posted
I think you are right, Ryuko. For me, it is similar to th realization, in my teens, that my dearly beloved grandmother is racist beyond belief. I went through a hard time trying to figure out how I could love her so, and loathe her beliefs. The fact is, I can. And it is the same with Orson Scott Card. I disagree with some things that he says, but I love the man's mind. Period. I love his literature, I love his devotion to his family, and I love his kindness. When I disagree with what he has to say, and sometimes with how he says it, I still listen. There are exactly zero people in ths world whom I agree with completely. There are oodles of people that I love and respect.
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posted
Scott, As I stated in some of the recent posts in that thread, the attack on OSC was part of the whole message. I considered it important to show exactly how I thought he was buying into the very crap self-esteem that he was decrying and tat because of this, he looked (to people who actually knew the essentials of what he was talking aboubt) similar to the horrible singers who go on American Idol convinced that they're great. I think it's even worse in OSC's case because it's not a lack of talent that's holding back, but rather a lack of rigor (the same thing he unsubstantively accuses the people who work in my field of in his article). That's a central point to the whole thread.
Of course, there is also the mre specific issue that I think OSC has demonstrated that he can't be trusted to provide accurate information. That goes beyond the specific problems in the column and I think that it's a legitmate criticism. Shouldn't we be conerned about the accuracy of a source? If my assessment is correct, hasn't OSC shown that he's an untrustworthy source?
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quote:the attack on OSC was part of the whole message.
You were rude. You are now saying it is okay to be rude because you meant to be rude. It's all right that you threw up on him because at least you aimed.
[ February 16, 2005, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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posted
I still think it's not at all clear that, except for the "self-reporting" bit, he was talking at all about the people who work in your field. His criticisms were aimed at people abusing the work of the people in your field.
I mean, he's talking about the work of people in your field favorably the entire time he praises the SA article.
posted
Dag, Not the way I read it, he's not. He's saying, thank goodness after 20+ years of blindly accepting this crap, someone finally called people on it.
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posted
It was so interesting (read: surprising) to me to have just finished the Ender Saga and find Hatrack River to realize that OSC was a Mormon! ( i know, i know, surprise! but we really shouldn't ignore the truth any longer)
I thought, truthfully, that OSC was an atheist, and his books, especially Xenocide, helped me hone my own ideas on the subject. Imagine how strange it is to find out that one of the greatest atheistic writers you know is RELIGIOUS! (audible gasp from audience)
My point is, I may not have been the only person who felt they had found a kindred spirit in OSC's writing -- only to discover he was writing *ideas* and not necessarily his own, but ones that worked well within the context of his stories.
And because of that, there may be quite a few people here who actually don't have that much in common with OSC, and his political/social views on things therefore offend.
I know I was hurt by the homosexuality article, among others, and truthfully it's taken a lot for me to separate the MAN whose writings I worshipped and the man who hosts this forum and lives his own life.
I guess I'm a bit like Plikt in that sense Except not in the insult-Card's-wife-so-brutally-right-before-his-death-that-his-sister-smacks-me-a-good-one way. Just in the blind worshipfullness way
I think one of the reasons that OSC has so many strong opponents of his opinion writing on this board is because there are quite a few people on this board that may have found things to hold on to in his novel writing that aren't core beliefs in his own world.
posted
kat, The entire disagreement on this thread is that I don't accept that I was being rude in this context. You can say it as often as you like, but that doesn't make it true. Make a case, define your terms, and we can talk about it, but all you're doing, from my perspective, is calling me names.
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quote:Dag, Not the way I read it, he's not. He's saying, thank goodness after 20+ years of blindly accepting this crap, someone finally called people on it.
I agree that's what he's saying. But I think "this crap" is not the work of the people in the field (with the exception of the self-reporting bit), and "people" is not the people in your field.
posted
You admit you made an attack on him and deliberately called him one of the bad American Idol singers. That's rude, Squick! However justified you feel in punching someone, that doesn't change that you just punched someone.
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posted
kat, The entire disagreement on this thread is that I don't accept that I was being rude in this context. You can say it as often as you like, but that doesn't make it true. Make a case, define your terms, and we can talk about it, but all you're doing, from my perspective, is calling me names.
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posted
Well, I think what really matters is whether Card would think Squicky's being rude. Which I don't think any of us have the right to speak about.
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posted
But to follow up on that, the idea that I did something wrong because someone got angry or hurt or otherwise upset because of my remarks is exactly what OSC was talking about in his column and what I was talking about in my thread. That's the crap self-esteem idea that we shouldn't do something because it'll make someone feel bad. I expect that if he read what I wrote and it actually affected him OSC would feel bad. I said he was wrong and that he was wrong because he didn't know what he was talking about. Heck, I likened him to the deluded terrible singers from American Idol. That should upset someone. OSC and I are both saying that not only isn't that a good enough reason to refrain from something, but that doing so is very detrimental in the long run.
