quote:Originally posted by Strider: Also worth questioning is how many people are really "celebrating the death of Bin Laden" as opposed to celebrating "closure to the situation", "succeeding in our mission", or something like that.
quote:Never say never, Humean. It's a fine, noble ideal to strive for - I really do mean that - but how sure are you you rate with the saints for whom that 'never' is really true?
I don't really know, maybe I should have said that I hope I would never do so, but I'm just not sure either way.
I do think that ideals and beliefs are only true for a person if they hold those ideals even in the hardest and most extreme of times. If you claim that you hold civil rights up as a basic human ideal, then you can't then break that ideal when things become difficult. If that's the case, then you really never ascribed to that belief, you just thought you did.
As human beings, we grow and change, we become better or worse, we fail and we succeed, we accomplish the extraordinary and fail to live up to the notions which we believe make us great, and through it all we realize that the best we can do is simply try. Try our best to be what we set out to be.
For me, I try my best, and I know that I fail. I make no claims otherwise, but I do sincerely hope that I will never revel in the death of any human being. I will try to be that human being. Because I think that's the right thing to do.
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"This September 11, on the Tenth Anniversary, the observances at Ground Zero and elsewhere will now be much more positive..."
I don't often say this, but excellent point, Ron.
Posted by @jimformanKING5 on Twitter: "9/11 widow on my flight. In tears. Comforted by entire cabin. Life altering event to see."
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Well here's a question that one of the newscasters just suggested: Does this give Obama a pretext for beginning a drawdown of forces from Afghanistan. In other words, can we move the goal posts and call it a win? He was already planning to pull troops soon, but can he push that more now, with less risk of being attacked for being weak on defense?
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I really don't know how to feel.
I don't want to open up a can of worms here...I wouldn't call myself a "truther" but I also wouldn't say I believe for a second the "official story" of how 9/11 went down.
What do you think happened?
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I really don't know how to feel.
I don't want to open up a can of worms here...I wouldn't call myself a "truther" but I also wouldn't say I believe for a second the "official story" of how 9/11 went down.
What do you think happened?
Please don't encourage him on this one.
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Anyone think there's a connection between Obama choosing to release his birth certificate last week and this announcement?
It strikes me that it's interesting to get that out of the way as a possible way to get maximum effect from THIS announcement.
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For one thing, the hole Pentagon was not shaped like a jumbo jet, and if the building was strong enough to sheer off the wings and the tail, where where they? Where were the turbine engines?
It seemed like a drone or missile strike.
In other words, I believe that it was not a passenger jet that struck the Pentagon
I watched several versions of "Loose Change", all of which included footage of flashes seen through the windows of the towers before they fell going down floor after floor, and they looked like cutting charges going off. I'm not positive about this cliam, but it looked pretty suspicious.
The third flight which went down, the footage from it looked to be lacking even basic plane parts from the crash, no seats, no wings, no bodies, no turbines.
I don't claim to know what happened. I only believe that the story which was presented as the whole truth seemed to be lacking by what evidence I saw.
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quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: Please don't encourage him on this one.
I am really not trying to start any controversy, I'm not pushing any agenda. The official 9/11 story just didn't seem to add up for me, so bin Laden being killed left me feeling ambiguous.
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I thought samprimary (or maybe it was someone else) had recently posted the link that completely debunks all those theories. I can't remember what website it was at. Maybe he'll come along and post it.
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: For one thing, the hole Pentagon was not shaped like a jumbo jet, and if the building was strong enough to sheer off the wings and the tail, where where they? Where were the turbine engines?
It seemed like a drone or missile strike.
In other words, I believe that it was not a passenger jet that struck the Pentagon
I watched several versions of "Loose Change", all of which included footage of flashes seen through the windows of the towers before they fell going down floor after floor, and they looked like cutting charges going off. I'm not positive about this cliam, but it looked pretty suspicious.
The third flight which went down, the footage from it looked to be lacking even basic plane parts from the crash, no seats, no wings, no bodies, no turbines.
I don't claim to know what happened. I only believe that the story which was presented as the whole truth seemed to be lacking by what evidence I saw.
Man, every one of these arguments has been debunked.
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I'm open to it. It would be simpler and it would make my home life better (my wife has banned me from speaking of any possibility that 9/11 went down any way other then the official story) to go with the common belief.
I watched a show on NatGeo about debunking the "truthers" and they had a few good points which changed my mind (the pit of jet fuel bending a steel beam like it was made of plastic was very convincing), but some of it was not well done and truly inconclusive.
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quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: Am I the only one who actually feels a little wary right now?
Nope. I get gratitude and relief and cautious hope but the glee makes me uncomfortable on several levels.
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This is the first I've heard the news. I have mixed feelings.
If this had happened in the first couple years after 9/11, I think I might have felt relieved and justified at the news.
But all these years later, after all the deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, I don't know how I feel about this. I haven't thought much about bin Laden in years. There is too much else going on to feel much satisfaction from this one event. I suppose I just don't see how his death makes anything better.
