posted
"To whoever said he'd like to hang out with Card--why, for the love of God?"
Because he's actually rather witty, intelligent, and pleasant, and isn't quite as ascerbic when he's looking you in the face.
"Some of you need to realize that an objection to a man's opinion isn't the same thing as an objection to the man's right to hold that opinion."
Sure. And God knows I disagree with him on almost everything, politically; I lean libertarian, and he leans authoritarian. But you've basically come into his house -- a forum he visits occasionally, a forum his family visits often -- and insulted him in a particularly rude and uncouth way.
You aren't the first to do this, believe me. And you certainly aren't the only person here who's not a huge fan of Card's political polemics. But perhaps you would find your views more palatable were you to tone down their presentation a bit, given the setting and audience?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:It is gracious of Card to offer this forum, but it's a bit tiring how the fact is used to address any objections someone may have to his articles.
You didn't state your objections in a clear manner. You stated conclusions about his work with no supporting reasoning, and you did so in an offensive manner. Most of us weren't refuting your opinion, since there was so little of it there to refute. We were calling you rude for your words in the forum he paid for.
posted
People like you sicken me, you are angered by a persons opinions. Fine, don't buy his books. It won't do anything to me, but as soon as you bring it into the public arena, this forum, you are doing the same thing that you accuse him of. I guess you're just alienating everyone that has a distaste for same sex marriage ( but thats all right because they're just evil bigots). Also I wouldn't read my fiction based on what the author thinks, I do so based on the merit of their work. For instance I really don't agree with most of the things Neruda believes in , but I love his poetry.
That and you should really work on your own humility, you come across as a very arrogant and elitist, but thats all right as I'm not one very high in the classes of our society. I doubt you would hold my opinion to be much worth.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I don't know that I could count Scott as a 'friend' per se-- but I have had dinner with him.
He is a gracious and charming host. He is free with kindnesses, and miserly with critiscisms. He is a bit of a performer-- but he is VERY good at it, and frequently allows his show to be stolen. That is the mark of a generous soul.
Quite frankly, Soma, you don't know jack. Or Scott. Either of us. Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I'm really, really annoyed right now, but honestly, how do you respond to a personal attack like the one this guy just wrote — particularly one that does more to prove the point of Card's article than refute it? I mean, if I had to choose between hanging out with a "prude" like Card or a "way cool guy" like The Somalian, well ... the choice would be easy
In case anyone missed the irony, I promise you, Card is anything but a "prude" ... but he IS an honorable man who holds himself to a high standard of behavior, and values his own honor far higher than he values something at fleeting as being seen as "cool". It's really sad to realize that this virtue is so completely lost on some people, and it's even sadder that for someone like The Somalian, the desire to be one of the "cool guys" is so much stronger. I would love to have seen that kid in middle school So pitiful ...
[ July 15, 2004, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Often Card's solution to problems of bad behavior is for a community to shun the person committing them. The question is, will I be shunned? I really like this place and how everybody is so close...like neighbors.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Often Card's solution to problems of bad behavior is for a community to shun the person committing them. The question is, will I be shunned? I really like this place and how everybody is so close...like neighbors.
Does anyone else think that the Somalian is being a hipocrite here? He doesn't like OSC anymore, and says he doesn't want anything to do with him, or read anymore of his stuff...but he wants to be a part of hatrack? One thing we all have in common is that we like OSC, or at least his writing. He also complains that OSC is "alienating" his fans, and yet he comes in here and alienates people at hatrack, and expects to be welcomed with open arms and treated like a close neighbor?
Well, you've come in here and given personal insult to a person whom many of us admire. What do you *expect* us to think of you? How do you *expect* us to respond, when you attack our friend?
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
I don't know, um, condescending nonchalance, perhaps? Please let me in your club...I'll be a good boy, I will.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
After reading the_Somalian's posts, I am trying to decide whether his rants are supposed to be an attempt at parody. Because I just couldn't help laughing at how utterly ironic they all are.
You accuse Card of being fiercly conservative and horribly biased and yet you cannot see you are just as guilty of the same qualities you have accused him of. You say you are disgusted by the judgemental tone of Card's essays yet you have shown in your posts that you possess that same antagonistic self-righteousness. You've made your mind up that this guy must be a jerk because of his political views. Because he's such a die-hard conservative and so insensitive in his essays he must be a pompous asshole. How would you know? You've never met the guy.
You can't see that you've already managed to discredit the basis of your argument because you're as biased as you're accusing Card of being.
Listen carefully to how you say things next time.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: You accuse Card of being fiercly conservative and horribly biased and yet you cannot see you are just as guilty of the same qualities you have accused him of. You say you are disgusted by the judgemental tone of Card's essays yet you have shown in your posts that you possess that same antagonistic self-righteousness.
Comparing S's posts to Card's self-promotional diatribes is like comparing Ebert's film reviews to Spielberg's self-indulgent masterpieces.
come on!
we don't hold flick reviewer's up to the same scrutiny as we do our cultural demogogues!
quote: The fact that this is Card's forum is a total non-issue. I am getting very tired of people buttressing their viewpoints by stating the obvious fact that people have a right to hold opinion contrary to it. Of course I have a right to disagree. It is gracious of Card to offer this forum, but it's a bit tiring how the fact is used to address any objections someone may have to his articles.