I believe that my description is accurate. I've made a case for it and this case is certainly up for disputation. In contrast, what we have here is people offering characterizations without and support. They think I was intentionally being nasty. But they've offered me no reason why I should accept their judgement over my own or that of other people who don't think that. And, it's not like we don't have a history. I mean, jeez, kat accused me of being sexist once and has never taken it back or appologized (oh wait she just did). Even if I was concerned with what people thought of me, I don't see why I should accept her judgement uncritically.
edit: AntiCool, It could (and likely was) considered rude by the crap self-esteem advocates to fail a kid on a test. That doesn't mean it actually was rude or that we therefore shouldn't fail kids on tests. If we were in a different, non-debate/discussion context (say at an Endercon or something) it would be rude for me talk like I did, unless OSC opened up with something like his article. In this context, I don't think it was inappropriate. If you consider saying something negative about someone an attack, I did attack him. But I don't think that saying something negative about someone is necessarily rude and thus I rejct that attacking someone under that definition is necessarily rude.
posted
I'm deeply interested in matters of propriety. I think they can open the door to the dignity of man or mask all levels of corruption.
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posted
Squicky, you're being rude now. Reposting posts isn't a conversation - you aren't respecting or listening to the people who are talking to you. This is not a conversation.
posted
kat, you're being rude now. Merely repeating things that you've said before and were answered isn't a conversation - you aren't respecting or listening to the people who are talking to you. This is not a conversation.
I'm still here though.
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posted
The attacks of the 'nice people' on what they perceive to be the 'less nice people' are a major contributer to me not being around much lately and sticking to non-issue threads. And I know I'm not the only one.
It doesn't have anything to do with OSC's opinions, which I don't pay a lot of attention to. I mean, about writing and stuff, sure. He know's his stuff, no doubt. Views on homosexual marriage or whatever... I don't really pay much attention to what toothpaste my Optometrist reccommends, either. It might be the best toothpaste and he might be right, but that's not why I go see him.
I tyhink we my be slipping into some common social fallacies here. I found this article very enlightening, and I'd like to share it before I politely witdraw from the thread.
posted
"Rudeness is defined by culture. If people think you are being rude, you are being rude, even if you don't mean to."
By this standard, can we all agree that OSC has been very rude to many of the people on this site?
Can we agree, then, that many of the people on this site -- to whom he has never apologized -- have a right to be hurt and angry, and to address the fact that he has hurt them?
If we cannot agree to this, on what grounds can anyone possibly criticize someone here for "hurting" or "attacking" Card?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I was never as surprised as some to learn that OSC was a Mormon (though like you, Leonide, I learned it years after reading the Ender novels), and perhaps stranger still that I hold the opinion that many of the ideas expressed in the Ender saga-the whole saga-are in fact compatible with Card's religious beliefs.
When I take a step back, so to speak, I realize that perhaps it should be surprising, but it still isn't. *shrug*
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posted
I didn't mention that in fact, upon reflection, I realized that the idea of the eternal souls "aiuas" and many other aspects of the Saga are very LDS in nature -- in fact, I'm sure that's why so many Mormons are attracted to his works and come to post in his forum.
I was merely speaking from the point of view of someone who got something completely different from what may have been the intended ideology.
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posted
If you delete the thread Annie, you delete *everyone's* posts...not just the ones that upset you.
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quote:You can say it as often as you like, but that doesn't make it true.
Why not just stick your hands in your ears and say, "Nyahh, nyahh, nyahh!"
At least then those of us who might have taken you seriously won't be fooled into thinking you have an actual point. Or argument.
You know, Squicky, you can say as often as you like that you don't think that the living room metaphor for Hatrack is appropriate. However-- the definition for what Hatrack is or isn't is ultimately in OSC's hands. He has not called this place a mall, a public square, or a meeting house-- he HAS called it his living room, I think.
What do you plan to do about that?
Tom-- I think you're smart enough to know why OSC has not apologized to individual people for comments directed at a general group.
Else we'd have to expect an apology from every person who called Mormons or traditional Christians bigots for their stance on homosexual marriage.
And what a stir that would create.
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quote:But to follow up on that, the idea that I did something wrong because someone got angry or hurt or otherwise upset because of my remarks is exactly what OSC was talking about in his column...