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quote:For one thing, the hole Pentagon was not shaped like a jumbo jet, and if the building was strong enough to sheer off the wings and the tail, where where they? Where were the turbine engines?
It seemed like a drone or missile strike.
In other words, I believe that it was not a passenger jet that struck the Pentagon
You have some serious reality blinkers. Hundreds, probably thousands of people saw the plane head at the Pentagon. There are numerous photos available of bits of wing and tail scattered all over the area in front of the Pentagon. The turbine engines were mostly embedded a few rings into the building; they were solid bits that kept going and damaging things.
In fact, you can find photos of all sorts of bits of plane, including numerous ones of the engines and bits of fuselage and such, right here: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1 , which collects the copious amounts of information that were all over the news shortly after 9/11. There are a ton of eyewitness accounts, too.
Your belief that it was not a passenger jet that struck the Pentagon is a bad belief. It shows a complete lack of engagement with reality. I suggest seriously re-evaluating why you hold such a belief, when it is entirely inconsistent with the evidence. Several of the things you ask where they went can be seen in dozens of readily available photos!
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: Stone_Wolfe_, over 100 eye witnesses are on record as seeing an aircraft hit the Pentagon.
I really shouldn't do this as I am NOT one of the believers in this conspiracy BUT,
I can find over 100 eyewitnesses/victims of alien abduction, bigfoot, lochness, etc. too.
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Blayne Bradley
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I think whats more important about the Loose Change video are the various allegations at the government's general shadiness, untrustworthiness and willingness to attempt to pull off something similar if they felt they could get away with it. The "Even if 5% of this is true..." concept.
The final conclusions of the video, while for sure more or less discredited by this point in time doesn't in my mind disqualify some of the more real questions unintentionally raised.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: my wife has banned me from speaking of any possibility that 9/11 went down any way other then the official story
I am relieved that your children have at least one parent who isn't bent on believing as many irrational things as possible.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: ... My mind goes back to the shameful people in Gaza who were dancing in the streets after 911. Now dancing in the streets are Americans ...
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I find myself very angry...with the people behind "Loose Change"...with myself for not looking into it further and for rivka for saying this crap.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I am relieved that your children have at least one parent who isn't bent on believing as many irrational things as possible.
I'm very glad this is the internet and not in person, because I would have a very hard time not punching you in the face for saying this to me.
I really should not have just watched a few vids online and said...there...proof...bad on me. Kinda have to change my view on some big stuff...and I'm bleary eyed from not sleeping...and very emotional about...my wrong beliefs about our nation's biggest tragedy...I scoffed and rolled my eyes when people called the passengers on flight 93 heroes and thought I knew better.
F me...I don't even know what to do with all this.
I can say this much...I promise to research more before deciding what I believe in the future.
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Blayne Bradley
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Well wait, the video is not without merit, the history related stuff of US black ops I think shouldn't be discounted, thats still pretty serious stuff even if its not really related to their main point.
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quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: Am I the only one who actually feels a little wary right now?
Nope. I get gratitude and relief and cautious hope but the glee makes me uncomfortable on several levels.
Does that mean you didnt expect this? I don't see how it's comparable to the dancing and parades that happened on 9/11 either. On 9/11 several airlines full of civilian men, women, and children were used to murder even more men and women, 3000+, today, the leader of the organization that gleefully put into action that murderous rampage was killed as he had lived, with bullets.
Civilians going to work, at work etc on one side, homicidal maniac whod spent the past 16 years trying to kill as many apostates, and westerners as possible on the other side.
It's not even remotely comparable, the justifications for celebrating.
I am leery, and a bit nervous as I have no idea if there are sleeper cells about to wake up in response to this news, and Im not sure what will go down now that he's dead. How the leadership vacuum will be filled, etc, and what the new leadership will do. Lastly, it's always seemed as if Al-Zawahiri was the brains behind the organization, whereas Osama was the charismatic front man. Al Qaeda is not dead yet, just one of its two most important leaders.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Well wait, the video is not without merit, the history related stuff of US black ops I think shouldn't be discounted, thats still pretty serious stuff even if its not really related to their main point.
"Not without merit?" Seriously?
That movie about how the holocaust is fake had great cinematography!
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Stone Wolf, don't beat yourself up about it. Just try and do better in the future. I know I have been wrong, badly wring, a few time in my life and it sucks.
It's fine....even admirable....to questions things. I never take anything an news program states as the whole truth, for instance, even if they have been reliable in the past. I try to see other sides, other angles, and find multiple sources for things that matter to me.
It's been an emotional day for me too, so some very personal reasons.
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This "rejoicing" is simply disgusting. I think it was just to kill him, but that's all. How can people be so cruel and... ahh.