You never said what your objections were, just that you didn't like his articles. And you did it in a manner to suggest that he didn't have the right to post his opinions on a site that he pays for himself. Not what you said, which has been little, but how you said it.
quote:Judging from his political essays, he's judgmental, self-important and quite the pompous asshole whose grandiose notions of himself as some sort of Speaker for anything and everything that makes Conservatism so repugnant to half the nation made me seriously reconsider my love for his fiction.
And what exact ally does any of that have to do with his fiction? It can't be that you disagree with his books, because you have said that you liked his writing, and came here because of it.
quote: Often Card's solution to problems of bad behavior is for a community to shun the person committing them.
What would you recommend he do....not to you, he doesn't even know you exist, but in general? If a community doesn't like a behavior, how else would they stop it from happening?
quote: Additionally, his blind support of the Israel is, like with many other of his political views, simplistic and dumb. You would think somebody who professes to know a lot about history would learn to appreciate the fact that not everything is so black and white.
That's odd, your opinion of his views seem to be all black and no white. You should appreciate that complex issues like Israel aren't that simple, and not everyone who disagrees with your "solutions" (not that we have heard any from you) isn't necessarily simple or dumb.
quote: Card should leave political commentary to those who are less acerbic than him and more appreciative of the fact that if you're trying to win people over to your views, it is best not to use an approach that confirms their fears about you.
quote:Comparing S's posts to Card's self-promotional diatribes is like comparing Ebert's film reviews to Spielberg's self-indulgent masterpieces.
come on!
we don't hold flick reviewer's up to the same scrutiny as we do our cultural demogogues!
So maybe I was a tinsy bit harsh in my comparison. Maybe a mild shock will serve to get the point across to him.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:So maybe I was a tinsy bit harsh in my comparison. Maybe a mild shock will serve to get the point across to him.
Oh, I don't think you were harsh. Just inaccurate in your assessment. And, truth be told, I'm not sure you knew what your point was other than casting aspersions (sp?).
posted
No Temari, I think you were spot on (not bad for a nOOb.. )....ironic that he complains about Card being offensive and rude in an offensive and rude manner himself, huh?
Fallow, that isn't a good comparison. Civility isn't hard...you just have to respect others enough to use it.
Disagree with whatever you want, most of us have. I hated his article on homosexuality, and though there was some very shoddy logic in it; Chris was right when he posted about the straw man comparisons OSC made. However, I didn't write a thread calling OSC names, did I? And I am not a very good writer at all.
I just respect OSC's right to post his opinions on a site he pays for. After all, he lets me post here too, and I don't pitch in a dime for upkeep.
If you want to disagree with something go ahead and do so....but please make sure you are specific if you really want responses that address your concerns. Don't just say someone is a butt-head, and then expect us all to thank you for it.
posted
As I've aged I find it more and more tedious to get worked up about another person's opinion. I can still get into a friendly disagreement with close friends but that's about it.
I find it almost juvenile to deprive yoursself of something you enjoy simply because you disagree with OSC's political stance. If you try really hard I'll bet you can narrow down your reading choices to a bare minimum, like only things you have personally penned.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: Because he's actually rather witty, intelligent, and pleasant, and isn't quite as ascerbic when he's looking you in the face.
I'd say he's actually very witty. At the book signing in Forest City, NC a while back, he made my son laugh and pay attention, which is not exactly the easiest thing to do.
My son made the comment "I liked him mom, he was not boring at all".
Hey...if children and small animals like you, you can't be all that bad.
*can only verify the children part of that statement*
quote:I would just like to say one thing. The fact that this is Card's forum is a total non-issue. I am getting very tired of people buttressing their viewpoints by stating the obvious fact that people have a right to hold opinion contrary to it. Of course I have a right to disagree. It is gracious of Card to offer this forum, but it's a bit tiring how the fact is used to address any objections someone may have to his articles.
No, it's not a non-issue. You can get tired all you like, but you were making some very personal and obviously untrue-to wit, this forum's sponsorship for YOU-insults and criticisms about the man. And people weren't using his sponsorship to object to your opinions, which were stated rudely and without addressing Card's real issues. They were responding mostly to the tone of your post.
quote:At any rate, my hate for Card's political viewpoints stems from the fact that they're so emblematic of the stubborn, simple minded and self-righteous wing of conservatism.
And my contempt for yours stems from the fact that stubborn, simple- and single-minded, self-righteous thought on BOTH sides of that spectrum. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cards' ownership of the place.
You go on shuddering in disgust, since it makes you feel even more smugly superior than you already are. I'll try to tamp down my worry and regret about how you feel Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Oh, I don't think you were harsh. Just inaccurate in your assessment. And, truth be told, I'm not sure you knew what your point was other than casting aspersions
This may be my favourite post on Hatrack in a long time. It can be applied to so many posts on Hatrack, both those that defame and those that sprinkle holy water.
As for this
quote:One thing we all have in common is that we like OSC, or at least his writing
I'm pretty confident in saying that's untrue. One thing we all have in common is that we like each other, or at least each other's writing. At the end of the day this is an exercise in community building, not an OSC fansite. Not saying that you can run amok saying whatever you please about Card, you can't do that to anyone on this board. Ideally (my ideal, clearly) he would be treated with the same standards we hold for everyone else.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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