You keep saying this Squicky, but in fact what OSC was talking about wasn't that you should be brutally honest with everyone, but that you shouldn't give false praise. He even explains in detail (for such a short column) about giving real praise and then mixing in criticism. "That was a really good round-off Billy, and you moved skillfully into the cartwheel, though maybe we'll have to work on the finish there a little." Not: "Did you practice at all for this routine?" I don't think you were right (or wrong, I don't know enough on the subject) but being right is not an excuse for being rude.
Now I know you've said you didn't think it was rude, but I really don't understand how "Does he do any research?" can be construed as anything but rude. I know I've said things here I'm not proud of and should've rephrased, especially when I was upset, which is more likely to happen when something I'm deeply involved in is attacked, and if that's what happened then that's fair, apologize and move on. I take it though, that's not what you were claiming happened, and like I said, I just can't understand how it wasn't rude.
[Disclaimer: The example OSC gives are for children, since that was what the article was about, I don't think we have to take the same approach with adults, though I don't think it would hurt, but being rude or insulting isn't OK no matter the age.]
[EDIT: Squicky, in thinking on it, it seems you've tried to explain why what you said wasn't rude, but everytime I read it all I'm able to see is why you were right, which is, as I've said, not the same thing. So if you're dissparring of a way of showing why it wasn't rude, there's some helpful advice as to where my hang-up is. ]
posted
OSC may have called Hatrack his living room, but that doesn't mean he treats it as such.
Should we react to what he says it is, or how he treats it? Because I think the warehouse analogy is a little more appropriate.
Not to mention the fact that there are different kinds of "living rooms" -- for instance, the living room in the house I grew up in was the family gathering place with an inviting atmosphere that everyone (everyone, even Dad) felt comfortable chatting/hanging out in.
Whereas my grandmother's living room had a floor for the kids to play on, but nobody better sit on any of the chairs or touch her knickknacks or DEATH!
posted
If this forum his his living room I don't think reproducing copies of the essays he publishes in a conservitive newspaper on the front-page to be equivelant to lecturing to those of us assembeled here. Or even the same as the posting we're doing here.
posted
As the owner of Hatrack: The Warehouse, OSC has every right to post millions of inflamatory articles in every possible location on the site.
If I've taken anything he's said personally, it was with the understanding that he never meant to attack me personally.
I don't think anyone's arguing that OSC is purposefully singling out Hatrackers and mocking them in his articles.
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posted
Hey anticool, just wondering where you live, you seem to have mistyped it in your profile or the forum software didn't like what you typed (it just reads " I' " )
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posted
Hypothetically speaking, is it possible for me to crap in my own living room?
Lets say I'm hosting a party and invite all my friends, and tell them to invite all THEIR friends, and that its ok for the friends to invite their own friends... and then after a few hours of the party, I call everyone together, say "As host, I'd like to say a few words... everyone who thinks that my carpet is an ugly color is a traitor to america. Not only that, those people are illogical, and don't have a reason for thinking that my carpet is an ugly color. Oh, and I'm sorry, but all your friends will be at this party for the next 3 years, and enjoy the punch."
Am I crapping in my own living room?
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posted
If you're concerned about OSC's manners, prove you are better than that by acting better than that.
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posted
Oh, I know I'm rude. I never said I'm not. I was horribly rude to Irami in the other thread when I posted the eye-rolling smiley. He's welcome to call me on it.
I am much better about it than I used to be, though.
Are you saying that you're not?
[ February 16, 2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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posted
I think Hobbe's analogy is much closer to the mark. He hasn't rounded us up -- he's gone and published an article in a conservative newsletter, and left some copies on the coffee table.
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quote:I don't think reproducing copies of the essays he publishes in a conservitive newspaper on the front-page to be equivelant to lecturing to those of us assembeled here. Or even the same as the posting we're doing here.
This is a very important point. He doesn't come into the forum and start topics on these things. He writes his column and provides a link to it on the front page of his site. We are welcome to come and register for his forums to discuss books, films, food and culture, and we think that railing about how uninformed our host is is appropriate because we're being scholarly.
You'll notice that he's the only one in this scenario (myself included) that's not arguing about anything.
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posted
No, I'm not saying I'm not rude. But when I call people on being rude, I tend to include myself in the list of people who ARE rude. You portray yourself as a righteous hall monitor... yet you're one of the most consistently rude posters, and very rarely get called on it.
ANd hypocricy, to me, is far far worse then being rude.
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Except not in the insult-Card's-wife-so-brutally-right-before-his-death-that-his-sister-smacks-me-a-good-one way. Just in the blind worshipfullness way ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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I don't really pay much attention to what toothpaste my Optometrist reccommends, either. It might be the best toothpaste and he might be right, but that's not why I go see him.![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