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I thought Dick Cheney's response, quoted in this article, was particularly gracious:
quote:I also want to congratulate President Obama and the members of his national security team. At this moment when bin Laden has been brought to justice, we especially remember the sacrifice of the young Americans who’ve paid the ultimate price in defense of the nation, as well as the nearly 3000 Americans who lost their lives on 9/11.
All in all, the Republican leaders quoted have expressed nothing but admiriation and gratitude for a job well done, mostly to the servicemen and women, but also to the President.
<edit>I haven't seen a response from Trump yet, but I imagine if anyone's willing to make a bombastic statement about how this proves the President is doing a terrible job, it'll be Trump. I also haven't seen anything from the nattering class; it could be Andrew Breitbart et al. are writing all sorts of shallow analyses of how this is no big deal. But the leadership response thus far has been dramatically different from the crass and callous responses that Lyrhawn had been expecting.</edit>
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I'm just worried that the whole burial at sea, (while I think it was a very sensible thing to do), will lead to the next lot of birther-esque theorizing. Habeas corpus and all that.
Sort of like all those who believed that Hitler was still living in Argentina or whatever.
Having said that, I think giving the guy an Islamic burial has probably saved lives and increased respect in the Islamic world for the USA.
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To expound, he should have been trialed, like Nuremberg or sth, but it would have been difficult to catch him alive, I think.
To Samprimary: I could understand that people would be happy about killing him if he was a serious threat, because that would mean that threat is no more. He was no threat, they are just happy because he is dead.
These pictures of those people laughing and cheering and drinking and singing looked a lot like those of the terrorists in 2001. That's all.
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quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: I'm just worried that the whole burial at sea, (while I think it was a very sensible thing to do), will lead to the next lot of birther-esque theorizing. Habeas corpus and all that.
Sort of like all those who believed that Hitler was still living in Argentina or whatever.
Having said that, I think giving the guy an Islamic burial has probably saved lives and increased respect in the Islamic world for the USA.
Was it sensible though? I agree that you needed to follow Islamic tradition and bury him within a day, but at sea??? I just don't know. Wouldn't it have been worth the price of a super fast jet to NOT let the rumors start?
On the other hand, where could we have buried him? It doesn't seem right to bury him on US Soil and if we buried him in a less controversial nation then you have to worry about body snatchers and all that...
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quote:Originally posted by Miro: This is the first I've heard the news. I have mixed feelings.
If this had happened in the first couple years after 9/11, I think I might have felt relieved and justified at the news.
But all these years later, after all the deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, I don't know how I feel about this. I haven't thought much about bin Laden in years. There is too much else going on to feel much satisfaction from this one event. I suppose I just don't see how his death makes anything better.
I guess I'm hoping his death DOES make things better because it does take out a symbol. I don't feel like going out and partying, but I do feel a sort of cautious hope that this might mean we're closer to the end of the war. Even though we haven't heard much about him lately, our inability to FIND him was a sign of weakness that our enemies could capitalize on.
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quote: On the other hand, where could we have buried him? It doesn't seem right to bury him on US Soil and if we buried him in a less controversial nation then you have to worry about body snatchers and all that...
More to the point, his grave would almost certainly have become a site of pilgrimage or, yes, desecration. It would have been a massive headache for everyone.
Burial at sea seems a better option. But this in itself will cause problems. I just hope they took photos of the body (and that there was enough left to recognize) to debunk the theorists. Because there's been enough of that recently.
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I heard on NPR that other nations would not take the body and it is acceptable in Islam to bury a body at sea.
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Really, I just hope Obama kept the spine and toes, so that he can wear them like a ceremonial headdress the next time we need the hoi polloi to dance on the White House lawn.
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quote: I can say this much...I promise to research more before deciding what I believe in the future.
I think it is to your credit that having been confronted you: 1) Examined the presented evidence. 2) Adjusted your beliefs accordingly. 3) Admitted you were wrong.
A large portion who get caught up in conspiracy theory nonsense just dig themselves in deeper when presented with evidence that disproves their claims.
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quote:Originally posted by Szymon: To expound, he should have been trialed, like Nuremberg or sth, but it would have been difficult to catch him alive, I think.
To Samprimary: I could understand that people would be happy about killing him if he was a serious threat, because that would mean that threat is no more. He was no threat, they are just happy because he is dead.
These pictures of those people laughing and cheering and drinking and singing looked a lot like those of the terrorists in 2001. That's all.
No it doesn't. In 2001 people were rejoicing after seeing thousands of normal fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters die, while at work on a tuesday.
Last night, people were celebrating the death of a man that dedicated his life to killing anyone that didn't agree with his philosophy, in the most heinous ways possible.
How can anyone not see the difference here? Not notice the details involved. This is apples and oranges, not apples and apples.
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posted
One can see the details, but it depends on one's moral framework whether that makes a difference.
For example, consider the capital punishment debate. There are those that consider capital punishment, even for those convicted for the most heinous of crimes to be immoral. In that light, it is understandable that some of those that do not approve of capital punishment might find public celebration of it to be distasteful.
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