other people I hang out with. The difference? They've all had a chance to get the education they needed to learn the science and be hired, had the right experience and/or contacts to be hired at JPL, and have an interest in and desire to work in that field. Most of the other people I know, you could say the same about their jobs.
It's just another type of job. I don't know why people get all worked up about rocket scientists.
(Okay, it is kind of cool that one of my friends, the banjo player in our band, has his name in books on the history of space exploration and stuff. But still. )
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote: Most of them are about the same level of intelligence as most of the other people I hang out with. The difference? They've all had a chance to get the education they needed to learn the science and be hired, had the right experience and/or contacts to be hired at JPL, and have an interest in and desire to work in that field.
Notice all the caviats to becoming a rocket scientist. If you don't know the right people and aren't in the right place at the right time, you aren't gonna make it. It's as much luck as it is desire. (And I know quite a few people myself who would fit the broad definition, and even one who was in Mission Control) I'm not saying it is impossible, I am saying not everyone who wants to will be one.
posted
I feel pretty confident that there are some things beyond the pale for any given person. That is, at some point and in some area, each of us would fall short. (There's the old cliche that we all think we have the Great American Novel tucked away in some corner of our brains, if we'd only sit down to write it. And physicians are famous for assuming that just because they are good at medicine, they are experts n everything. 'Taint so. )
On the other hand, we may never know what those limtations are unless we try. The problem is that -- I think -- sometimes "tryng" is at great expense, be it financially, physically, or emotionally. It does seem unkind when that expense is taken on with a blind unawareness of potential or likely limitations.
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posted
Yup. Same with most other jobs, though-- I know lots of people who aren't doing the work they want to because of lack of a chance at education, or lack of contacts, or lack of job availability.
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posted
It's like being a rock star. Just becuase you have the skills doesn't mean you get to be a star.
So while I believe that most people could eventually become very good at the guitar, that doesn't mean that they could then become a rock star.
But those are somewhat "artificial" limitations, like the ballet one, and don't really speak to a person's abilities.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
From a TV blog , quoting Grounded for Life:
quote: And don't forget Eddie's latest life advice: Aim low and stay under the radar. This was to Lily, in the kitchen, when she was miserable because she thought she'd been booed off the stage during her act. My favorite part of the exchange came next:
Lily: "But I thought I could be anything I dreamed." Eddie: "No, that's crap. If people could be anything they dreamed the world would be full of movie stars and astronauts, and then who would make the sandwiches?"
A Confucian axiom for the Now generation.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
if you don't have the proper center of gravity, ballet is nearly impossible. Same with gymnastics, same with ice skating.
Some people never do get to the level of math where they can balance their checkbook, no matter how hard they try.
Either way merely wanting to be something so bad you dedicate your life to it, could be a horrible waste of a life, if you are attempting something outside your actual abilities.
On another TV show (Daddy's Spoiled Little Girl) was this obscenely rich family who were convinced their daughter was going to be the next Thing vocally. She was taking voice lessions with a coach that cost thousands. She was signed up for a talent show at a two bit fairground. She did a horrible job. Yet they are all utterly convinced she is going to end up on a recording label. Daddy simply isn't going to be able to pay his way there on this one. Cause recording labels aren't stupid. They aren't going to take someone who doesn't have a chance in hell of actually selling a CD no matter how rich Daddy is.
posted
In my experience (25 years teaching high school), virtually everybody can learn, and enjoy learning, but they have to be interested in what they're learning, either by being captured early in its presentation to them, or by already having an interest in the subject to begin with. Many students have switched off completely from learning by the time I see them because they've never (or haven't for a while) found anything presented to them in school that they are interested in. But, these same students can give you intricate detail of the type of guitars and amp systems their favourite metal guitar gods favour and why, for example, or how many dunks some NBA player made last season. I heard a student who, to put it bluntly, is widely regarded as in last place in the 'Spot the Brain Cell' awards, give a really interesting and knowledgeable speech in his English class on Johnny Unitas (this in rugby-mad New Zealand) which went completely over the head of most of his class mates. He was interested, he learned (in fact he taught himself), and could converse knowledgeably and reasonably in-depth on the subject. But his school grades, his academic performance? Pathetic. I've seen plenty of former students who really struggled in school come back for a visit and describe with enthusiasm their job in which they are excelling, or at least succeeding, when in school they were hopeless. You get someone in a context that is favourable to them and they can and will learn, once they get past the obstacles of negative attitude (about school, themselves), lack of interest, absenteeism, and so on.
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